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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC, Good morning again, everyone. First this hour one slight correction from our previous segment, because I know a lot of people are interested in who Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is endorsing in various races. We had said that she endorsed one candidate, we got some corrections on that and we looked it up and confirmed that in fact, she has endorsed two candidates equally in the District 39 City Council race, in Brooklyn, Shahana Hanif and Brandon West.

Two AOC endorsements, and if you're interested in who she endorses, you'll choose who to rank first and rank second, obviously, but I want to make sure that for the sake of accuracy, both these names are out there as endorsed by AOC, Hanif and West, in District 39 in Brooklyn.

In COVID related news from over the weekend, the G7 nations have pledged to give a billion vaccine doses to poorer countries, half of that 1 billion will come from the US alone. Here's President Biden, speaking at a press conference in Europe yesterday.

President Joe Biden: We are committed to follow on to do some significant work including not only how we deal with the distribution, and help in getting shots and arms to the rest of the world, but how we're going to deal with putting together a mechanism to anticipate and deal with and be aware of the next pandemic when it comes along, and there will be others.

Brian Lehrer: There will be others, but if a billion donated doses sounds like a lot, it's probably not enough. Earlier this month, the World Health Organization estimated that 11 billion doses are going to be needed worldwide to reach herd immunity and leaders of the United Nations over the weekend criticize the Biden and G7 plan as way too timid. Locally, New York City Health officials have announced that the city has reached "functional immunity". What does that mean for New Yorkers, especially those with ties abroad?

Joining me now to talk about the global vaccination effort and how the US can be most effective and how our global city is a part of that conversation in terms of connections to so many countries abroad, "vaccine tourism" with people coming here for shots and much more. Our S. Mitra Kalita co-founder of URL media and CEO and publisher of Epicenter NYC Mitra back with us. Emily Rauhala Foreign Affairs reporter at The Washington Post back with us. Emily, Mitra, hi there, welcome back to WNYC.

Emily Rauhala: Hi, Brian. Good to be here.

S. Mitra Kalita: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we'll open up the phones right away for people with connections to different countries. How is the COVID-19 vaccine rollout going in your home country? How are your family members navigating finding a vaccine? Have you not been able to go home since the pandemic and why it's a big issue we know for so many families who are not able to be reunited with their loved ones because of travel restrictions. Yet even though there is so much news coverage of many people here doing exactly that, reuniting with their loved ones, which must make it that much more painful for people who can't.

Is it vaccination status standing in the way? Is it immigration status? Give us call 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Emily, can we start with the G7 pledge for a billion doses? Where are they coming from? Who will they be going to and how quickly?

Emily Rauhala: Sure thing. The big news of the G7 actually broke just before the G7 and that was the 500 million Pfizer doses from the United States. After that news broke last week, I think there was an expectation that there would be similarly big announcements from US allies in the G7, but what we saw play out over the weekend was slightly more modest than expected. Yes, the G7 says it's a billion doses, the recipient organization of those doses, COVAX actually says, "Well, it's 870 million doses if we want to get specific."

A big number and that every dose is potentially life saving, and that it is the first real group efforts so to speak. As you said off the top there since the estimate is 11 billion doses are needed, it's still relatively small.

Brian Lehrer: Mitra, do you know why the Pfizer vaccine, which we've long known is the hardest to store since it needs to be kept at like -70 degrees.

S. Mitra Kalita: Do I know I'm sorry, say that one more time, Brian?

Brian Lehrer: I'm just curious if you know, why Biden singled out the Pfizer vaccine? [unintelligible 00:05:18] Emily, but go ahead.

S. Mitra Kalita: I actually don't know why Pfizer in this case. I think we've talked earlier about some of the variants that Pfizer and Moderna have been shown to be effective against, including those that have surfaced in India and Brazil, but I cheered the news because Pfizer has been shown to be effective, but I don't know why he chose Pfizer.

