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Brian: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We'll begin today with a breaking COVID vaccine development that contains both good news and bad news. The good news is that Johnson & Johnson announced this morning that its single shot vaccine is proving to be 85% effective against severe COVID-19 in its global clinical trials. The bad news is it's the second vaccine in two days to be found not as effective against the so-called South Africa variant of the disease, and the South Africa variant is now in the United States.

You may have heard that another brand of vaccine announced something similar yesterday. A vaccine from the company Novavax announced that its clinical trials were showing 90% effectiveness, but also weaker against the South Africa variant. Also on the Johnson & Johnson, they're saying 85% effective against serious COVID, but only 66% effective overall, we'll explain what that means. Here's Dr. Fauci on Morning Edition yesterday, asked if he thinks the current vaccines will be effective against the South Africa variant and the one from the UK.

Dr. Fauci: The one in the UK, that is clearly in the United States in at least more than 300 people in 28 states, it looks like the vaccine that we're using now could handle that quite well. However, it's more concerning with what we're dealing with in South Africa. What we want to do and we're doing it is to go ahead and make a version of the vaccine, which is not that difficult to do, that might serve as a boost to directly address the one in South Africa just in case that mutant does become dominant in the United States.

Brian: He said just in case. That interview was yesterday morning. Then later in the day, the South Africa variant was confirmed in two patients in South Carolina. We're told that neither person had traveled and they did not have contact with each other. They were in different parts of the state. The South Africa variant appears to be here and spreading in this community, the US community.

What does it all mean? With us now is Dr. Krutika Kuppalli, infectious diseases physician who has focused on the care of vulnerable patients in the US and abroad among other things. She's got expertise in emerging infections and biosecurity, teaches at the Medical University of South Carolina. She is also vice chair of the global health committee at the Infectious Diseases Society of America. Dr. Kuppalli, thanks for some time today. Welcome back to WNYC.

Dr. Krutika Kuppalli: Hi, thanks for having me.

Brian: Can we start with the South Africa variant? What makes it different from the previously known variants of COVID?

Dr. Kuppalli: It has to do with some of the mutations in the spike protein. The spike protein is what is used on the coronavirus to enter the patient to infect the patient. That's what is concerning. It looks like that, what we call the South African variant, which is the mutations in it, can cause increased transmissibility. It can move from person to person a bit more easily. That's concerning because when it's more transmissible, it can lead to more infections, which leads to more hospitalizations, and then potentially more deaths as well.

Brian: How much does the presence of the South Africa variant in the US now complicate the prospects for success of the national vaccination campaign in terms of the herd immunity or national immunity that these vaccines would otherwise bring?

Dr. Kuppalli: We know that the two vaccines we're using so far, Moderna and the Pfizer vaccine, they still work against the South African variant. I don't think that that's anything for us to be concerned about. Like Dr. Fauci said yesterday, they are working to develop these booster vaccines if the South African variant becomes the predominant variant in this country.

I think what we all need to worry about though, is what we're seeing is with these variants is if we don't get this outbreak under control, is what can happen down the line. Is that we could have other variants, other mutations that could further compromise the integrity of our vaccines. It's really important that we get this outbreak under control to prevent this from further happening and further compromising the integrity of our vaccines.

Brian: This booster shot that Dr. Fauci and you have now referred to, that would mean in the case of Pfizer and Moderna, a third shot somewhere down the line?

Dr. Kuppalli: Potentially, if needed. Like I said, they've looked already at the Moderna vaccine and the Pfizer vaccine, and it does appear that both of these vaccines, they still give protective neutralizing antibodies against the South African variant. The protective levels, just not as at high levels as against what we're calling the original strain of the coronavirus. To be clear, you still have protective levels of neutralizing antibodies, but they're just not as high as what we were seeing with the original strain of coronavirus.

Brian: Listeners, we can take your coronavirus questions today for Dr. Krutika Kuppalli. It can be on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. It can be on the South Africa strain. It can be on anything else. 646-435-7286, 646-435-7286, or you can tweet a question @BrianLehrer. Doctor the Johnson & Johnson, single-shot vaccine, 66% effective overall in the results announced this morning, 85% against severe disease. I'm seeing one version that says a 100% effective against hospitalization and deaths. Pick apart those various numbers for us, if you can.

Dr. Kuppalli: We don't have all the data just as of yet. What was released, they said, it was a large group of individuals across the world. Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Columbia, Mexico, Peru, South Africa, and the United States. 44,325 adult volunteers, 468 cases of symptomatic COVID, and overall 66% effective in preventing the study's combined end points of moderate and severe COVID-19 at 28 days post-vaccination.

