[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now will talk to the leaders of three indoor entertainment venues of different types that are trying to bring music, comedy, and spectator sports back to New York, and to do it safely now that the state reopening rules allow them to try. We are delighted that they accepted our invitation to compare notes and take some phone calls. With us now are Michael Dorf, founder and CEO of City Winery on West 16th Street near the Hudson River in Manhattan and at Rockefeller Center. They just started presenting live music again, including Patti Smith and others.

Julie Kim, co-owner of Littlefield an arts and performance space at 635 Sackett Street in Gowanus, Brooklyn. They present various things in normal times. Tomorrow they're having what they call Nerd Nite. Next Thursday, a women's comedy show called She Makes Me Laugh. Next Saturday, an event called Shrek, Entirely from Memory, and John Abbamondi CEO of BSE Global, which owns the Barclays Center and the Brooklyn Nets. It is a good year to be able to say you helped run the Brooklyn Nets. Even last night's loss was exciting for the way the bench players staged a big comeback. I can say welcome to Michael Dorf. Welcome to Julie Kim. Welcome to John Abbamondi to WNYC, thank you all so much for coming on with us.

Michael Dorf: It's a pleasure.

Julie Kim: Thank you, Brian.

John Abbamondi: Thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Michael, Patti Smith. Before we even get to our COVID questions, what was that like emotionally for her and for the crowd?

Michael Dorf: Well, it was fantastically powerful. We've done now 12 nights in a row of live entertainment. Patti was two of them. They've all been consistently emotional. The artist on stage feels it, talks about it. The audience certainly feels it, they're very enthusiastic about being in a space. I have to remind everyone at the top of the show that they shouldn't get used to all the spacing in our room, that it's temporary. We're going to crowd them in eventually, I hope. They're very special evenings, and of course Patti, being such a critical genius in an icon of New York, was great to have her on our stage.

Brian Lehrer: Julie, Nerd Nite. What's that going to be tomorrow night?

Julie Kim: Well, we typically have our hosts there in person, but tomorrow we're going to do a hybrid Zoom virtual and live in-person show. Our hosts will be zooming in from California, and she's not here yet. The rest of the folks will be doing their presentations in-person. We'll have a guest host for the second part of the show. It's a semi-return to normalcy. It's the best we can do it, given the situation.

Brian Lehrer: People are supposed to prove their nerd status, or what's the theme?

Julie Kim: The first half of the show will be trivia. We have Matt, who hosts trivia from Nerd Nite, actually do it every Tuesday at my other spot Parklife, which is a restaurant. He will be returning to do a full Nerd Nite Trivia for this Friday. Following that will be presentations that are all nerd-related, they'll talk about the history of crossword puzzles, female executive on TV screen, and we'll learn about Brasilia, so we're very excited to have those folks entertained us and educate us.

Brian Lehrer: John, whether or not the next go all the way this year, it is so much fun to be a Nets fan this year. What's it like to be CEO of the parent company during this particular season?

John Abbamondi: Well, Brian, thanks for having us on. Before I get into that, I'd be remiss if I didn't say as a former naval officer, how much I appreciate your last segment. Thank you for leading that important discussion.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. You served in Iraq, didn't you?

John Abbamondi: I did. I was not on the ground. We were flying over it based off an aircraft carrier out in the Persian Gulf, but very, very important conversation. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

John Abbamondi: I would say this is a really exciting season for our fans. We've been doing our best during the pandemic to engage with our fans. We are grateful that the state reopened our facility and facilities like it back in late February. We've been operating at 10% capacity, and the crowds have been enthusiastic and safe, and we're just glad people are getting to witness a pretty exciting basketball team.

Brian Lehrer: I want to go around the room and ask what you're requiring of customers when they come in. As I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, any of you, Barclays Center requires proof of vaccination or a recent negative COVID test. City Winery and Littlefield, you're just doing a health questionnaire and a temperature check. No vaccine or test requirements, but I see Littlefield collects contact tracing information. I also read that City Winery is considering a vaccination requirement that would begin next month. Let's unpack this, and John I'll stay with you first for Barclays Center.

