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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Does your local corner store look a little bit different these days? In some Manhattan and Brooklyn neighborhoods and even in a few parts of Queens in the Bronx, a new type of business may have opened up in a once familiar storefront. These are quick-service delivery app fulfillment centers. "Quick service," meaning 15 minutes to get your groceries or less. That's what they advertise.

Unlike the bodegas they might have replaced on the block, you typically can't enter one of these delivery hubs. They're what's called "dark stores." To name a few, there's Buyk pronounced like bicycle, bike, but it's B-U-Y like you buy something with a K at the end. Buyk merging "bicycle" and "to buy." There's Gorillas, have seen that one, used it. As of yesterday, DoorDash's new DashMart.

With me now is Gale Brewer, city council member-elect for Manhattan's District 6 on the Upper West Wide and currently finishing up her term as Manhattan borough president. Her office has been conducting inspections of these quick-service delivery services that some of the bodegas and advocates for bodegas are worried are going to put real stores, neighborhood stores out of business. Hi, Borough President, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Gale Brewer: Thank you very much, Brian. Delighted to be on.

Brian: Before you announce any results of your office's inspections of these delivery services, can you start by adding a little context? Where are these delivery apps setting up shop in the city? How many of these storefront hubs are there even just in Manhattan since you're the Manhattan borough president? This concept is going to be familiar to some people, but new to a lot of others.

Gale: Yes, there are about 22 in the borough of Manhattan. I was at one last night and it was full of groceries in the back and scooters in the front indoors. That's the image that you have. They are places like Cortlandt Alley, East 125th Street, West 37th Street, West Street, Delancey, West 14th, at least two on Broadway that I know of. Spring Street, Grand Street, Frederick Douglass Boulevard, Warrington. Again, in some cases, two of three on each one of these streets. 22 just in the borough of Manhattan.

Brian: What's really new here? A lot of grocery stores, supermarkets during the pandemic will deliver groceries. Target delivers. There's FreshDirect, a little more high-end. What's really new here?

Gale: There are three things that are new. First of all, if I want to order from FreshDirect, it's in the Bronx. It's in a warehousing district. The zoning complies with FreshDirect, number one. These particular stores, dark stores, fulfillment stores, I believe that only three of the ones I just listed are actually in manufacturing districts. All the rest of them are in retail commercial districts that I've never seen a warehouse. You're not supposed to have a warehouse. That's the district zoning.

Number two, I can't go in. Last night, I tried to go in. I'm trying to be nosy and I tried to get in one. The gentleman on the bicycle couldn't have been nicer. I was taking photographs. He said, "You can't go in, but would you like a $20 gift certificate?" I said, "No, thank you," but I can't go in. I can go into a bodega. I can go into a grocery store. I can't go in. The third issue, which is particularly egregious, the store windows are all closed with paper.

When I go to a bodega, yes, there might be a sign saying, "We're open" or "We have a great beer." I go to a grocery store. You got a special on the eggs, but you can go in. You can't go in. The stores are all covered, which I don't even think is legal in terms of what they say because they're just paper on them. Also, I saw stored bikes. All of the bicycles that are usually outdoors are in with the food. I saw that last night with my own eyes. That seems to me not healthy and certainly has concerns for me.

Finally, something that's not different but of concern. I now see on many of the food packs on the back of people bicycling around, "Get your food in 15 minutes." We're already having so many challenges with these wonderfully, hardworking delivery people. As you know, because your readers and your listeners complain, they're going so fast. Now, if I have to get my eggs or my macaroni and cheese in 15 minutes, you're right. I'm going to go fast. That's different than the delivery people. If I'm ordering food, I don't need it in 15 minutes. Nobody's telling me that I'm going to get it. This list is so long as to what's wrong.

Brian: Do you object that there is what seems like warehouse space in residential neighborhoods? If they made the outside more aesthetically pleasing, then papering up the windows like you were describing. If they store the bicycles in a sanitary way, I guess you were implying it might contaminate some of the food. Does it matter who gets hurt if there are delivery services for groceries with the warehouses where they're storing the stuff you don't go in and shop, and they're delivering to the local neighborhood? Who gets hurt?

Gale: Well, the bodegas and the grocery stores. Let me be specific because this particular zoning is not allowed. We actually do have rules. I think as I said, only 3 of the 22 are zoned in the correct area. Everybody else is in a retail/commercial area. That's illegal. Now, of course, we haven't heard from the agencies. We sent a letter to, I don't know, five or six agencies saying, "What's going on here?"

City planning, buildings, liquor authority, health department, consumer affairs and we're waiting for a meeting, which we apparently will hear about soon. It seems to me that this is a disruptor and I understand that, but the city agency should be on top of this. The answer to your question is there's more than just you can't go in the store. I find that if you're on a commercial strip, there's a reason to have that zoning. You and I want to walk in, see what's going on, make it part of the streetscape, the landscape. That's what commercial zoning is.

