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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. No Ask The Mayor today. He was scheduled for this time, little later than usual in our Friday show because of an event he has in Queens, but late yesterday, they told us the event schedule had changed to the point where it totally conflicted with the show. For those of you thinking, "Ah, he's ducking," we tend to give the mayor the benefit of the doubt on that, because in our experience with him, he generally does like to make his case on hot button policies of his, like the potentially huge one that would have been our main topic today. We will talk about it anyway, with two guests and your calls.

Today is deadline day for almost all New York City employees to get at least one COVID-19 vaccine dose or be placed on unpaid leave. With more than 20% of police officers, firefighters, EMTs, and even more sanitation workers than that, as a percentage, believed to be unvaccinated, the city is bracing for a shortage on Monday of ambulances, might be closing a fifth of firehouses, and not to mention the garbage that's been piling up already. What Mayor de Blasio conceded yesterday appears to be a work slowdown by sanitation workers to protest the mandate. Here in fact, the sanitation workers union rep, Harry Nespoli on the garbage already not being picked up at its normal pace, what he refers to as turning around.

Harry Nespoli: In turning around, they feel as if, how can I go out there and perform if I don't know tomorrow I have a job?

Brian Lehrer: That's disturbing enough from the sanitation department, but here is Uniformed Firefighters Union president Andrew Ansbro, predicting what could happen when the suspensions really take effect on Monday.

Andrew Ansbro: Response time could double, it could triple, we have no idea what's going to happen, but fires are going to grow, heart attack victims we're going to be unable to reach in time, people stuck in elevators may be stuck in elevators for hours.

Brian Lehrer: We'll talk about this now and also about former governor, Andrew Cuomo, criminally indicted on a workplace sex crimes charge. If we have time, the hats that are being thrown into the ring this week to run for governor next year with Christina Greer, Fordham University political science professor, host of the podcast, FAQ NYC, and author of the book, Black Ethnics. Hi, Christina. Welcome back to WNYC.

Christina Greer: Thank you, Brian. Always great to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, anyone listening from the NYPD, FDNY, or sanitation department, DSNY, vaccinated or unvaccinated, call in and tell us what the conversation is among you and your coworkers and what you think is going to happen come Monday. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Christina, those predictions about fire response times, which include ambulances for all kinds of emergencies, because they're part of the fire department are really scary, not just Halloween scary. Are these just scare tactics or do we have reason to believe people are literally going to die because of the vaccine mandate backlash?

Christina Greer: It could be both end, Brian. I think the framing of it should be changed ever so slightly. I think the ire is on Bill de Blasio for having this vaccine mandate, but we know that across DSNY, FDNY, NYPD, roughly two-thirds of all those individuals have chosen to get vaccinated and protect themselves, their families, and the citizens of New York, so I think the question should be, why is it that my colleagues are refusing to get vaccinated to help me do my job better? If we've taken these various oath to protect the city, whether it's from crime or fire or whatever it may be, or trash and rats, why is it that a third of my colleagues aren't willing to protect the greater good and get vaccinated for either immunocompromised populations, or so we can actually all do our jobs much better and safer?

Brian Lehrer: Well, you know, we have another guest who's going to join our conversation for a few minutes, who I think is in a perfect position to try to answer, as a journalist, the question that you just posed. He is journalist Bob Hennelly, who among the things that he does, writes for The Chief Leader, which specifically covers New York City municipal workers and municipal unions. Hi, Bob, welcome back to WNYC. Do we have you?

Bob Hennelly: Yes, you do.

Brian Lehrer: Did you hear Christina's question and how for you reporting on the unions would you begin to answer it?

Bob Hennelly: I think it goes back to the granular reporting, how do we know what we know? The Chief Leader, we've been covering this conversation that started really back in August. It's important. I appreciate you having Harry Nespoli's voice on, of course, the leader of the sanitation union and head of the Municipal Labor Committee. For a long time, for mine, it's going back to the summer, the unions were waiting for Mayor de Blasio to join in a conversation about how to go about doing this.