Moderate COVID-19 was defined as patients who had laboratory-confirmed COVID plus following evidence of pneumonia, DVT, difficulty breathing, or abnormal oxygen saturation, or a respiratory rate greater than 20 or two or more signs and symptoms suggested with COVID. Then people who had moderate to severe disease varied. It was 72% in the United States and then 57% in South Africa. I think one of the things that is concerning is that the 72% in the United States, but lower in South Africa, and we'll have to learn more about what exactly that means when we get the full data.

With the lower percent in South Africa, again, because of that variant that we're seeing in South Africa, and how that could affect the data that we see here in the United States if we see that South African variant become more predominant here. I will say that Johnson & Johnson is currently conducting a trial with two doses of the vaccine. It'll be interesting to see how the efficacy of the vaccine plays out as we have two doses of vaccine, and could that effect what we see with that data as well.

Brian: With those numbers, is there any reason to use that vaccine at all when we have the Pfizer and Moderna, both believed to be more effective, if I'm understanding those numbers correctly?

Dr. Kuppalli: Absolutely, there's a reason to use the Johnson vaccine. This is a vaccine that, first off, is a single dose, which is simple. The storage for this vaccine is incredibly simple. It's refrigeration versus the ultra-cold storage for the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine, so it's easily deployable. Secondly, I think that this still is good data. 72% here in the United States is very good and we have to think about the logistics of the rollout which have been very complicated with the other two vaccines.

We want to give people protection, and this will do that, and I think we need to keep that in mind. Any vaccines that we have that can help in our toolbox to help prevent coronavirus are very important, and we need to do everything that we can to try and get shots in arms for people to give them protection. I think the other thing that's important is that, again, when we look at the data, there are no deaths related to COVID-19 in the vaccine group, and I think that's really important is that this helps prevent people from dying and that is a very good thing.

Brian: You want to hear a heartwarming story that also points up the challenges with these vaccines that need intense refrigeration. Listeners, you're going to like this story if you haven't seen it already, but it does also point up, as I say, the challenges and then we'll go to the phones for Dr. Kuppalli.

Headline New York Times, Health Workers Stuck in Snow Administer Coronavirus Vaccine to Stranded Drivers. Public health workers in Josephine County, Oregon, said they had walked from car to car giving shots to drivers with vaccine doses that would expire in six hours.

The public health workers were driving back from the vaccination site in rural Cave Junction, Oregon on Tuesday when they got stuck in a snowstorm on the highway. They knew that in only six hours to get the remaining doses of coronavirus vaccine back to people who are waiting for their shots in Grants Pass, roughly 30 miles away, but with a jackknifed tractor-trailer ahead of them, the crew realized they could be stuck for hours and the doses would expire. The workers made the decision to walk from car to car asking stranded drivers if they wanted to be vaccinated right there on the spot. Dr. Kuppalli, did you know about that story?

Kuppalli: I did. I had heard about that, I can't remember if it was yesterday or the day before, but I think that shows to the dedication and the loyalty of our healthcare workers during this time. I was so amazed by their tenacity and their dedication to making sure that not a single dose of the vaccine was lost during this time when there's been so much scrutiny about vaccine doses being wasted. It just, again, goes to show how difficult it is to make sure that we use this vaccine in such a small window of time.

To your point, it is really important that we make sure that we have other vaccines that are easier to get, where we don't have this ultra-cold storage, and we can get them to people in a easier way. I really applaud those healthcare workers for going over and beyond. It really warms my heart to see these great stories being told about how we have these frontline workers doing such wonderful things during this period of time.

Brian: If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Krutika Kuppalli, infectious diseases physician at the Medical University of South Carolina, also in leadership with the Infectious Diseases Society of America. Susanna in Nyack, you're on WNYC with Dr. Kuppalli. Hi, Susanna.

Susanna: Hi, Brian, hi, Dr. Kuppalli, thanks for taking my call. I wanted to ask you, Dr. Kuppalli, if there's any way of knowing that the virus we have in America isn't just mutating exactly like the South African one or the UK one, but it's actually originating right here, not not coming in with travelers.

Dr. Kuppalli: Yes, that's a very good question that. I wonder that all the time as well. The UK has done a great job of doing genetic sequencing to identify if they have these variants or mutations, and unfortunately, here in the United States we have not been as progressive with doing that. We are working on getting that up and going, and so we are doing more and more of that to see if we can identify strains here in the United States, and hopefully, we will start doing more and more of that, but new administration has announced that they are dedicated to doing more genetic sequencing.

