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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer and WNYC coming to you for the rest of the show for the next 20 minutes or so through the magic of an old technology we call the telephone, because the internet went out in my building for the moment, I think by accident, pursuant to construction that's taking place outside my building. We will have this fixed up in time for tomorrow's show, no doubt, but hopefully, the sound quality is decent folks as I come to you via telephone from my apartment in upper Manhattan.

We will return now to the selection of Kamala Harris as Joe Biden's running mate. Now, I want to tell you that there's going to be an event today. The first, I think they're going to be in person and not virtual, Joe Biden and Kamala Harris joint appearance as they introduce themselves as a ticket. Whenever that happens, we're going to cover it live here on WNYC, but the last I looked, they haven't announced the time.

As soon as it happens, we will bring you live coverage of that. In the meantime, listeners, we can keep taking your phone calls with your first reactions to the selection of Senator Harris or any questions for our next guest, Christina Greer at 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. As with me now is Fordham political science professor, Christina Greer, also co-host of the podcast, FAQ NYC, and author of the book, Black Ethnics: Race, Immigration, and the Pursuit of the American Dream. Hey, Christina, welcome back to WNYC.

Christina Greer: Thank you, Brian. I love being here.

Brian: In the context of your book about African-Americans and Black immigrants, Kamala Harris is the daughter of immigrants from Jamaica and India. I'm curious what relationship you think her particular experience gives her to the big sweep of Black history in the United States?

Christina: Well, as we've seen, and what I argue in the book is that even though in certain circumstances, there is this Black exceptionalism for Black immigrants, and they're seen as an elevated minority, oftentimes, their real-world experiences in the United States are similar to those who I call JBs, just Blacks. We remember during the debate, when Kamala Harris confronted Joe Biden about busing and some of his past policies from several decades ago, she talks about her experience as a Black person in the United States.

We can see her immigrant heritage combining with a Black American experience because we know about residential segregation, we know that so many policies that affect Black Americans also distinctly affect Black immigrants as well. I think that's why you're seeing this groundswell of support from Black women who see her as a Black woman, not as half-Indian and half-Jamaican, but they see her as someone who represents the needs and wants of the Black electorate.

Brian: As a political scientist, how do you see the mix of her identity and her record playing into strengths or weaknesses for the campaign?

Christina: Well, lots of folks have brought up in the past some of the things that she said or did as district attorney of San Francisco or as attorney general in the state of California when it comes to truancy policies or incarceration, but I think for the Biden campaign to be successful, they need to frame the evolution of both she and Joe Biden's policy positions and really focus on the present.

What she said and possibly did in the past is worth scrutiny, however, we're in a very different moment and a very different nation right now where we have over 160,000 Americans who have died under this "leadership". We have over 40 million Americans who need unemployment benefits under this, I'm putting leadership in quotes, and we have parents who don't know the future of their own children.

I say for the people who need a purity test, they need to ask themselves, with the current administration, they essentially get little or nothing, and at least with a Biden-Harris administration, we've seen their willingness, not only to move on positions, but to surround themselves with people who understand policies that are more progressive than theirs, who will help them articulate a new vision of what a Democratic big D and small D policy should look like.

Brian: Let's take a phone call, Adelaide, in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hi, Adelaide.

Adelaide: Hi, Brian, and hi, Christina. Brian, thank you so much for being a voice of reassurance during these trying times. You having construction in the background on this morning's show is about New York as it gets so thank you for all that you've done for us. I really appreciate you having Christina on the show. I've listened to many of the segments that you've had with her and her other commentary, and I think that this is such an important and necessary discussion.

I think that it's one where the media is, in some ways ignorantly, but in some ways, very purposefully mischaracterizing Kamala as the "first African American woman, vice presidential, et cetera, et cetera, nominee." I say that it's happening somewhat purposely because when you have that framing, it taps into a very distinct specifics which Christina I think has commented on. A very distinct and specific lineage, a very specific and distinct cultural inheritance, plunder, lineage, plight, et cetera, that is grounded in America.

Kamala having one parent who is Indian, another parent who is Jamaican, and who birthed her here in the US, she is undoubtedly American, and yet she does not have those heritage ties to America in the same way that is a vote when you use the term African American. Which is to say someone who is descended from people who were enslaved in America, in the US.

Now, I am not saying this from a position of xenophobia at all, but I feel that there is a skirting of the real conversation that needs to be had. It's something that came up last week or a couple of weeks ago at the BIPOC segment castigating the "ADOS" term and movement as something that's nationalistic. I am someone who shares Jamaican ancestry with Kamala.

My grandfather is Jamaican. My grandmother is from another Caribbean island and then the other half of my family is African American. I love all those sides with every ounce of my being, and I appreciate the distinct cultural lineage experiences that all of those sides have. The reckoning in terms of the specificity that a lot of us are asking for, and recognizing a game that's being played in terms of identity and people, politicians, the media, et cetera, cloaking themselves. They're cloaking others in the identity and lineage of African Americanness and then trying to create a narrative of triumph that is very much grounded in that lineage, is something that we're becoming quite aware of and that we're rejecting and that we're also interrogating.

I think it's important to have this conversation. I'm so glad for this segment, and I think it's important at some point for WNYC to have a segment with the founders of ADOS movement, perhaps some people from the ADOS chapter in New York to discuss the objective nuances that are at play here, because it's being thrown around and it's only creating more frustration and it's going to end up backfiring.

Brian: It sounds like a great idea for a segment that we should do. Christina Greer, where do you want to jump into that?

Christina: Well, I think the last caller said quite a bit. Let me just parse out some of it. I think that what I talk about in Black Ethnics is that for people like Kamala Harris and people who have Black immigrant heritage or parents, it's a both and. They can be both immigrant, both Jamaican, and also feel very decent rooted in a Black American experience because of how they live their daily lives.