How's the negative test or vaccine proof policy working out? Are you having to turn anyone away at the door who's bought a ticket to a Nets game when they show up without either?

John Abbamondi: It's a great question, Brian. The policies that we're operating under are actually set by the State of New York, and the Department of Health. Under those policies, fans have to present either proof of vaccination or have a negative COVID test, and we're providing those tests at no additional cost to the fans that need them. Of course, we've had fans test positive. I'd be worried, frankly, if we hadn't. Would mean we weren't looking very hard. We've had to let people know and direct them to medical personnel. Of course, we would refund anyone's ticket that, unfortunately, is in that situation.

I would say though, that the positivity rate is falling dramatically over the last couple of months. It's around 3% right now statewide, and our fans are testing positive at a much lower rate than that. We've been pleased at our ability to keep everyone safe.

Brian Lehrer: Michael Dorf from City Winery, let me ask you what you're doing so far in terms of requirements for customers and what you're considering.

Michael Dorf: Well, right now we're doing what the state mandates for 100 people legally, which is simply the normal indoor dining protocols, mask-wearing, spacing out, doing the survey on entry, taking temperature. We are working with clear, and we have kiosks set up at our entrance that are handling that in a frictionless way, and we're getting all of our customers to take the clear app and start utilizing it and get more comfortable with it. Starting May 1st, we will accept only vaccine certificates which can come with the paper certificate. You can upload it through clear or use the Excelsior pass. The state of New York is the only one using the Excelsior pass is really perfectly set up for this.

We are going to go to a vaccine-only policy starting May 1st. We did a survey of our customers soon as we went on sale with tickets on April 2nd, and 93% of our customers already had one shot in the arm by the time we did the survey and will be vaccinated by the time they attended a show. We felt very comfortable. Again, that survey was the first week of April, that a majority of our customers have made the decision they're going to go out and wine and dine and see entertainment once they're inoculated. We feel very good about that.

Brian Lehrer: Vaccine-only requiring a digital upload, why not also PCR test or rapid test at the door like they're doing at Barclays Center?

Michael Dorf: Yes, we will allow for someone who is vaccine-hesitant or for whatever reason, they don't want to get a vaccine to show proof of a negative test. It's 72 hours for a PCR or eight hours for a rapid antigen test. We did testing when we were doing just indoor dining in November, and we found it a bit cumbersome to have the practitioners who are certified on-site doing it, very expensive. Now prices have come down, but since we're really seen such a high percentage of our customers having been vaccinated, it would only be a few anomalous customers who might go for the test, so we're asking them to show proof on their own rather than do it on site.

Brian Lehrer: Now listeners, we can take a few phone calls for our three guests from City Winery, Littlefield, and the Barclays Center, 646-435-7280. You can ask a question about reopening safely, any of the protocols, or whatever. 646-435-7280. You cannot ask about Brooklyn Nets coaching decisions, that's for a different station down the dial. [chuckles] You can tell us about your own experience going to hear indoor performances so far at any venue, and how safe you felt and with any observations that you made, so questions or stories welcome at 646-435-7280, or you can tweet your question @BrianLehrer.

Surely, all three of you have very detailed safety protocol pages I see. I'm looking at

the little field one, it describes keeping customers six feet apart in the line outside, the temperature check and questionnaire, and contact tracing information at the door. Food and Drink ordering inside is via mobile app, not directly to a server or bartender. You're requiring your staff to be fully vaccinated, the performers are at least 12 feet from the nearest audience member. At the end of the show, there's an orderly process, you say, for having people exit one row at a time. We could spend our whole segment just discussing that list, but let me ask you about a couple of those pieces.

You're collecting contact tracing information, why aren't you requiring the negative test or vaccination for patrons like Barclays and now City Winery are doing? How did you decide on your admission requirements? On asking for contact tracing information, is anyone objecting to that as an invasion of privacy?