That's part of the problem is that, I'm working on a story right now where the MTA is actually collaborating with unions, you heard that right, and they're taking more along the approach of the Biden White House right now. There's many moving parts here. The Department of Labor under Marty Walsh is getting ready to promulgate an OSHA policy, which will be test or vaccine. That's the approach. We have a patchwork here of response.

The concern here is that, and you have to remember that we're really talking about an importance of liberty concept here, which is the idea of having a vaccination mandated by the government in time of great stress, under someone like Donald Trump. Really unions are sticking up for the long-term interest of workers here, because what's happened is the teachers got like 30 days to work through the process of legally protected opportunities to apply for religious exemption or medical exemption, such things do exist.

What's happened though, because of this kind of macho, Andrew Cuomo, my way or the highway, it's truncated so that firefighters, police, sanitation, those folks are in a situation where they have just days to reach their internist, if they're pregnant, to document what the risks are. Now, that's the problem. They're just trying to back it off this thing, and to think it's instructive to look at Sara Nelson, for instance, we introduced her in Chief Leader, leads the flight attendant screening with the CWA. 17 different air carriers, Brian, 50,000 flight attendants. What she told me, this should come as no surprise, is where unions met with labor with a big whiteboard, like you guys do at WNYC, and worked it out and promulgated it together, they had compliance.

Brian Lehrer: Bob, do you think, this is really interesting to hear the distinction that you're drawing between the way Mayor de Blasio approached the unions, and the way President Biden, and the airlines and others did, or even the way he approached the teachers' union, he's been on this show, as I think you've heard, and he said it elsewhere, saying, first, he started with voluntary, then he went to incentives, cash incentives, and only now is he resorting to mandates for the minority of holdouts in these departments. He would say, it's not like he wasn't in communication with the unions, these just happened to be the agencies that are the most resistant, unlike the teachers.

Bob Hennelly: No, I would disagree with that timeline because I wrote those stories that don't get much traction because they're about the granularity of labor working people. This has been-- You cannot have something as large as 310,000 people, which is what we're talking about, go through an event like this. I think there's a lack of appreciation here. Remember, cluster [unintelligible 00:08:16] of these people died from this virus, and many of them, most of them before the vaccine was available. As a society, we're not processing what that means. What does it mean if you're an FDNY, EMT who's had to live in a car because you didn't want to bring it home to your pregnant wife?

There needs to be a conversation about what's happened here. I know there's an imperative to march on with the economy for the holidays, but that's why it's so important to have a collaborative. Let this mass death event set in motion a new way we engage each other. That's what I'm saying.

Brian Lehrer: Bob, with that in mind, how do you, as somebody who reports on municipal workers, understand why EMT workers in particular, let's take them as maybe the most obvious example, coming in to very intimate face-to-face physical contact with sick patients all the time, why would there be a 20% or more resistance level in that worker population?

Bob Hennelly: First, it's important to note that the latest we got from the fire department was that 80% of EMTs have now complied, so it's jumped significantly. This is very much a moving target. I think that this has to do with the fact that public employees are not disconnected from the society at large, where because we've unfunded or disconnected news gathering, it authenticates information and relied on Facebook. Can we be surprised? Do you think the police firefighters, sanitation, or EMTs, or even health professionals are immune from a distorting system? We've learned that Facebook actually put profits over people and actually, promoted analytics which served up misinformation?

Brian Lehrer: Wow.

Bob Hennelly: That has to be part of this conversation.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, this is the segment where I felt we wouldn't be talking about Facebook-

Bob Hennelly: Sorry.

Brian Lehrer: -or Meta as Mark Zuckerberg is going to rename it. Christina Greer, you want to get in on any of this? What are you thinking as we hear Bob's reporting?

Christina Greer: When Bob mentions these individuals sleeping in their car so they don't bring it home to their families, this is proving our point, [chuckles] that more and more people need to get vaccinated. The data is not a figment of our imagination. We know that these public servants have put themselves at risk, and have done so for a year and a half in ways that we can't even imagine, so why is it that you would continue to put your family, your colleagues, and yourself at risk to say nothing of the general public by not getting vaccinated?