Brian Lehrer: Emily, do you? Again, if it's about distribution all over the world with a lot of transportation of these doses into places that may not be in some cases all that developed with a lot of the best refrigeration equipment, here are these doses that need to go -70 degrees, or whatever the exact number is, until they're used. It's great, because I think it's considered one of the better vaccines but how come?

Emily Rauhala: I think there's two things. The first you just hit on it. This is the vaccine that people want so it's highly effective. People have seen it success in places like Israel and the United States, we have the most data on this vaccine and it's showing really early promise against the variants. Countries, even though they know that it might be more difficult to transport, this is the vaccine that countries for the most part want. They're a little bit suspicious of why they would get the "less good vaccines". There's arguments about whether that's true.

My understanding is a lot of countries want to Pfizer. The other has to do with President Biden's own political line domestically, announcing this, the White House readout stressed that these are doses, to some extent that would be made in the United States. There's a plant in Kalamazoo, for instance, that will be making some of these doses so it gives the administration the chance to cast this not just as a multilateral foreign policy initiative, but as a "by American, American workers type project".

Brian Lehrer: We should say not to be misleading that at least the three brands that are being used in the United States, Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson do seem to be around as effective as each other at keeping people out of the hospital and keeping people from dying from COVID. Not to overstate any difference in their effectiveness.

One other thing on this, Emily, you wrote last week that President Biden's vaccine sharing strategy has been panned by congressional Democrats and some health advocates as too timid and drawn flak from European allies as too bold. What was the criticism from Europe?

Emily Rauhala: Sure. The criticism from Europe has basically two elements. The first is that there's a real divide between what the United States thinks the world should do moving forward on the issue of patents at the World Trade Organization and where Europe stands. The Biden administration reversed its position on the patent issue, which could help make it easier to make vaccines elsewhere in the world where they're badly needed. Europe is basically holding the old US position holding the line on that saying, "This isn't the best way forward." That's the heart of the criticism.

There's also a criticism from Europe, saying, "It's nice that you guys want to jump into vaccine diplomacy right now, but your use of the defense production act and other measures have really put America first at the expense of others. Meanwhile, we Europe are sharing," so there's a bit of a standoff happening between the United States and Europe on this particular issue and I think we see that in the very modest vaccine diplomacy from the G7.

Brian Lehrer: The announcement which sounded like always hearts and flowers, and everybody was on the same page, you're saying, read between the lines, and there were things they didn't say that indicate that it's timid.

Emily Rauhala: That was certainly my read and I think that it's great that they got together. It's great that they're talking, it's great that there's going to be a billion doses, but this very much feels like the start of, frankly, years of talks on these issues.

Brian Lehrer: All right. S. Mitra Kalita, as I said in the intro, New York City has reached what officials are calling functional immunity. What does that mean technically, and practically for New Yorkers, and some of our listeners will know you and I have been talking for week after week after week on this show about people who are harder to reach. I'm afraid when we talk about functional immunity like a big overarching figure, X percent of New Yorkers are now immunized. It leaves out or risks leaving out those who have been harder to reach.

S. Mitra Kalita: That's right. I would say that one way we can look at functional immunity, I'll give you a personal anecdote. In a 24-hour period, last week, I flew on a plane, I rode the subway, and I watched In The Heights in a movie theater. That for me was a sign of my actions literally embracing the functional immunity that you speak of, that we're starting to do these things.

The challenge is that for the low percentage of New Yorkers who are still not vaccinated, they're largely interacting in spaces where they are with others who are not vaccinated. It might be restaurant workers or folks in a church, or they're living many to an apartment as we've talked about the denser housing conditions among some of these workers. One other piece that relates to the global dimension is that we are increasingly seeing those who are testing positive for COVID, that this is very much a Black and brown virus at this point.

