[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Many of you know Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne from his writings, or his many appearances on the station as a commentator on All Things Considered. EJ's first column of the New Year was headlined with a question, "Must Democrats get crushed in 2022?" It's a fair way to put it because history suggests that midterm elections after a new president takes office do not go well for that president's party. It happened to the Democrats in Bill Clinton's first midterms in 1994, Barack Obama's first midterms in 2010, Donald Trump's midterms in 2018, and as EJ reminds us in his piece, it happened so badly to George W. Bush during his second midterm elections in 2006. That in his Texas way, he said his party took a thumping.

As often happens with new presidents, Joe Biden's poll numbers have declined during his first year in office. He's around where Trump was after his first year in the range of 40% approval. A new Pew Poll reported on in the Washington Post today finds his approval among Democrats has dropped 20% this year, 20 points, contributing to the overall decline, but must Democrats get crushed? Not necessarily.

We will start there with E.J. Dionne, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, as well as a syndicated columnist for the Washington Post, university professor at Georgetown, visiting professor at Harvard, and co-author of the forthcoming book 100% Democracy: The Case for Universal Voting. Somehow squeezing us in with all of that, EJ, we always learn from you when you're on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

E.J. Dionne: Well, that's so kind of you in there. It's just a few things I enjoy doing more than talking to you, Brian, honest and true. Thank you for having me.

Brian Lehrer: First, historically, why does it happen so often that a new president's party loses congressional elections just two years after the people chose him, after all, to be their leader?

E.J. Dionne: The biggest problem is that the opposition tends to be more mobilized to rebuke the incumbent president than his supporters are to pat him on the back and say, "Great job." Because any president governing particularly in our era, over the last couple of decades, is going to confront a lot of problems. Lord knows Joe Biden has confronted a lot of problems. I'm glad that you opened by pointing out Biden's drop in approval among Democrats, which I think is the first big problem he and his party have to solve.

If you look at the polling, in general, the proportion of people saying they strongly disapprove of Biden is running in the 40s. The proportion who strongly approve of him is running in the 20s, which means that those people who don't like Joe Biden are far more likely to turn out to vote. There was an NBC poll, over the weekend, that showed Republicans considerably more interested in the midterms right now than the Democrats are.

As I see it, Biden Democrats have to solve two quite different problems at the same time. One is demoralization of their own base. Build Back Better didn't pass. The two Voting Rights bills were blocked. Progressives are very unhappy. You could put it as the Democrats who voted enthusiastically for Biden in the election but not in the primaries, those kinds of voters, particularly young voters, also black voters, are saying what did we get out of this? That's one problem on his own side.

Then more middle-ground voters who voted for Biden simply to have better governance or because they thought Trump was a threat to democracy or saying, gee, the pandemic is still with us and we've got economic problems with inflation. He's got to solve the problem he has with his own base and Democrats too, and he's got to solve the problem with middle-ground voters who just aren't happy in general with the way things are going in the country.

Brian Lehrer: On the middle-ground voters, you referred to the Virginia governor's election last November in which 9% of voters who went for Joe Biden in that state, went for the Republican for Governor, Glenn Youngkin. 9% might sound like a lot but in an election that's even marginally close, it's really a lot. Why do you think that happened?

E.J. Dionne: First of all, this turnout problem was real. It wasn't that Democratic turnout was terrible. It actually wasn't bad, but Republican turnout, particularly in rural areas, was off the charts. That was a big piece of it, which really tells us a lot about what could go wrong for Democrats in the midterms. The second thing is Youngkin, very effectively, mobilized parental discontent with school shutdowns and other aspects of public schools.

Yes, he talked about banning critical race theory which he has done. That probably appeal mostly to turning out of the Trump base and turning them out, but other discontents with the schools in suburban areas, seem to have moved some previously Democratic voters his way. I think there's a real opening now for progressives and moderates on those issues because Youngkin and governors like him, like DeSantis down in Florida are taking this to really extraordinary extremes.