We can look at the numbers of folks who were crowding our hospitals, they're by and large, the unvaccinated. We can look at the people who are still dying, by and large, the unvaccinated. As police officers interact with the public, as members of the EMT interact with the public, why would you not protect yourself and others by doing so? The logic does not make sense right here, especially for this particular population.

Brian Lehrer: Bob, you gave a partial answer to that already. Let me ask, can we go up the chain and ask how do you understand the union leaders who are--? You and I have had many conversations about unions over the years, and they are supposed to be, they would say, they are for the public good and social justice, not just protecting every wrongheaded thing that a member of their union might do just because the person is in the union. How do you understand the union leaders' positions on this, which are to many people incomprehensible because they say, "We're recommending that our members get the vaccines but we're opposed to the mandate"?

Bob Hennelly: I think that this is the [unintelligible 00:11:59] of, and having worked for unions as well, they have to represent every individual. That is a fiduciary and legal obligation. They have to do all the other things you just mentioned. I'll give you a case study because that's where it's important to dig in. A 44-year-old female Parks Department employee, a member of Local 983, Joe Puleo, part of DC 37 called, she had just had heart surgery. It gets granular, Brian, and she was worried, "Should I take the vaccine? If I don't--" Jammed up with this 5:00 PM tonight deadline. They luckily had an internist on call to give her some confidence.

What I would say to you is that there is a certain situation that happened here where it got politicized. They're not in the bell jar. These unions operate in a world where they are still part of a society that went through a mass death event, we lost more people in the Spanish flu, and an insurrection. That I do think that actually, this vaccination moment, for all its tension, is going to be a healing moment because we're having these conversations.

I have to tell you, that firefighter rally yesterday had African American people involved with the United Female Firefighters, Jackie Martinez, Lieutenant FDNY, speaking about the importance of the civil liberties of having a choice about whether or not to get vaccinated. She is vaccinated, but they want there to be the preservation of basic things that are part of the law also, which are the right to a medical exemption. We've had this in The Chief. You know there are medical exemptions that are real, that do need to be protected for the well-being of these public employees.

Brian Lehrer: Bob Hennelly, a journalist who reports on unions, among other things for The Chief Leader, which covers New York City municipal employees and municipal unions, among the other work that Bob does. Bob, thank you for joining us for a few minutes.

Bob Hennelly: Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Christina, I'm going to go to a caller next. A city employee. Tanya in Queens. Hi, Tanya.

Tanya: Hi. How are you, Brian? I love this show. Listen, I'm a city employee, I got vaccinated when they called us back in May. I don't mind doing vaccinations if that's your choice, but I don't really think they should mandate it. They told people, you could take the test every week. They did that and then y'all still going to force them to do a test that they don't want to do? I never wanted to take the test. I don't like people keep saying and I think everybody's lying when they say the people in the hospital are the people who are unvaccinated.

Brian Lehrer: Really?

Tanya: When I know more people who got vaccinated-- Yes, I really think they're lying, just to get their point across, just to make people do it. I'm vaccinated, I kid you not, but I think it's a choice. If other people from different religions, if they are okay with it, why can't it just be regular across the board? I just think-- I'm with the city workers, and I'm tired of de Blasio. He don't have no facts behind it.

Brian Lehrer: Tanya, thank you very much for your call. We're going to go to Akeisha in Greenpoint. You're on WNYC. Hey, Akeisha?

Akeisha: I think a lot of it is financial. We don't want to test them every week, that's expensive. We're testing, we're wasting so much money on tests or whatever, and we're just going to gush on vaccine already. Then also, I feel like maybe they were holding out till the last minute to see what is the best deal they can get out of the city. Now they're all getting $500 extra for getting vaccinated. If I had already gotten vaccinated by choice, I'd be almost upset. How come they're getting $500 now? It seems like it's under this guise of this political theater, but really, they just want a little bit more to see what they can get. That's just my opinion though.