Julie Kim: Sure. Same as Michael in City Winery, we're doing 100 people or less, so that doesn't require any testing, but we want to keep our staff and the rest of the patrons safe. What we've done is, following the state and city guidelines, filling out the health declaration, getting their temperature checks, that's important to us, and really reinforcing mask-wearing. To further protect us, I did change the system of ordering. They have to use the third-party app at their seats, and then we get all the tickets, like a service bar, and we have runners to bring out their food and drinks.

One of the requirements that has been a sticking point for us is that the state is requiring that food be purchased with their first alcoholic beverage. Instead of disrupting the show and letting patrons know, "Hey, your first order didn't include food, you need to order something else," we decided to upcharge all of our tickets to include foods. The $5 upcharge includes guy and chips to go.

Brian Lehrer: Why not require the vaccination or negative COVID test proof? Is it too cumbersome for a small space? Why not, if that's the safer option?

Julie Kim: There's issues. In terms vaccination, not everyone can be vaccinated for health or for religious reasons. Our philosophy has always been to be as inclusive as possible. I know that if I couldn't attend a show, I love going live shows, if I couldn't attend because of my health that would prevent me from going. I don't know, I just don't want to exclude people, but there has to be alternatives to maintain safety. I feel like we're doing the best we can, given the situation and the guidelines to give everyone a chance to come if they feel comfortable.

Brian Lehrer: On the contact tracing, if someone gets COVID within two weeks after attending a show, are they supposed to contact the club and you would then contact all the other patrons who are at that show, or how would that work?

Julie Kim: Yes. The contact tracing, we have their email, their phone number, we also keep track of where they were sitting once they check-in. We need that information to be accurate, and we know that sometimes people are not upfront with their personal information. This is for the public, for the general public safety, we hope that they are honest, and then we would reach out to everybody and let them know we would all get tested. Our staff who had worked at night would get tested,

and we would want all the patrons as well as the performers to get tested as well.

Brian Lehrer: Have you had to do it yet?

Julie Kim: No, not yet, but we also just opened four days ago.

Brian Lehrer: The other day. Michael, do you have that contact tracing at City Winery also?

Michael Dorf: We do. I'd love to comment on this on a few aspects, but we were open in November, December in a few of our locations New York and elsewhere. We had unfortunately several positive cases come in, we had to reach out to all the people who were in the restaurant at that point. Thank goodness, we had detailed contact information for everybody to let them know that we had somebody positive and to take precautions, and that's what we have to do. In general, I feel a little differently than Julie. Even though we probably feel the same, but we're taking a little more draconian approach right now, is that our job is to make people as safe as possible.

We need to have fire suppression systems and working exit signs and good means of egress. All of these things are about not just physical safety but even some of the psychological comfort of hosting and being a hospitality player. We want to make people as safe as possible. It's why we don't allow people to carry guns, not to bring up another issue, but we don't allow that. It's why people got yellow fever vaccines if they wanted to go on a safari. An important thing is to emphasize this is temporary, this is in a transition till we can get rid of this virus and be out of the pandemic.

Let's hope we're only doing this for six, eight, ten months, and not forever as a permanent policy because there are privacy concerns, but this is what we got to do right now to make our customers, artists, and staff safe.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Kip in New Brunswick has a question for John Abbamondi from Barclays Center. Hi, Kip, you're on WNYC.

Kip: Hi Brian. Thank you. My question is, we've recently seen in Texas and Florida, obviously they are both for all intents and purposes very open. Florida specifically has announced that their arenas and sheds are going to be going to 75% capacity soon. We recently saw a baseball game with the Rangers in Dallas at full capacity. My question is, how is that influencing your decisions versus Barclay Center going forward? Obviously we have two good, shall we say, guinea pig states out there right now.