Youngkin issued an executive order and he's being sued by the seven of the biggest school districts in the state, saying, "No, they can't require kids to wear masks." That's not why a lot of those voters switched for him, they want to keep the schools open. He has also created this tip line where parents who are unhappy if their kids are made uncomfortable, okay, it's being called a snitch line. This is trying to intimidate teachers. I think there's a real opening now for progressives and moderates alike to come back and say, "Wait a minute, Youngkin look like a moderate guy who spoke for parental discontent. Now, he is following this right-wing agenda."

I think, on a whole lot of issues, part of the task of Democrats is going to be to expose that the Republican agenda, even when somebody like Youngkin succeeds in making it look moderate, is actually still rather Trumpist.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, later in this hour, we're going to be doing a segment explicitly on Governor Glenn Youngkin's new order banning critical race theory. There's other language in there that we will read in the public schools in Virginia. Can you really ban an academic theory from being taught in schools or what else is that really about? We will do a separate segment on that later this hour after E.J. Dionne. We can also take phone calls for E.J. Dionne.

Listeners, if you want, you be the campaign manager for either party. How should each party, your party, whichever it is, run on national themes this year? 212433 WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer, or help us put some human voices on those poll numbers. If you voted for Joe Biden and you're more of a centrist, and you're alienated, describe that for us. If you voted for Joe Biden and you're more in the Democratic base, and you're alienated to any degree, put a human voice on that. If you voted for Joe Biden, and you're still enthusiastic, which, after all, 75% in that Pew Poll of Democrats still support Joe Biden and approve of the job he's doing. You can put a human voice on that. 212433 WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

E.J. Dionne: Brian, could I come in just for a sec?

Brian Lehrer: Sure.

E.J. Dionne: I'm happy to promo a later part of your show. Just to give you a sense of what I'm talking about, I want to read a sentence from a bill that just got cleared by a Senate Committee in Florida about not only the schools but also business training programs. The bill reads, "An individual should not be made to feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, or any form of psychological distress on account of his or her race."

Meaning that if you talk about past racial sins in our country's history, that's a problem. We've been told all these years that it was liberals who were snowflakes ready to ban free speech in the name of feelings. I think this is the kind of thing that's really important for people to speak up and oppose. We can have real debates about exactly how American history needs to be taught, but as you suggested, we're veering here into outright censorship and in some school districts, pulling books off the shelves of schools. This harkens back to the 1950s.

Brian Lehrer: You write that the Democrats' internal struggles over policy, like obviously with Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, on things like voting rights and Build Back Better, are obscuring Biden's first-year accomplishments. Since I'll bet most of our listeners can name the struggles more than the accomplishments, what ones are you referring to?

E.J. Dionne: First of all, you've just pointed to one of the biggest problems Biden and the Democrats have, which is this endless wrangling over Build Back Better, and then having it not even pass into law has obscured both what's in Build Back Better, in the fact that unemployment is down to 3.9% that Biden pointed this out in his news conference over 6 million jobs created.

The infrastructure bill was actually a big deal and will invest a lot of money that we need to invest in, even a lot of Republicans voted for that bill and of course, the rescue bill that originally early on in his administration, which among other things, expanded the Child Tax Credit that cut child poverty by 40% and very, unfortunately, we're not extending that really useful piece of legislation, at least not yet.

I think politics is a, "what have you done for me lately," business? I think there's a limit on what Biden and the Democrats can win back by saying, "Look at all the good things we've done," although they do need to do a better job of selling those. I think they have to go forward and say, "Here's what we're doing to address the problems you're facing now". One of the most useful things he may have done is create that website where you can instantly order testing into your house. They were slow in realizing how important testing was.

Now they made all these N95 masks, I guess, a half a trillion mask are available, something on that order. I think he needs to take concrete steps on his own, if necessary, if he can't get anything through Congress. I think he's got to get some of Build Back Better through, particularly on climate where I think climate, the failure to act on climate is one of those issues that is a really dispiriting, especially but not exclusively, younger voters who backed Biden in 2020.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Jim in Brick, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jim.

Jim: Oh, good morning. Hello to E.J. I enjoy listening to him.