In Washington, DC I believe 80% of those testing positive are African-American. In New York City, there's a high Latino population. These are the ways that when you look at who's not vaccinated, we need to be more targeted but certainly, we can't act as though because New York has functionally achieved herd immunity that somebody coming in from either overseas or from another city, state, or part of our lives is not a threat to those who are still not vaccinated.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take a vaccine travel phone call for you, Judith in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Judith.

Judith: Sorry. Do you mind holding one moment? Hi, good morning. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: You put the other people on hold and you got on the air with us. Thank you for making that choice. Hi Judith, we can hear it.

Judith: [laughs] Oh, wow. Thank you so much for taking my call. This was wonderful. I love your show.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you.

Judith: It's a quick question. I have a friend who's flying in from Tanzania next month and she doesn't have a permanent US address, but she can certainly use mine. Does she have access to the vaccine or how does that work? I'll take my answer offline.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Judith.

Judith: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: You can go back to your other phone call now. Mitra.

S. Mitra Kalita: Yes. Mayor, Bill de Blasio has certainly encouraged tourists to New York City. They can get their vaccine. I believe he set up some locations for that. Then in the practicality of it, from what Epicenter has been seeing for the last few weeks, folks from overseas who are coming in to get their vaccines are not being asked for a proof of US ID or residency. We have a, I don't want to call it a problem given the conversation we're having about the desire for vaccines globally, but we have an oversupply in the US right now.

You go to a pop-up clinic at the end of the day, chances are, they're going to have leftover doses. You go to a doctor's offices, they're saying the same thing. I have yet to see anyone from overseas being denied, if anything, we're increasingly getting requests from countries like Jamaica, Colombia, Mexico, the relatives of people in New York who are trying to get their vaccines this summer, and to the mayor's point also take in some tourism while they're here.

Brian Lehrer: What a change from the beginning of the pandemic.

S. Mitra Kalita: Oh my goodness, yes.

Brian Lehrer: Do you remember when, talk about In The Heights, the Washington Heights armory was getting dinged when they opened as an early Pfizer providing vaccine site because people were coming from New Jersey and those shots should be reserved for people from the city and from the neighborhood. Then there was a ban on people coming from as far away as New Jersey, right across the George Washington Bridge to get their shots in Washington Heights, and now the mayor is saying, come from Tanzania, come from wherever and get your shots in New York. By the way, go to the movies while you're here.

S. Mitra Kalita: That's totally by design though, because the same programs that Emily was just talking about when the vaccine rollout began last year, it was actually high-income countries that were able to almost over order their doses. Again, we in the US are very privileged to have this situation of oversupply, and so giving a few doses to tourists and people's relatives, nobody that I've talked to seems put out by that at all.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another travel and vaccination story, Nicole in Park Slope. "In this case, stuck here," she says. Hi Nicole, you're on WNYC.

Nicole: Hi. I've been living in the United States for 21 years and I renew my visa every five years. I submitted my application to be renewed at the American consulate a while ago, that was actually 10 months ago, quite within the legal time limits, but with the COVID under restrictions and everything, it's been 10 months and I still don't have an appointment.

I lost my job as a result because my work permit ended and I have elderly parents, 82, that I haven't seen in two years. If I leave the country, I can't get back in and yet I have my parents and I'm still waiting for-- so there's governmental delays and issues because of the COVID, and also I'm stuck. If I leave and I have elderly parents and God forbid, if anything happens to them, then I can't get back to my life that I have built over here, so I'm stuck. [laughs] COVID [unintelligible 00:16:22] COVID.

Brian Lehrer: Mitra, can you help Nicole at all?

S. Mitra Kalita: I can try to help, but unfortunately I'm hearing this situation increasingly from folks both in the US as she's outlining but also people who, specifically in India over the last few months as it's had its COVID surge, people who went to go take care of relatives, or unfortunately if their parents had passed away and they're unable to get back into this country.