John Abbamondi: Kip, thanks for the question. It's a great question. Listen, the short answer is that we're beholden to the state. We're not setting the policies, we're following them. The policy here in New York state for the last couple of months has been 10% capacity. Now, I'll take the opportunity to opine. I think that capacity can safely be raised. I've spoken to people at the Department of Health who agree, the wheels of bureaucracy turn slowly. The situation here in New York, while still very serious, has improved dramatically over the last couple of months. We're now at a

point where 40% of the state has received at least one shot. Another 10% have had COVID.

50% of our population in New York, have at least some degree of immunity, and one in four New Yorkers is fully vaccinated. We're at 10% with testing and vaccine required. New Jersey and Philadelphia are at 20% with no testing, and no vaccine required. California is at 35%, so it's not just the red states. We believe it's time now to increase the capacity restrictions, we think we've proven that we can safely return fans with these controls in place. We have a 670,000 square foot building, so having 1,500, 1,600 people in the building is extraordinarily conservative. We think and we hope the state will soon agree that it's time to increase the limit.

Brian Lehrer: Are you also taking people's contact information for contact tracing in case anyone who attends a game comes down with COVID?

John Abbamondi: 100%. That's mandatory. We would do it if it wasn't mandatory, but it is. I will say that we're proud to say that we have not had a single positive case come into our building. Those contact tracing mechanisms are there. We've been very rigorous at preventing people from getting in, a little lucky too, for sure, but we have not had to do that because we haven't had a positive case come in. In fact, I'll tell you a story. We had a healthcare worker, a man who worked in a hospital here in New York City, who bought a ticket for a basketball game, was coming to the game, we tested him and he tested positive.

Had he not bought that ticket, had we not given him that test, he would have gone to work at the hospital the next day. We think we're providing a real valuable public service here, and we think it's important for our economy as well, for businesses like ours to be able to get back to entertaining your fans.

Brian Lehrer: Ryan in Nyack, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ryan.

Ryan: Hey there. I just had a quick question. I tested positive for COVID, maybe three weeks ago, but I was also told that I wouldn't be eligible for a vaccine for 90 days, and I'm probably not likely to test negative for COVID. I'm just wondering what options there are for people like me.

John Abbamondi: Ryan I'm happy to-- Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, John. No, you take it John.

John Abbamondi: I think it's a state-wide answer as well. I think I'm probably answering for all of us. In a case like that, there's a protocol by which, if your doctor can certify that enough time has passed from your diagnosis and your recovery, even though you may continue to test positive, that's remnants of the antibodies and so there's a way for you to get clear to come to an event.

Brian Lehrer: Ryan, thank you. John, I know you have to go in a minute. You'll be the first one out the door I think, and we'll spend just another couple of minutes with our other two guests. Let me ask you, I understand that you're having the Nets at Barclays, obviously, but holding off on concerts and other things. I'm curious if there's  

a different safety calculus there for you?

John Abbamondi: I'd say it's less a safety calculus than a business calculus. Our basketball games are broadcast on television. Frankly, we were putting on basketball games when we weren't allowed to have any fans in the building because they are televised, concerts aren't. The economics there are a little different, and I don't anticipate concerts returning to large venues until we can get close to 100% capacity.

Brian Lehrer: John Abbamondi, CEO of BSE Global, which owns Barclays Center and the Brooklyn Nets. Thank you so much for your time this morning. Continued Good luck with the Nets this season and continued good luck with reopening Barclays.

John Abbamondi: Thank you, Brian, and good luck to everyone.

Brian Lehrer: This is WNYC-FM HD and AM New York, WNJT-FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcom, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey Public Radio. Just a few minutes left with Michael Dorf from City Winery and Julie Kim from Littlefield, the performance and artspace at 635 Sackett Stree in Gowanus. Julie, I understand you're having comedy and other spoken word, but not yet music from what I can see. Do you think people feel safer coming in for comedy than for music so far? Is that also a business decision?