E.J. Dionne: Thank you.

Jim: To state the obvious that this president's numbers are being generated against the fact that the prior president has not abided by the election. The numbers started to go down with the so-called Afghan debacle, which it was, but it wasn't his fault. Biden was committed to the realistic attitude of the overseas displacement of military having had a son in the military, which is rather rare. It upsets me that he gets blamed for the method that was negotiated by Trump, the 5,000 Afghan prisoners that were released from the three prisons in Pakistan. The fact that then it was a [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Jim, let me interrupt just for time. You told our screener that these are, as you see them unprecedented midterms after the big lie, how does that inform the way you think?

Jim: Oh, I said that it was unprecedented in modern times that we have a president going around stating that he was robbed of the election. Gore was a gentleman in the December delegate certification. He conceded that-

Brian Lehrer: In the year 2000

Jim: -despite the fact there was the Brooks Brothers riot. It's just the [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Thanks in that disputed Florida 2000 election, primarily in the state of Florida. Jim, I'm going to leave it there for time. Thank you for putting those things on the table. To a point that Jim was making E.J, one of the poll results from Pew, and I think other polls have found similar things, is that the public at large, and of course, the public is never at large, it's divided into all kinds of groups, but when you look at the cumulative numbers are concerned about inflation as the top issue.

The Democrats seem, to be to their critics, more focused on voting rights, as well as Build Back Better childcare and elder care supports, but the state of democracy overall, do you think there's a disconnect between the party's emphasis on voting rights and democracy and enough people's concerns around the country, which might be more economic and of the moment?

E.J. Dionne: No, I don't actually. I think that's a false choice. To me, it's using a truth to make an analytical error. The truth is that they do need to be focused on inflation and these supply chain problems. Indeed the house, I think they should have done it earlier, but put forward a bill yesterday to match one in the Senate that Senator Schumer had been pushing hard for to do something about this shortage of chips and to make us to try to fix some of the supply chain problems, they've got to do that. You can do that at the same time that you focus on voting rights because the crisis of democracy is real. What's happening in states like Georgia and Texas, and a lot of other places to restrict access to the ballot is a huge threat to equal voting rights.

If the Democrats don't stand up for equal voting rights, what are they for? I think you can fight these fights at the same time and the need to do that is why I underscored at the beginning that the Democrats have to solve two problems simultaneously. Yes, don't let go of inflation. Do things, talk about it all the time, talk about what you're doing about it all the time. You got to keep fighting for voting rights. One of the suggestions I made recently is the president really has to show he's staying in this fight. I think tomorrow morning he should issue an executive order, which he can do that would make election day a holiday for federal employees. He should take executive orders, he has already issued to have all federal agencies assist people in registration and voting, and he should go back out there and say, "I'm not giving up on voting rights". You can do both things at the same time. That's what we pay politicians for.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy in Mount Vernon is calling in about voting rights. Hi, Nancy, you're on WNYC with E.J. Dionne, Washington Post columnist.

Nancy: Hi. Our current president, Joseph Biden, was a Senator for over three decades, then he was in the White House for nine out of the last 13 years. If there's something wrong with the voting system right now, whose fault is it?

E.J. Dionne: Let me address that directly. There was nothing wrong with the voting system until all of these states started passing laws to get rid of the advances we made in 2020 to make it easier for people to vote. I think what's forgotten about 2020 is those advances didn't just help Democrats. Donald Trump got a lot more votes in 2020 than he got in 2016 because we made it easier for everybody to vote by mail, we made it easier for everybody to put ballots in drop boxes. Because of the pandemic, we created a far better voting system for voters of every point of view.

What's happening in state after state is Republicans, I think actually wrongly from their point of view, just if you're talking about pure self interest, but Republicans are saying, "Gee, we don't like all this voter turnout". That's where the other caller is right that this former president declaring that there was all this vote fraud when in fact there wasn't any is creating a rationale. I think the voting system was fine in 2020. We should build on the advances not roll them back. Thank you for that question.