That's why it's good to have FreshDirect in a manufacturing area. That's where they belong. That's what these belong. You want to do it in a manufacturing area, fine, but that's not what the purpose of a commercial strip is. It's to have activity. There's no activity here. The only activity is somebody standing outside telling me I can't go in. That's the activity and it's very deadly to have that kind of streetscape. There are many issues here. That's just one of them, but it is illegal as far as I can tell. We're waiting to hear officially from the city agencies.

Brian: Listeners, we can take your calls on quick-service food delivery. Not cooked food, but grocery delivery apps. If you use them or if you work at a storefront business like a bodega that feels threatened by them or if you work for one of these delivery services, maybe you're a gig worker who works there yourself or maybe you own one, help us report this story. My guest is Manhattan Borough President Gale Brewer, who has just released a study on these delivery services and, obviously, has concerns.

212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692 or tweet at @BrianLehrer. Borough President, here's an article from Eater from a week or two ago. The website Eater headlined some bodega owners fear 15-minute grocery delivery apps could put them out of business. Is it actually happening? Have you learned of Manhattan bodegas that have gone out of business because people aren't going to the corner anymore? They're ordering from these delivery apps?

Gale: I haven't heard that, but I've heard from the bodegas and they're extremely concerned and I am too. They are our lifeline. They're owned by a local individual. These so-called dark stores are owned by big people who are from Germany in one case or they're VCs or hedge fund owners with billions of dollars to run these dark stores. That's very different than the bodega where we have been going for years as New Yorkers and love the owner. The owner sometimes takes pay later and you sign in the book. You know him. He's from the neighborhood.

I feel very strongly that they could go out of business and so these are new. These dark stores are new, but they're very, very challenging in terms of disruptor. I have to be honest. The grocery stores and the bodegas and the delis are the backbone of our city. They're owned locally. They give us service that is beyond even the groceries and the opportunities that we get in that store. During the pandemic, in my neighborhood, they were my lifeline, the two that I have. We do not want them to go out of business. I don't think this is the way to go in terms of these disruptors.

Brian: Some people might say it's good that these apps are setting up shop in retail spaces that have gone empty. So many empty storefronts in the city due to the economic toll of the pandemic. If this is a way that creative entrepreneurs are finding to set up new businesses to take these empty storefronts and serve people in a way that they find serves them, maybe that part is a good thing?

Gale: I know that there are a lot of vacancies. I do know that these particular dark stores that I've seen are huge. They're really very large. They could be for grocery. They have to be for something that the zoning allows. Yes, we certainly have a vacancy issue, but I don't think when you bring in an enterprise that's illegal for the zoning that they should be allowed to be there. I think you can't break the law and they're doing that as far as I'm concerned.

Brian: Carla in Long Island City, you're on WNYC with Gale Brewer. Hi, Carla.

Carla: Hi there. Thank you so much for taking my call. I just really appreciate this conversation. I was telling your screener that my closest grocery store closed before the pandemic. After waiting so many months for things to reopen, what reopened in its space was one of these delivery services. It is so disheartening to have a whole corner totally papered over and not really offering much of anything in terms of charm or accessibility to walk in and experience things in the neighborhood. I totally agree.

Brian: Carla, thank you very much. Robert on the Upper West Side, you're on WNYC. Hi, Robert.

Robert: Hi, I have an additional concern to the very good legitimate concerns that the borough president articulated and that's the exploitation of the people working there. If they can deliver a long list of groceries, pack them up, and get them to you in 10 to 15 minutes, which is something I tried with one of them, the thought is that they must be really exploiting the workers. We've heard this in Amazon warehouses. People feel like robots and they burn out and get very little pay for it, so that's my concern.

Brian: Robert, thank you very much. Have you looked into the employment practices of these apps and dark stores?

Gale: I haven't looked into them specifically, but I've certainly been working with all the delivery workers. They are now working together and I know this is just going to be another challenge. The delivery stores are forming an alliance. Some of them have been killed as you know. They are worried about theft or their bicycles. They're worried about not getting their full wages. This group will even be more challenged, I think, because they have to get somewhere in 15 minutes and it has to be timed. I'm sure they're under unbelievable strain from the hedge fund owners. We're very aware and I actually spent quite a bit of time with these delivery workers.

Brian: Do they employ people? Do you know these apps and dark stores or is the model heavily reliant on the gig worker economy like we've talked so much here? Certainly, in the political sector, people have talked a lot about the bicycle delivery workers in other sectors of retail who are often exploited and now are fighting for their rights.