Julie Kim: Yes. It's interesting, it's a double-edged sword there because we were not allowed to have comedy at all previous to reopening. With my other space, we were doing socially distant outdoor comedy shows because, at the time, the science told us, COVID travel via the aerosol. We thought, "Well, you don't want singers. It's easier to have, comedians at least wear masks. They don't need to blow into like wooden instruments." Then the state said, "No, we're banning comedy altogether." Then when we opened, we thought, "Let's reach out to bands then."

It became tricky with artists, musicians, who didn't feel comfortable yet being onstage, or it was an issue of finance. Even though the state is allowing to operate 33% capacity or 100 people, we are currently operating at 16%. My room holds 300 people, I can only have 50 people due to social distancing. I don't have the finance to create barriers in between people, which would increase my capacity to 100. It's just that huge economic burden on us, and also the numbers don't work out for musicians. For us, if they take a majority of the percentage of the tickets sold, but we don't have the capacity to meet their bottom line.

In the end, we decided okay, well, we missed comedy, so we're going to bring it back. Start that way and we'll slowly reintroduce music. The space is meant to host a variety of things, we don't just do comedy and live music, we also host dance parties when we don't know when that's going to happen, and it's probably not going to happen until everyone is vaccinated. The option we're giving all of our patrons, as well as our performers, is that we are doing a live stream. For those fans who test positive and they can't go see any shows for a while, there is a $5 ticket option to just  

watch the show from home. It's not the best experience, but it is better than nothing, especially for the patrons.

Brian Lehrer: I think a lot of people have really come to appreciate virtual concerts and other performance during the pandemic, at least as the best option available and somewhat more satisfying than nothing. Michael, let me give you the last question here. You are doing music at City Winery. What's your calculus that you can do that in your space? Either from a business standpoint, paying each member of the band et cetera, et cetera, if it's not a solo show, as well as that the aerosol carries further, presumably with singing than with speaking.

Michael Dorf: Well, City Winery, especially our new flagship at 15th Street in Hudson River Park, we're really lucky in that we have very high ceilings and it's a pretty expansive space with a normal legal seating capacity of about 400. Having 100 people or 150 when we go to vaccine-only is still a small percentage of the space and not crowded at all.

Brian Lehrer: It is two or three times more than Julie can have at Littlefield.

Michael Dorf: 100 paid guests does create a little bit of scale, allowing artists to make money. Again, we've always focused on seated concerts. An intimate facility, that's been part of our brand for many years. We're used to creating a solo, a trio, an acoustic show of a big-name artist in a small, intimate space. This transition has our name all over it. It's part of the reason why even some of the bigger tours that normally would be in a bus and go play in a stadium, which is not happening right now. As John had said, that won't happen probably for the rest of the year. We're getting the benefit of those shows coming into a smaller space.

The artists and the management, the whole music industry is in a recalibration period. This is in a transition where they're going to make a little bit less money, but they really want to perform for the fans. Fans are willing to pay a little bit more to have the rare magic of a live performance. When I announce from the stage, "Isn't this great being in a live space again and not being on your computer watching Zoom or a stream?" I get a huge applause. People are so excited to feel the magic and energy of a live performance. As you started the show, it's almost emotional to be with your fellow fans watching live music again. If it can be done safely, there's nothing better.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you both for your work. It is such a complicated transitional moment. You have so much to deal with. I hope our listeners have gotten a sense of that. Michael, we will miss you having City Winery across the street from the WNYC Studios since Disney bought that space and you had a move up, but it sounds like your new space, 15th or 16th Street at the Hudson River, is absolutely luscious. I look forward to seeing you in person again and going there at some point. Michael Dorf, founder and CEO of City Winery, and Julie Kim, co-owner of Littlefield, an art and performance space at 635 Sackett Street in Gowanus, Brooklyn. Thank you both so much for coming on with us and talking through all the complexities. I know our listeners really appreciate it.

Michael Dorf: Anytime. My pleasure.

Julie Kim: Thank you.

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