Brian Lehrer: Akeisha, thank you very much. I know there was some pushback from the Teachers' Union. They got the $100 incentive. Now, it's been up for these unions that are more recalcitrant to $500. Some teachers are saying, "Hey, where's my other 400?" Steve in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Steve.

Steve: Hi. Good morning, Brian. Thanks for having me on. I'm a FDNY active firefighter, I am unvaccinated. I will be reporting for duty Monday. I am not sure what's going to happen. I do not want to be sent home. I took an oath to protect the community that I serve in. I'm heartbroken over this. In terms of my own views on the vaccine, I believe it should be a choice. There are numerous studies, you could go back and forth with natural immunity or how much- even if you're vaccinated, how much virus you can actually still shed. If you get the vaccine, you have a lesser case to your- less of an impact being sick on yourself, but you can still shed the virus to other people. I'm also--

Brian Lehrer: Also much less so, according to the science. You can shed, but also much less. Go ahead, Steve.

Steve: I'm also of the opinion-- We just had the UN Conference a few weeks ago where there were nations, much poorer nations with much unhealthier populations begging for at least first vaccines. Now we're talking about the definition of fully vaccinated is going to be constantly changing boosters, et cetera. I don't want to get into where I stand with it for children, but I think it should be a choice.

If you're offering all the city employees who've held out, whatever the last caller said, for a better deal, $500 a member, what's the budget for testing? $500 times, I don't know, how many 300. You're talking millions and millions, tens of millions of dollars. What is the city's not protesting per week, per employee?

Brian Lehrer: The science is the doctors would say and the mayor would say, the science is that the testing doesn't stop the spread of the virus in the way that the vaccines do because the testing is only good for a day or two to accurately reflect your status. Steve, let me ask you one question. First of all, thank you for your service as a firefighter. When you said that--

Steve: Don't send me home. Don't send me home. Let me serve.

Brian Lehrer: I understand.

Steve: I'll just make one more quick thing. As far as people having confidence, I'm not going to say how I lean politically, but we could not even get an infrared thermometer during the peak of this. We were asked to come in and take our temperatures. They couldn't even roll that out. $100 piece of equipment to each firehouse. I do not know and I'm afraid for my family and friends who are residents of this city. I do not know the impact of what the rollout will be in terms of staffing for EMS. I love our paramedics, our EMTs on the street, I love our police officers, I love my brothers and sisters on the job. I'm afraid and I'm angry. Thank you for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: Steve, can I ask you one follow-up question to the point-

Steve: Sure.

Brian Lehrer: -of what you just said and what you said at the beginning of your call that you took an oath to serve and protect the safety of the people of this city. Why not see complying with a vaccine mandate as part of that during a pandemic?

Steve: Because I don't think you can treat every employee the same. We were told to file a religious exemption before the 27th, I believe. There was a blanket statement basically saying that under-- I'm not sure the level of scrutiny, but those would all be denied. Medical exemptions, I'm not sure of. I was recently diagnosed with Crohn's disease, irritable bowel syndrome. I don't know if that would predilect me from getting the vaccine from being immunocompromised, I don't know.

The rollout for this, the timeline has been entirely arbitrary and the effectiveness of- so let's say, a member takes the vaccine, well, you're still going to be out, not completely vaccinated for an additional two weeks, I'm understanding, between shots. I'm not sure if that's the Moderna or the Pfizer, whatever-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Yes, three or four weeks between shots. I don't think that's the requirement because it's just a one-shot requirement, and I think you could come to work the next day.

Steve: That is what they're saying, but if you're not considered completely vaccinated until you have both shots, what's the efficacy of that? I don't know how far we want to split this, but I do not believe it should be a mandate. I am pro-choice, I'm pro-vaccine for those who want it. I personally believe what shot is reserved for me should go to somebody who is immuno and who is unwell, who could die from not getting this. I did not die, I fought through it. I believe they should have the shot because they may also have a family to support.