If there are strains like that showing up, we will be able to identify that, but thus far, we have not been as proactive to be able to identify those types of things. Hopefully, we will be more proactive going forward.

Brian: Here's a related question, I think, from Joel in Sea Cliff. Joel, you're on WNYC, hi.

Joel: Hi, good morning, thanks for taking the call. Just a follow-up on the previous caller. My question was basically the same, but it leads me to ask, isn't it a little dangerous to be calling it the South African strain, as we probably have mutations here in the US, kind of similar to the Hong Kong flu or Chinese flu? Why the name South African?

Brian: Yes, and I think Dr. Kuppalli, I think part of what these callers have in mind that maybe they're not exactly saying directly, is we know how Trump use a slur, made up the slur China virus, so knowing discrimination in general against people from Africa, does labeling something that is a virus and has nothing to do with anyone's nationality, the South Africa variant in the first place, things like that. Why do we do it and does it have danger to mislead?

Dr. Kuppalli: You're absolutely right. Actually, the variant is called B1351. You're absolutely right, I should probably be referring to it as B1351 and not the South African variant. Those of us in the scientific community should do better with that. The one that has become known as the UK variant is called B117, and the one that's been known as the "South African variant" is called B1351. They have to do with the lineage of how they're related phylogenetically and unfortunately, because it's easier to remember the South African variant rather than how they're named phylogenetically, that's how they become called.

That's, unfortunately, how it happens. You're right to call me out on that and I should probably be referring to it as their scientific name. The reason I don't is because I also do feel if I do that, then people also won't know what I'm talking about.

Brian: Because then you have to get the whole--

Dr. Kuppalli: I definitely will, going forward.

Brian: Yes, then you'd have to get the whole national media to go along with you so everybody knows what you're talking about.

Dr. Kuppalli: Exactly, right, but going forward, I will call it by its scientific name so I'm at least not perpetuating the stigma, but you are right and it becomes very complicated, because we don't want to perpetuate stigma. We don't know that it wasn't originated somewhere, that's where it was just first found and so absolutely right for asking that question and that's a very important point to make, so thank you.

Brian: All right. We have so many calls for Dr. Kuppalli, we'll get to many more of you. When we come back, I'm going to ask you a question from a listener on Twitter that I know is a hot topic right now having to do with vaccinations and pregnancy, and so much more to come, stay with us, Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Coming up on Monday's Brian Lehrer Show, we're going to talk to a guest who knows about deprogramming your friends and relatives who are ready to come down off the QAnon cult. We'll talk about that on Monday. We'll also preview Tuesday's special election in Queens, which is going to be the first one to use the new ranked-choice voting system in New York City, so should be some very interesting segments coming up on Monday's Brian Lehrer Show.

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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we're talking COVID-19 news, new developments on the vaccine front, the new variants front, and other things with Dr. Krutika Kuppalli from the Medical University of South Carolina. All right, Dr. Kuppalli, Elena on Twitter asks the hot question of the moment amongst so many people, what about people who are currently pregnant getting vaccinated? There isn't much data, she writes, but some pregnant people are getting vaccinated, others are waiting. Do you advise?

Dr. Kuppalli: Sure. That's a great question and one I get asked very often. The CDC has come out and recommended that if you are in what we call high-risk population, and want to get vaccinated, you have to have a discussion with your healthcare provider but it is okay to proceed with vaccine. The American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, the Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine, they have come out and endorsed vaccination for pregnant women with the Pfizer and the Moderna vaccine.

It is considered to be safe to go ahead and get vaccinated because this is an mRNA vaccine. It's not what we call a live vaccine. They have done some animal studies, and those look to be safe. It is safe, however, we don't have the in-human data, we have the animal data. That would be my recommendation. We have our society recommendations, we have the CDC recommendation, so that would be where I will end with that.

Brian: Tracy in Hoboken, you're on WNYC with Dr. Kuppalli. Hi, Tracy.

Tracy: Hi. Good morning Dr. Kuppalli and Brian. Love your show.

Brian: Thank you.

Tracy: I was wondering about what I've heard that the booster vaccine will be 66% effective. I'm wondering, is that enough to preclude further problems down the road?

Dr. Kuppalli: The booster? Are you talking about Johnson & Johnson vaccine? Is that what you're talking about?