Brian Lehrer: Nancy, thank you for that question from me too. Terry in Morristown. You're on WNYC with E.J. Dionne. Hi, Terry.

Terry: Hi, thank you. I'm an angry person out here in the suburbs. What I see, and I had so much hope for Biden, what I see is absolutely no outrage, no anger, no resolve. I don't doubt that he has our best interest at heart for the democracy and most other issues, but it's very upsetting to see such weakness in presentation at least in the face of the terrible other side that is so strong. I've almost given up. I don't see any way forward with a Democratic Party that is so not-together and not angry at the top and not fighting with the same tools. I don't see any hope for us.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask you a question.

E.J. Dionne: Let me ask you a question [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I wonder if we were going to ask her the same question. E.J, you go.

E.J. Dionne: What did you make of his January 6th speech or his speech down in Georgia? The reason I ask is because I have some sympathy for the view you just expressed, and it's one of the reasons why I thought the January 6th speech was so important because he did start expressing some of that anger. I'm just curious what your thoughts are.

Terry: The words and the sentiment are fine. I agree. That's not enough. We need a nasty leader up there at the moment. We need someone who can oppose Mitch McConnell. The people, what they're doing is threatening their own people. I don't like that. That's how they're keeping the podium line. As long as they do that, we're not going to win with being nice and defending their right to this and that. We're just not. It doesn't matter what the sentiments are, what the issues are, at all. We're not going to appeal to people we need to appeal to and light a fire if there's no spark from the top.

Brian Lehrer: Terry, who's your member of Congress there in Morristown? Do you know?

Terry: I don't even know. After Biden came in I was so relieved that I tried to stop watching everything. I still vote Democratic, but it's with anger, to be honest.

Brian Lehrer: My understanding of Morris County, New Jersey, is that there are a lot of Republicans there and a lot of Democrats. It's a swing county. Go ahead.

Terry: Yes. I believe it's mostly Republican, heavily Republican. Also, we have the military woman who won in that heavily gerrymandered district. We do have Mikie, is her name?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. Mikie Sherrill. A moderate Democrat.

Terry: Mostly it's heavily Republican, here governed by Republicans. We're changing slightly.

Brian Lehrer: Some of your neighbors who might be on the fence, maybe they voted Republican in some recent elections, but voted for Mikie Sherrill for Congress. If you went door to door in your neighborhood and said, "We, Democrats are angry and we need to express our anger at these outrageous things the Republicans are doing." Do you think that's going to get more people to vote for Mikie Sherrill for reelection or turn more people off?

Terry: No, I don't think so. The ones who are-- I don't see a lot of change even though I do-- The people that I know and meet are Democrats. Even former Republicans are angry or upset and weakening, but I don't see that changing anything in the bigger scope. I don't see it changing anything in time.

Brian Lehrer: Terry, thank you so much for your call. E.J, is there a tension for Democrats trying to hold on to swing seats? Those are the seats that might flip this November, in expressing that anger versus making Swing voters feel like the Democrats are for them too?

E.J. Dionne: Yes. Tension was the word in my head and the other word in my head was contradiction. I think that what the caller is getting at is there was a tension or a contradiction right from the start in Biden's two big promises. On the one hand, he said he would bring us together. He could work in a bipartisan way. That meant he looked to like and tried to be a compromiser or a conciliator. That's what he did to get all those Republican votes for the physical infrastructure bill.

At the same time, he promised that he would do big things in his program. None of it was particularly radical or a socialist, but they were big proposals on community colleges and childcare and the Child Tax Credit and housing. He knew or should have known right from the start that, that was going to run into a Republican buzz saw of opposition. He should have spoken out, in my view, much more strongly and much earlier on voting rights.

For one part of the electorate, the unifying Joe Biden is the person they voted for. For another part of his electorate, it was the Joe Biden who would face down a radical Republican party and obstruction in the Senate. I think what he's signaled since the first of the year, partly because it is an election year, is he understands that what he's got to do in the parlance of political consultants is not make this a referendum on him only. That tends to be voters looking at president's shortcomings.