I think it's not lost on many people that we have not seen. We've seen Barack Obama and Kamala Harris exude the type, and neither one of them are Black American. I think that that is not lost on a lot of people, but that's just where we are as a nation, and it'll be curious to see if we ever do have a Black American president or vice president. That being said, both Barack Obama and Kamala Harris deeply identify with the Black American experience, and also with the Black American community.

In the effort of unity, we have to look at the policies that they'll put forward, Biden and Harris, that will help lift both, not just all boats, but specific boats for Black Americans because Black Americans and First Nation people are the only groups here who are non-voluntary immigrants, if you will. Native American peoples are the first to own this land, and Black Americans are the only non-voluntary immigrants. Being specific about that, but other than that, I think it's very clear. Kamala Harris has identified as Black because she went to a historically Black college university with all the HBCU. She went to Howard University in DC. She pledged a Black sorority, the Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated, of which my mother is a member. Very excited, as you can imagine.

I think that the parsing out of ethnicity is important in certain contexts, but in this one when we're trying to fight to save the democracy, I think Kamala Harris can be all of those identities. She can be Indian. She can be Black. She can be an immigrant. She can be Jamaican. She can be a leader for little girls and women across the country, as a person of color more broadly.

Brian: I want to get your take.

Christina: Hopefully sorry, little boys as well, not just little girl.

Brian: Absolutely and that's something that, as a father of boys, I try to inculcate in my kids that when something happens that's groundbreaking for somebody who's not a white male like you are, this is good for you, too. This is good for the world. This is something that should make you proud to be alive at this time. I want to get your take on Trump's pushback on day one against Kamala Harris, because I think they were very ready for this pick. They were probably ready for any number of potential running mates who were on Biden's shortlists, but they were certainly ready for this.

It looks like they are all set up for a certain line of attack or sets of line of attack against this ticket. Trump had a nickname for the new Democratic ticket ready to go. We remember how he would keep saying Crooked Hillary and he's got a nickname for everybody. It's Slow Joe Biden and Phony Kamala Harris. They're going to try to tag Senator Harris with being phony. Here's part of how they're making that case. Here's the famous moment from the Democratic primary debate when Harris challenged Biden on his record from the 1970s against school busing for integration, as she put it, in very personal terms.

Kamala Harris: There was a little girl in California who was part of the second class to integrate her public schools. She was bused to school every day. That little girl was me.

Brian: Very memorable moment, of course. Then they cite Harris on Stephen Colbert, and this was easy to find on Fox News last night, after she dropped out of the race and endorsed Biden, and Colbert was asking her, "Wait, what about that moment?"

Stephen Colbert: How do you go from being such a passionate opponent on such bedrock principles for you and now you guys seem to be pals?

Kamala Harris: It was a debate. [laughs]

Stephen Colbert: Not everybody landed punches like you did though?

Kamala Harris: It was a debate. [laughs]

Stephen Colbert: So you don't mean it?

Kamala Harris: It was a debate that the whole reason, literally it was a debate. It was called a debate, everyone traveled to the debate. There were journalists there covering the debate where there would be a debate of differences of opinion and issues. I am 1,000% supportive of Joe Biden.

Brian: Christina, you get what they're going for there. If she can laugh off that easily and that fully, that personal and intense moment of raising that particular issue against Joe Biden, then they're going to call her phony. How do you see this playing out politically from both sides?

Christina: From the Trump campaign, obviously they're incredibly desperate. Again, 160,000 Americans have died and counting. 40 million Americans are unemployed or not ever going to find a job because the industry has gone. Parents don't know where to send their children in the fall. Clearly, they want to harp on everything but those three major issues. If we look at any politics, Republican or Democrat, this is what happens in debates. We know that Joe Biden and Barack Obama went head to head for quite some time. We know that Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton went head to head for quite a bit of time and he appointed her a secretary of state.

We know that Donald Trump would never be able to work with a woman who had remotely insulted him. This is why he needs to A, come up with nicknames as a septuagenarian, which we should ask ourselves what is going on. Also, we have to remember that this is clearly going to be a deflection tactic because he wants to talk about everything but the coronavirus failures, the economic cliff that we are swiftly falling off of, and dragging the rest of the world with us. Also, the fact that so many families don't know what their future looks like.

In the effort of unity, we've seen parties come together constantly. Except for the exception of 1980 when Teddy Kennedy didn't want to join in with Jimmy Carter, but for the most part people get in line because they recognize that the larger Democratic issues- someone's at my door- are more important than anything else.

Brian: I should let you go and answer your doorbell. Don't forget to ask who's there, don't just let people in.

Christina: Right. I have no idea what's going to--

Brian: I don't know if you can walk to the door while you're saying goodbye. We've got one minute left in the show, and listeners, as you can hear, my internet did pop back in so I'm not on the phone anymore, in the usual studio quality, but just what would you anticipate this afternoon when Biden and Harris make their first joint appearance? Listeners we will cover that live when it happens this afternoon, they haven't announced the precise time here on WNYC, but what do you think those two shots' going to look like?

Christina: Well, I think that the visual itself will be inspiring for a lot of people. I do think that they're going to present that this is going to be the new vision of the Democratic Party moving forward, where we can see women in leadership positions, people of color in leadership positions, and Black women explicitly in positions of leadership. I think that this is obviously an era of good feeling, next week will be the convention, and then the real hard work and the strategy begins, because we are in such a crucial point as a nation.

Brian: Fordham political science professor, Christina Greer, also co-host of the podcast FAQ NYC and author of the book, Black Ethnics: Race, Immigration, and the Pursuit of the American Dream. Thanks, Christina.

Christina: Thanks, Brian.

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