I do think over the next few weeks, we will start to see some more diplomacy around this. The US, for example, has made an exception for foreign students who need to get back into the US. For what the caller, Nicole, was talking about, we're seeing this increasingly partly just because offices for consulates and so forth have been closed and because we're in a global crisis, this has not been top of mind, but as we have to ready to go back to whatever normal looks like in the fall.

I do think governments are starting to take this more seriously. I'm happy to try to help. You can leave your number with the producers and we'll see what we can do, but like I said, we are hearing this from literally dozens of folks at this point.

Brian Lehrer: That's a very generous offer for Nicole. Nicole, if you want to, you can leave your contact information and Mitra will get in touch with you or someone from her organization, which is Epicenter NYC. As we have a few minutes left with S. Mitra Kalita and with Emily Rauhala, Foreign Affairs Reporter at The Washington Post. Emily, you write that Biden's surprised decision to support a proposal to waive patent protections for coronavirus vaccines has faced strong pushback from the European Union. What's the latest in COVID vaccine patent negotiations?

Emily Rauhala: Well, the latest is that they're still talking and it looks like it's going to take a while. The big thing I think is important to understand on this issue and on so many issues related to vaccine diplomacy and the crisis in general is that we're really looking at medium to long-term timelines here. The patent issue is not expected to be decided until December, but there's really so much that could happen between now and then in terms of vaccine diplomacy outside of this issue. I think the question is how much of that will get done?

Brian Lehrer: We heard at the beginning that Biden's offering to buy 500 million doses out of the US treasury and send them to poorer countries that have vaccine shortages. Now with the G7 meeting in Europe over the weekend, European allies are going to chip in for another 500 million, so that's a total of a billion doses, but the UN and the World Health Organization say it's really 11 billion that are needed.

How does that 1 billion number, Emily, get set? Why is it only 1 billion? I know anytime we say billion, it sounds like a lot of something, but why is it only 1 billion? What would the barriers be to getting closer to the 11 billion? Would it be financially ruinous for some countries?

Emily Rauhala: The last caller had me reflecting on this, like, "Why is this happening this way?" There's a sense as I track this vaccine diplomacy and I track the coronavirus response in so many places that governments are really making this up as they go along. The overarching lesson of the G7 in terms of vaccine diplomacy is that countries who feel like their domestic situation is under control. In many cases these are countries who have effectively, hoarded vaccines, taken more than their fair share, secured them in the short term are feeling more generous than those who have not.

Let me look ahead, I think the question is, on the timelines when will countries like Canada, when will the European field like their domestic situation is under control and therefore be willing to step in for the vaccine diplomacy that is really quite needed. As you said, 11 billion is a far cry from 1 billion. I think that the optimistic read would be, maybe this will pick up in the second half of the year, but for the countries who need those doses now that's really a cold comfort.

Brian Lehrer: Mitra, a last thought on this as we head out?

S. Mitra Kalita: I think exactly on the point of making it up as we go along, that my hope is that we're centering the preservation of human life. I think there are three tracks that are needed. One is what Biden has just done, which is to give extra doses overseas and get them there as quickly as possible. The second is for COVAX, the World Health Organizations, a group where people can donate directly and help them in those efforts, that's much more of a global effort. The third is, are we equipping countries to take agency of their own populations and make the vaccines themselves.

This transfer of patent technology is really complicated, but just from the desperation we're hearing from folks overseas, trying to get to the US. This feels like a problem that will be with us for months, maybe years to come. Until we've solved for countries being able to also take care of their own people and not depend on extra doses from the US or from Europe, we really haven't solved for the global nature of this crisis. I do think we are still in crisis and I think we need to really attack this issue on multiple tracks right now.

Brian Lehrer: S. Mitra Kalita is CEO and publisher of Epicenter NYC. Emily Rauhala is Foreign Affairs reporter for The Washington Post. Thank you both so much.

Emily Rauhala: Thanks, Brian.

S. Mitra Kalita: Thank you.

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