He's got to make this a choice between what he's accomplished. He's got to accomplish more this year on some of these issues, whether by executive order or getting stuff through Congress. He's also got to make it a choice between his program and the radicalism of the Republican Party. I think the caller will hear more of what she is looking for in the course of the election.

I think that people like Mikie Sherrill, although she's been given a pretty safe district from what I understand in the reapportionment, but people like her are still going to have to appeal to Republicans and say, "What we really want to pass is stuff many of you actually like. Would you really not prefer to have a system of childcare that allows people who work to know that their kids are being taken care of?" I think they've really got to pivot in a way that challenges the Republicans and talks in a unifying way. That's really hard.

Brian Lehrer: When we come back from a break, I want to follow up on what you were just saying and playing one thing that president Biden said at his news conference last week that you thought was so central to this, that you wrote a whole column about it. We're going to do that. I'm also going to want to ask you E.J, so prepare for this. If you think you might have an answer about what New York City's Mayor, Eric Adams being touted by some as the new face of the Democratic Party because he's tough on crime and friendly toward business.

One of the things that he is now asking for from Washington, that other Democrats haven't been able to get and if you think there's any different hope right now. Those things and more of your calls for Washington Post columnists and frequent All Things Considered contributor, E.J. Dionne, right after this.

[music]

Brian Lehrer, WNYC with Washington Post Columnist and Senior Brookings Institution, fellow E.J Dionne also teaches at Harvard and Georgetown. I will ask him about his forthcoming book called 100% Democracy: The Case for Universal Voting. Be curious to hear what Universal Voting actually refers to. E.J, let me play that clip of President Biden from his news conference last week that you wrote a whole column on.

Joe Biden: What are Republicans for? What are they for? Tell me one thing they're for. The problem here is that I think what I have to do and the change in tactic, if you will, I have to make clear to the American people, what we are for. We passed a lot of things that people don't even understand what all that's in it understandably.

Brian Lehrer: President Biden last week. E.J, why why'd you write a column called 'What are Republicans for?'

E.J. Dionne: Because I thought it was a moment when the president was taking a turn toward where our caller from Morristown wanted him to go to challenge Republican obstruction. If I would've taken it one step further, what are they for and what are they against? We know they're for tax cuts for the wealthy and conservative judges. What else are they for? Are they against expanded childcare? Are they against helping people go to community college? I think it was a way of drawing that line that I think he and the Democrats need to draw in this election, which has two advantages. One, it can draw attention to what they've done and what they're trying to do. It can challenge the Republicans to say, "Well, if they're against these things, why are they against it?" I thought it was a step in the right direction for President Biden to do that.

Brian Lehrer: Here's part of what the president said about Build Back Better that made news at his news conference last week.

Joe Biden: I'm confident we can get pieces, big chunks of the Build Back Better law signed into law. I'm confident that we can take the case to the American people that the people they should be voting for, who are going to oversee whether the elections, in fact, are legit or not, should not be those who are being put up by the Republicans to determine that they're going to be able to change the outcome of the election.

Brian Lehrer: On the Build Back Better piece of that the public that follows the news closely is probably exhausted and maybe even bored by talking any more about how all the Democrats accept Joe Manchin will support some version of the Build Back Better bill with its childcare and universal pre-K and paid family leave, and elder care, and climate protection measures.

It's also seen as such a central failure of the Democrats saying they could get this through without actually being able to get it through, that apparently they're going to go back and revisit it again and likely compromise more with Joe Manchin to get something through. I'm curious if you see the outlines of that.

E.J. Dionne: What Manchin has expressed, the problem with negotiating with Senator Manchin is the lines keep seeming to move as he talks. It's not quite clear what his bottom line is, but he has pretty consistently, for example, said he'd support a rather big on climate change. If they could get that alone through that would be significant. A lot of the vulnerable members you were discussing earlier were talking about is passing without-- these negotiations have to go on quietly. They can't have their own fighting right at the center of everything. I think you're not going to see that much. I think they will eventually have to come out, "Here is a bill that we can pass," and pass it. It'll have climate in it and whatever else they can get.