Brian: Yes. I think he is and maybe he's getting his numbers a little bit scrambled there, because there was a 66% effectiveness description in a certain way as you went over it, but then the booster would apparently make it more effective than that, but I think he's reflecting the uncertainty that a lot of people have, hearing that a vaccine is 66% effective. That's two-thirds. How confident do I feel going back to normal life if I have a vaccine that I know gives me one-third chance of still getting sick?

Dr. Kuppalli: Sure. First off, the vaccine data that came out showed that it was 72% effective here in the United States. Overall, 66% effective when they looked at the pool data from everybody all over the world who was vaccinated, so that's the first thing. Secondly, I think we also need to take into account now, we have such a high bar based on the data that came out with Moderna and Pfizer. We got very lucky with the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine. That doesn't happen often or actually ever. I think we need to remember that secondly.

Third of all, having a vaccine that does provide protection against COVID and again, the great thing about this vaccine is that it did meet its endpoints of the study. It prevented people from dying, which is important. It prevented people from--

Brian: At a much higher rate than 66% of those exposed, right?

Dr. Kuppalli: Right, and so we need to remember that. That's very important. Those are all very very good things. Again, as I mentioned Johnson & Johnson is doing a study right now with two doses of the vaccine. That data has not been released and that could change things later on. That's all data we still don't have yet. I think this is very promising, very good data, and keep in mind, we are still having challenges with vaccine rollout. Anything that we have that helps get more vaccine, that we can get into people's arms, that's all positive news here.

I think we all need to look at this as wonderful, encouraging data. Had this news come out back in November before we had Moderna and Pfizer, we all would have been ecstatic. I think we need to keep this in mind that this is wonderful, great news today.

Brian: Here's a question from a listener on Twitter that I think I know how you're going to answer. Listener writes, "Should or can people, especially ones with comorbidities insist on vaccines with higher demonstrated efficacy even if it means waiting a little longer to get it?"

Dr. Kuppalli: I would not.

Brian: I knew you were going to say that.

Dr. Kuppalli: Yes, I would not. We're trying to get vaccines into arms here. I would definitely not try and wait to get the vaccine that you want. It's hard enough to get vaccine as it is. When you have your shot to get a vaccine, I would get what you can get because we don't know when you're going to have an opportunity to get it again. Keep in mind, we're not just vaccinating people in this country, we have to vaccinate the entire global population of over eight billion people.

Right now, we have Moderna, Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, which will likely go before the FDA now, and then in some parts of the world, the AstraZeneca vaccine. Those are going to be the four major vaccines. We have a couple of other ones that are being used in other parts of the world. We have to vaccinate the entire global population if we are going to get this pandemic under control. The world is not safe until every country, everybody is vaccinated. When it's your shot to get a vaccine, that is, in my opinion your luckiest chance. Get what you can get.

Brian: I would add to that that the vaccines that are out there now, the Moderna and the Pfizer, are so effective, have already been demonstrated so effective, that it's especially the people who the listener asked about, those with comorbidities, those vulnerable to serious disease who should most be getting it right now. I assume you agree?

Dr. Kuppalli: Yes. If you have an opportunity to get a vaccine, if it's Moderna, Pfizer, if it's Johnson & Johnson when it gets approved, you want to get whatever you can get. You want to do anything you can to protect yourself. My recommendation would be get what you have offered to you. Don't wait to see what you can get, wait to get, just get what you can get.

Brian: Bradley in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Bradley.

Bradley: Hi, thank you for taking my call. 30% of the population in Israel has received at least one dose, but every time I see the news it's more disturbing, with the cases rising and hospitals being squeezed. Why the discrepancy?

Brian: Are you familiar with Israel? I didn't know that the cases are currently high. I have seen some press recently about their success at administering the vaccine to a larger percentage of the population more quickly than any place here. Dr. Kuppalli do you know about any of that?

Dr. Kuppalli: I am familiar with the vaccination success. I am not familiar with the cases rising there so I cannot speak intelligently about what's going on there. I'm sorry.

Brian: I'm not sure that --we could look it up, but I'm not sure that that's happening simultaneously. I think they had a really bad outbreak, and then more recently they've been having success with the vaccine. If the caller is implying that the vaccine isn't working in Israel, I don't think that's the news story, from what I've seen.

The Israel success makes me think of West Virginia of all places, talking about two places that are different, Israel and West Virginia, but what do they have in common? Apparently, the percentage of the population that they're vaccinating, and of course, West Virginia is a small and fairly homogeneous state, which probably helps, but here is Governor Jim Justice, governor of West Virginia on CNN Wednesday night, after being asked by Don Lemon to what he attributes the strong numbers.