Brian Lehrer: Right, and there's no shortage of supply for those people. Steve, thank you for your call. I really appreciate it. Christina Greer, what are you thinking listening to that set of calls?

Christina Greer: I think that, as I've said many, many times before, one of the most dangerous side effects of the Trump administration is calling truth and facts into question. I wish some people could see what an inside of a hospital looks like, talking to doctors and nurses and staff who have had to deal with this for the past year and a half. Every time they hear that certain ding or code, that means someone's dying in a hospital, the way they haven't been able to be with their families, the fear that they have of getting COVID, this is well before the vaccine. This idea that now folks are worried about poor children and other countries, and that's why they're not vaccinating themselves, or they believe in a person's right to choose, yet that doesn't apply when it comes to abortion politics. The mental gymnastics that people are giving themselves to not get vaccinated is quite disturbing and sadly, largely--

Brian Lehrer: The first caller even said that she didn't believe that 90% of the people in the hospitals for COVID are the unvaccinated. We hear, if you watch the news, watch the national news, you're seeing people from Idaho, you're seeing people from Oklahoma, you're seeing people from every state in America or wherever they send a camera crew that day from those hospitals saying, 90% of the people hospitalized with COVID are the unvaccinated. That statistic alone proves the efficacy of the vaccines, and yet, people don't even believe that.

Christina Greer: No. How can you force someone to believe the truth? I think that's going to be a vestige of the Trump era far, far beyond Donald Trump himself. I would encourage people to try and have conversations with their friends and loved ones who aren't vaccinated. I think also, Brian, we've talked about the number of police officers who refuse to wear masks who are out and about, and the danger that they present to themselves and to others.

I do think that de Blasio could have and should have talked to union leadership before this mandate, that may have helped the negotiation just a touch, but we do know that there are just going to be some obstinate, calcitrant individuals who do not see themselves as part of the collective good and are choosing to say, it's their body and they know themselves better than others. Which they're entitled to that opinion, but the facts and the data, when you talk to doctors, nurses, and staff, who've been on the frontlines literally for these past 18 months and the sacrifices they've made and the loved ones they've lost, and the colleagues they've lost working in and out of hospitals, is egregious to think that there are so many individuals, roughly a third of public servants in the city who are refusing to do something for the greater good for the citizens of New York.

Brian Lehrer: It was chilling to hear that last firefighter's call, and I really appreciate his calling to engage with us, how scary he- how scared he sounded for what might happen on Monday with respect to staffing of emergency services. We will obviously be talking about that on Monday's show. Christina, in our last minute and a half, we were going to do this longer, but I think we made the right choice, as those calls were coming in, to focus on the intensity of this current situation with the New York City vaccine mandate.

The other thing we were going to talk about in more detail was this misdemeanor sexual misconduct-related charge against former Governor Cuomo, an actual criminal misdemeanor charge. I will note one thing and ask you a big picture question about it. The criminal complaint says that he did what he did to Brittany Commisso allegedly "for the purposes of degrading and gratifying his sexual desires" the alleged groping. It was interesting to me that the word degrading was in there and not just gratifying his sexual desires. I'm curious what you think about if the specter, the spectacle, I should say, of all of this helps in the fight for workplace equity outside the Capitol.

Christina Greer: I think so, Brian, and [unintelligible 00:25:53] as someone who is definitely been sexually harassed in the workplace and in the political sphere more times than I care to either count or recount. I think that's part of the power dynamic is to degrade an individual in many ways, stun them into silence. The fact that the former governor is coming to in a court of law, have to justify and explain all the things that went down during some of his tenure, is probably going to be a real shift not just in Albany, but how elected officials and executives of cities and states across the country are held accountable. I think it also--

Brian Lehrer: Christina Greer, Fordham University political science professor, host of a podcast FAQ NYC, and author of the book Black Ethnics, sorry to say, we are entirely out of time, but always great to have you on. Thank you so much.

Christina Greer: Thanks, Brian.

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