The vulnerable members want, at least in the house to pass some of the discreet pieces of these things to say, "Here is what we would do if we had more seats in the Senate". I think that's the strategy you're going to see. On voting rights, I hope they keep trying to find ways to enact pieces of both the freedom to vote act and the John Lewis act. There's talk about fixing the antiquated electoral count act of 1887 which opened the way to the potential abuses by Trump, last year. I think they should say, the Republicans who are saying they want to do this. Okay, do that, but we got to do some other stuff with this bill like not let voting boards in these be taken over by partisan entities, perhaps even merge the John Lewis voting rights act in with it. I think they have to keep fighting and they got to pass some stuff. Stuff is technical, political science word, of course.

Brian Lehrer: I think I learned it in graduate school. Part of what you're saying is, Democrats need to take the focus off shooting rhetorical bullets at Joe Manchin and start asking Republicans or out on the campaign trail, asking the voters. Wait, you don't want-- to speak on behalf of the Republicans, you don't want a universal pre-K system for your children? You don't want subsidized childcare considering what a stress that is on the unemployment rates generally on women more than men, but on all family members you don't want paid family leave? Maybe that's the marque item that even Joe Manchin was holding up, but do 50 Republican senators really oppose a paid family leave program, and move the focus off Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema.

E.J. Dionne: Not just that, but also move the focus off all kinds of bullets passing back and forth between wings of the Democratic Party. The last two or three months have for most voters been a lesson in much Democrats enjoy attacking each other because you'll remember that it was the progressives under attack earlier on from the centrists when they were slow to pass the physical infrastructure bill because they said they couldn't be sure they'd get Build Back Better. In one sense, it turns out they were right. They didn't get Build Back Better. All of that in-fighting is what voters know about Democrats and that, sure, isn't a very appealing thing to any part of the electorate.

Brian Lehrer: Maria in Westchester wants to talk back to the last caller from New Jersey. Maria, you're on WNYC. Hello?

Maria: Yes. Thank you so much, Brian and Mr. Dionne thank so much for being a national treasure. [crosstalk] At this point as a very strong Biden supporter, though I was a reluctant Biden supporter, I have to say I'm just so frustrated because you have to be an involved voter. This is something that Democrats seem not to be able to learn. That person who called I have sympathy for her frustration with perhaps a lack of forcefulness. I have to admit why someone is not out there daily, whether it's Chuck Schumer or someone else coming after the Republicans, hammer and tongs, about the inanities that they are supporting or pretending to it's beyond me. I don't get that.

At the same time, you cannot just complain about stuff. As Democrats, we have to realize this saving of our democracy is up to us. You've got to know who your member of Congress is. You have to make sure that you are going to vote. This is where the Republicans get us every single time. They go out every single time. You can't not know who your member of Congress is. I'm here in a real swing district also. Sean Maloney is my Congressperson. I'll tell you, all my neighbors are Trump people. They had signs all over the place here where I live. I counter people all the time who do not share my views.

It is important to understand what works and doesn't work with those people. I was, frankly, a Warren supporter. I'm pretty liberal. I think the labels don't matter, what matters is getting stuff done and talking about the things you have done, and being involved and committed. I could go on for a million hours on this, but thank you for allowing me to make that statement.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for adding your voice. As we start to run out of time, E.J, Maria, whether she knows it or not, just articulated the three-word slogan of the new mayor of New York, Eric Adams, did you catch it? Do you know what it is?

E.J. Dionne: Get stuff done.

Brian Lehrer: That's exactly what it is. He has t-shirts that say GSD, all of this. Eric Adams as the new, more centrist face than some other Democrats of the Democratic Party as he's being portrayed both on the left and in the center. He gave his big gun prevention blueprint speech on Monday, and besides the thing, some of them controversial that he wants to do with the NYPD and with bail here in New York, one of the first things he said was, "We need help from Washington. We need help from Washington to stop the gun trafficking that comes almost exclusively from Southern states with looser gun laws than New York state up to New York City."