Governor Jim Justice: Well, we quit being a bureaucracy. We handled it with just practical, down-home, good sense. We recruited our pharmacies, and our local health clinics, and our National Guard, and we absolutely looked at this as age, age, age, and only that way, and we ran to the fire. We immediately knew that absolutely having vaccines sitting in a warehouse was chaotic. We absolutely managed what we did, and we did that with the local help, and we did that with our National Guard, and we've employed all kinds of different practices, but we're putting these shots in people's arms and we're putting them in arms very quickly, and it's working, it's really working. It's almost a managed chaos, but it's truly worked.

Brian: Some of that, he's just saying, "Oh, we have good down-home common sense," but some of those were specifics like National Guards and neighborhood National Guard members, and neighborhood pharmacies. Any lesson in that from West Virginia for the other 49 states that might be having more trouble?

Dr. Kuppalli: Yes, absolutely. I definitely think you just need to go back to grassroots community outreach, and go to people, and really get the bureaucracy out of it. That is actually the point there that I think is very important, get the bureaucracy out of it, and we need to just make this simple. We've made it extremely complicated in this country. I think because we made it so complicated, it makes it difficult to get things done.

I think, especially from where I am sitting and seeing things as well, I think that we need to get to the populations that need it most, our elderly or people with comorbidities, and our disenfranchised patient populations. In order to do that, we need to get the red tape out of the way. We need to be able to get to patients who need it. We need to be able to go to them, we need to be able to just get the vaccines into arms. I think that really means by trying to have mobile vaccination units working with federally-qualified healthcare clinics by developing these public-private partnerships. I think those are things that we need to be able to do and then we would be able to give a vaccine into people much quicker.

Brian: Here's the Israel story from Reuters, we just looked it up. It says, Israel, which has already given a full set of Pfizer and BioNTech vaccinations through over 6% of its citizens, I guess 6% is a lot, considering where other countries are at so far. After that, they have not registered a single serious COVID-19 case among those vaccinated, even as infections surge in the wider population, the government said on Tuesday. There's how those two things could be happening at the same time, but it still demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccine.

There is also an issue in Israel with not giving the vaccine to Palestinians at the same rate as Jewish Israelis, so that's a human rights issue, but there's the science also, as per Reuters. On Johnson & Johnson, here's a question about whether you think they'll be up against even more vaccine hesitancy among Black and brown Americans and people around the world, given their aggressive marketing of talcum powder to Black women, despite the known or suspected cancer risks.

Dr. Kuppalli: I hope not. I hadn't even thought about that, but I hope not, because I think this is a really great vaccine that we can use in patient populations that might be not engaged in the medical care, which tend to be our indigent patient populations. This is a great vaccine for people who may be less likely to come back and get their second vaccine. This may be a great vaccine for people who are difficult to reach. I really hope not, that we can separate those two things.

I understand that it may not be separated, so we are going to have to really work to gain people's trust, and talk to them, and address those issues. We've had to do that with the vaccine in general, surrounding other concerns and patient populations, around just the way the healthcare system has not characteristically taken good care of minority populations so that this might just be another way we have to work with patients to get them to trust the vaccine.

Brian: All right, Dr. Kuppalli, you're ready for some breaking vaccination news even as we sit here? Just in, from the Associated Press, regulators authorized AstraZeneca's coronavirus vaccine for use in adults throughout the European Union this morning, amid criticism, the bloc is not moving fast enough to vaccinate its population. That's not here, that's the EU, but another vaccine now given authorization, the AstraZeneca vaccine, and I'm looking down this story to see if I see the effectiveness percentages there. I know we had seen earlier, 70% effectiveness for AstraZeneca, but any first blush reaction to that?

Dr. Kuppalli: I'm not surprised that that vaccine was approved there based on some of the data we had seen before. I know that there's been some discussion about whether or not how efficacious it is in older people. I'd be curious to know what patient population they've approved the vaccine for, if they've actually approved it for everybody or--

Brian: They approved it for all adults. Although this says only 12% of the participants in the research were over 55, only 12% were over 55 and they were enrolled later, so there hasn't been enough time to get results, says the AP.

Dr. Kuppalli: Okay. I think again, given what's going on, particularly in the UK with the B117 variant again, I think we need all hands-on deck when it comes to vaccines. I think that we know that the AstraZeneca data also looks good and is also favorable. I think that this is another step in the right direction for trying to get shots to the arms, and to try and help give people protection at this point in time. I think this is another good step.