Gale: I don't know. I've heard mixed, only know what I've read. I think it's mixed in terms of the company, but one would have to do a lot of investigation to see what exactly it would meet, either a gig or a worker employed by the company. I'd have to get an awful lot of details. In addition, even though Amazon workers are employed by Amazon, but they still have a lot of challenges on the warehouses. You could be certainly employed, but it may not be great working conditions. As Robert indicated, they can certainly burn out very quickly.

Brian: Let's take another phone call. Joe in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Joe.

Joe: Hey, what's going on? I just want to say my only interaction with these warehouse supermarkets is that they have a section in the back that they call "write-offs" that they're going to-- I guess it's food that is expiring soon or they can't sell to their customers. They contact me and a friend of mine and we go and pick it up on bicycle and distribute it to the free food fridge network in our area. They've been a pretty good resource in terms of stocking the free food fridges. I'm not someone that really uses apps like that. I don't have an actual customer experience with them, but I picked up at least a hundred pounds of food every time I go there.

Brian: How do you even know that they have food that's available for that kind of donation?

Joe: My friend does a lot of the organizing and I guess he made a contact with someone inside there. They just call him up whenever there's a big rack of food. He sends me a picture. I go pick it up. They're always really nice when I go in there.

Brian: Joe, thank you very much. Borough President, you know what I'm curious about here? I don't know if you have the answer to the question. Why haven't the bodegas themselves and the supermarkets around the city picked up this slack? Why is there even the opportunity for these apps in dark stores? Like I said earlier, I know a lot of supermarkets that maybe didn't use to deliver or maybe only used to deliver if you went in and picked out your groceries in person, but you didn't want to carry them.

They've had that service, but a lot of them have started doing supermarket shelf deliveries during the pandemic and the bodegas themselves perhaps for the people in the immediate neighborhoods. Why do you think they haven't picked up the slack and even created an opening for this kind of sector?

Gale: Well, I know that the bodegas, both the folks from Yemen and the folks who are some of the Latino bodega owners, are now working together. They're working. These two groups in particular, which have their own organizations, are going to be working with apps. They have some commitment, I think, with DoorDash in particular. I just want to be clear. Those bodegas are locally-owned.

They are within the zoning context that is legal of their community. They have been hurt, I think, because they didn't get much federal funding from the PPP because they didn't have QuickBooks at their disposal. They didn't have that ability to be online, which is what you needed in order to get that PPP. I think they have to catch up on the technology. They're not owned by a VC in Germany or in California.

They are now doing exactly what you're suggesting, but I just want to be clear. We want to support them and we want them to be successful. At the same time, these dark stores, like I said over and over again, are not legal. They cover over their windows and they're forcing their workers from what I understand to get everything to you in 10 or 15 minutes, which I hope the bodegas do not do because that's not fair to the workers. We need to work with our local merchants.

Brian: Last question, different topic. You've done eight years now as borough president of Manhattan. Your term limited out and you got reelected to your old city council seats. Are you going to stay in city government? What would you say are one or two or three really big things you learned that your successor can benefit from or that the public might just benefit from knowing that you've learned being a borough-wide official these eight years?

Gale: I appreciate the call. First, I just want you to know that Stanley Isaacs was a borough president, and then he went back to the city council. I'm not the first just so you know that. [chuckles] I would say three things. First of all, the boroughs are really different. I hope in the city council, we can be more borough-oriented because the needs are very different. I love meeting with my other borough presidents on a regular basis, but we have really different aspects to our different boroughs. That was number one.

I think number two is we do need a whole lot more pre-planning on land use. In the borough of Manhattan, we did 200, what we call "ULURPs," which are the land use recommendations. Obviously, it's the final say at the city council, but that's a lot. I can't say that the best I could, we did pre-planning task forces on East Midtown, South Street Seaport, all of the garment center, all these different kinds of pre-planning efforts, but they're hard to then make reality in the final say. We have to have a better process with data and pre-planning for the land use.

I would say the third thing is we have-- I think in Manhattan, we did a great job with appointments because we have environmental, community board, cultural, hospital, school board. We have a thousand people we appoint. Again, we train them as much as we could on parliamentary procedure and budgeting and how to write a resolution, and my topic, which, of course, is civic technology.

It needs more because these are the first eyes and ears in our community. We have to make sure they have more information so they can make better decisions. I think those are three topics. Of course, we all want more housing, health care, better schools, after-school. I'm trying to figure out this workforce development. These are big issues, but they need to have more upfront planning than what I think has happened in the past.

Brian: Gale Brewer, outgoing as Manhattan borough president, incoming as Westside city council member. Thanks for coming on today and talking about the delivery apps and being borough president. Talk to you again in your new role.

Gale: Thank you.

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