That horrible shooting of the police officers in Harlem on Friday night, the shooter had a magazine capable of firing 40 bullets. Sure enough, according to the press reports, according to the NYPD, I don't think we've seen the bodycam footage yet, but they say there's bodycam footage showing those officers were down and the guy kept shooting, and yet Republicans have refused to pass legislation limiting the size of magazines.

We have that in New York state. After the Newtown Connecticut school shooting, New York passed a law that limits the size of magazines to I think it's bullets or 10 bullets, but that doesn't stop them from being in existence nationally and finding their way to people like the shooter on Friday night. Do you think from Eric Adams, there is any different chance with respect to national gun legislation than there has been before?

E.J. Dionne: Well, I'll tell you, if mayor Adams could get Republicans in the Senate to support some of the insane gun laws, he'd be a national hero. For people who still defend the filibuster, it's worth remembering that we had a shot at some decent gun laws a while back. It got 54 votes in the Senate, and those 54 represented the vast majority of the American people, and because of the filibuster, that gun law died.

Unfortunately given the configuration of the United States Senate right now, I don't see that happening. I think that I've written a lot about guns over the years. It's one of the issues I care about most. I think it's a scandal that we can't pass it. You asked earlier whether mayor Adams could become a national model. I'll tell you what came to mind when I heard those words is President John Lindsay and president Bill de Blasio. I think mayor Adams had, and with respect to all three Adams, Lindsay, and de Blasio, being mayor in New York really may be the hardest job in the country other than being president.

When Lindsay ran for reelection years and years ago, one of his slogans was it's the second toughest job in America and I think that's right. I think that's really difficult-

Brian Lehrer: Well, he ran-- It's not just even those two. Mayor Lindsay way back then ran for president and didn't get very far. You mentioned Bill de Blasio, obviously, he did it two, but so did Rudy Giuliani, so did Michael Bloomberg. A lot of New York City mayors think they're the next president of the United States and none of them ever are.

E.J. Dionne: Yes. Here's the thing. There is one core promise that Adams is making that if he means it and pulls it off, he will get a lot of attention. Interestingly, it's something one of his one-time rivals in New York politics, Hakeem Jeffries, the Congressman from out in Brooklyn talks about a lot too. What Democrats desperately need is a way to combine criminal justice reform and a fairer system with a system of public safety that pulls the crime rate back down. It's that balance that Adams' promised in his campaign. It's that balance that Hakeem Jeffries has also been talking about a lot and that's the balance we need. If he actually pulls that off, that will be something that the rest of the country's going to notice.

Brian Lehrer: E.J, please come back for a full-on legitimate book interview for 100% Democracy: The Case for Universal Voting, but just tell our listeners what you mean by universal voting. I'm surprised sometimes by the calls that we will get here on this show in New York City, from time to time by people who say, "Voting shouldn't be incredibly easy. You should have to put a little bit of effort into it." What do you mean by universal voting?

E.J. Dionne: Well, our book argues that the United States should adopt a system that's been in place in Australia for almost a hundred years, which is it declares a duty to vote, a legal to vote just as we have a legal duty to answer those jury summons. When we say a duty to vote, it doesn't mean that you have to put an X next to anybody. You're free to draw Mickey mouse on your ballot if you want, but everyone has to participate.

Our argument is that the best way to defend voting as a right is to declare voting a civic duty. In Australia it's raised turnout over 90%, they make it easy for people to vote because it's a duty. Election officials and election law is designed to make it as easy as possible for people to do their civic duty, and that's the core argument of the book. Boy, what I love to come back with my co-author Miles Rappaport, former secretary of state out in Connecticut, actually, to talk about it

Brian Lehrer: Please do consider that a firm invitation, maybe you'll even tell us whether Mickey Mouse is a Democrat or a Republican. E.J. Dionne, his new book is 100% Democracy: The Case for Universal Voting. Of course, he's a syndicated Washington Post columnist and appears frequently on NPR. Thanks, EJ. Thanks so much.

E.J. Dionne: So good to be with you. Thank you.

 

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.