Brian: Reading further into this AP story. It says the agency, that's the European Health Agency, said the research showed the vaccine proved to be about 60% effective by reducing the number of people who got sick. The trials have not yet shown whether the vaccine can stop disease transmission. Some more details on that, and that's true about all the vaccines. We don't know yet, even if they prevent you from getting seriously ill, whether they protect you from transmitting the vaccine to others who might not be vaccinated.

Dr. Kuppalli: Yes, absolutely. We don't know if any of these vaccines prevent you from transmitting the virus to other people, which is why we have to continue to remind people that it's very important. Even if you've been vaccinated, you have to continue to adhere to these public health measures, so continue to wear your face mask, continue to wash your fans, continue to maintain your physical distance, and continue to please avoid crowds, because you could still be colonized in your nasopharynx, and then go be around somebody, and then transmit the virus to somebody else, and that's the last thing I think any of us want to do at this point.

Brian: Indeed. One more call. Liz in Brooklyn,, you're on WNYC with Dr. Krutika Kuppalli on COVID-19. Hi.

Liz: Hi. Speaking of what you were just discussing, which is people who've been vaccinated and the possibility of giving it to others and also gathering. In New York City, a couple of interesting facts, students eat lunch with their masks off in classrooms every day, and there's about 190,000 students going to school. Not necessarily everyday because not everybody goes every day, but anyway, in a given week. I'm part of a group called Parents for Responsive Equitable Safe Schools and we've been looking at incident numbers for New York City, and found that they could be as high as 38% higher incidents of COVID for staff than for the general population, and even as high as 9% for the students.

It's really a very serious situation, and so the assumption that if teachers get vaccinated, that that's going to really correct things. They, as you know, can bring it back to their families, and the students can bring it to each other, and they can bring it back to their families. We have this big push to get more and more and more people into schools, and it's really quite frightening because we love our teachers, we love the families, and it's very dangerous and there's new variants. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Brian: On the ever-hot topic of schools and teachers, Doctor?

Dr. Kuppalli: I think it's all very challenging. I think that there's lots of situations that put lots of people at risk, and trying to do everything we can to mitigate that risk is really important.

First of all, I think that when it comes to children and eating, trying to do everything we can to help mitigate that risk during the times that they're together is really important. Do I think that we need to try and do everything to try and get everyone who's in these essential jobs vaccinated as soon as possible? Yes. That's all I can say about that. I know that there's a lot of challenges to trying to figure out how, and when. If I had a vaccine to give every single person that I felt like needed a vaccine right now, I absolutely would. That's all I can say about that right now.

Brian: We're not going to solve the open schools, closing schools controversies here this morning, and we're also not going to solve the Israeli-Palestine--

Liz: Brian, can you still hear me?

Brian: Yes.

Liz: I was just going to say, it's just to move away from that binary. I've been working with this amazing group of women all since this summer, but they've been-- they're members of their community education, they're presidents of their community education councils. They've been doing work for years, and years, and years, and I think it's really important to move away from the binary of keep them open or keep them closed, because it's really about--

Something that came up in your show yesterday was a person from an independent school, and she talked about the many, many, many things they were doing to try and keep their community safe, so there's a big difference between what we're doing right now in New York City and what could be done to make it so much safer.

As a person who, I think can be characterized in the Keep Them Closed camp, it's really not where we're coming from at all. We've just been about a safe, prioritized reopening of schools, and listening to the science, and so much of the science says, we need way more testing, and we need very precise metrics like incidence numbers. There's so many things that we need that could equal a safe, safer-- the word safe is ridiculous because there's always so much risk, but a safer reopening, and that's just not what we've had in New York Cty.

Brian: Great points, Liz, thank you very much. As I was starting to say, we won't solve the Israeil-Palestinian conflict in this segment either. Listener tweets, "Please correct what you said about Israel not sharing vaccine with the Palestinians. Under the Oslo Accords Article 17--," the listener writes, "--the Palestinian authority is responsible for public health and it has admitted it didn't ask Israel for vaccine, they have ordered Russian vaccine," so not to say that's the definitive version of events from that listener, but just to say, there are, as usual, versions of interpretations for what's going on between Israel and the Palestinians, so there you go.

Therem we leave it with Dr. Krutika Kuppalli, from the Medical University of South Carolina. Thank you for so much information today. We really appreciate it, and we look forward to having you back next time.

Dr. Kuppalli: Thank you for having me.

 

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