Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we talk about the use of gender pronouns in school and elsewhere. For some of you for whom this is new, maybe you've just recently started seeing gender pronouns becoming used, like at work on everything from email signatures to Zoom IDs and LinkedIn profiles. If you've recently introduced your gender pronouns to your professional life, give us a call whether it's he/him, she/her, or they/them.
Just one other side note, we're talking about this in English, of course, but one of my producers who's familiar with multiple languages pointed out that it's maybe more difficult in French, Italian, Hindi, Hebrew, Arabic, which rely heavily on pronouns that are binary. If anybody wants to weigh in on how you're teaching languages, where even the word they is gendered, like in French, the word il, I-L-S plural, refers to a group of either all men or a mixed-gender group whereas the word elle, plural E-L-L-E-S, in French refers to a group of all females. How do you adapt there? French speakers call in or anyone else. Andy in Middletown, you're on WNYC. Hi, Andy.
Andy: Hi.
Brian Lehrer: I should say that's Middletown, New Jersey because we also have Middletown, New York, and Middletown, Connecticut in our listening area. Hi, Andy. You're a high school teacher, I see.
Andy: Yes, I am. We have a new policy that when we meet the students on the first day and do icebreakers, the students can tell the class and the teacher their pronouns. A lot of the students are non-binary or trans, and they really appreciate that. I've also found that if a student or a teacher misgenders a student if they correct it and willing to correct that, the students really appreciate it. They don't really get angry or anything like that.
Brian Lehrer: Andy, thank you very much. Chris in Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi Chris.
Chris: Hey, there. I too I'm a high school English teacher and I have two experiences in this front. The first one is that, like the previous caller, in the beginning of the school year this year I introduced my own pronouns, he/him to my class and invited my students to do the same. I've been teaching well over a decade, but several students came up to me afterward and said privately, "Thank you for doing that and normalizing it." Even though I've had LGBTQ students over the years, I hadn't done that in the past. I saw instantly the difference it made.
Then from another perspective a more rhetorical one, I being a high school English teacher, I've worked with students on propositions for years. I know that I used to teach my students, oh, if you're referring to a person his or her this or his or her that. I made the rhetorical shift later are on just out of cognizant's of the way that the world changes. Finally, as a person who's recently picked up French, I've actually had to parse my French-speaking friends about that, about the mixed-gender il versus elle. I've gotten different responses from three of them. I suffice to say I haven't tried it out yet.
Brian Lehrer: I question sometimes why we use singular pronouns at all anymore. If we're talking about a person other than ourselves, why don't we just refer to everyone as they, and then it doesn't exclude anybody? Maybe people, especially if they are identified as they/them, maybe they want that to be distinct from she/her, he/him. Do you have an opinion about that as an English teacher?
Chris: Yes. Any English teacher who is teaching anyone that language is static I would submit is just wrong. I think the natural evolution of language always, hopefully, is that the community that uses the language does so in a way that does the people who speak at justice. We don't have [unintelligible 00:05:00] or some regulatory organization that dictates English in the United States or elsewhere, to my knowledge at least. I think that if it helps people to feel more at home, the least we could do as human beings is to refer to people the way that they want to be referred-
Brian Lehrer: English.
Chris: -be that by pronoun or name or what have you. I don't know. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with just using they. If someone presumes more specificity within that, that's sure, fine.
Brian Lehrer: Then that's up to them. Chris, thank you so much. I really appreciate your call. Caitlin in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Caitlin.
Caitlin: Hi, Brian. I actually I'm referring to myself as she/they meaning she/her/they. This came from Zoom actually. It was being on Zoom meetings and being able to almost experimentally type in pronouns. I just was seeing she/her and was like, "I don't actually have any attachment to she, but I don't necessarily need people to not call me she." It came out as a lesbian and then realized, "Oh, maybe I'm bi or pan." As I'm going through that journey, this gender journey is also-- It was interesting to be able to use, seeing my name and then the pronouns as an experiment to see how it felt. That's where I'm at with that.
Brian Lehrer: Sexual orientation bi or lesbian, for example, is different than what we're talking about on the gender spectrum. Right?
Caitlin: Correct.
Brian Lehrer: What does she/they actually communicate?
Caitlin: She/they to me just communicates that I'm an androgynous person. I'm not necessarily attached to femininity as the primary way of seeing me in the world. It's almost like I am woman and beyond. [chuckles]
Brian Lehrer: Woman and beyond, which is why you don't just use they/them?
Caitlin: Correct because I'm not trans, at least right now, but I'm not also just cis.
Brian Lehrer: Caitlin, thank you so much. Mel in Park Slope, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mel.
Mel: Hey, Brian. Long-time listener, first-time caller. I'm calling in because I identify as non-binary/trans masculine. I recently within the past year or so have come out using they/them pronouns in professional capacity and beyond just close friends. One thing I've found really helpful just in terms of getting people to use the right pronouns and making other people feel welcome is to incorporate pronouns with your introduction. Like whether you're in a group meeting new people and you say, "Hi, I'm Mel. I use they/them pronouns." In the case of a job I recently started, I was given our email signature template and there was actually pronouns listed right below my name.
That actually gave me a great segue to speak with my manager and be like, "Hey, I set up my email signature. By the way, just wanted to flag I use they/them pronouns. I know that might not necessarily be something you're used to, but I appreciate any effort to use them." I've been in this job for a month now and I find that people really make an effort to use the right pronouns. I don't feel uncomfortable about it because sometimes that's something that me and other non-binary people have felt like using a pronoun that's not conventionally used, at least it's becoming more and more used recently.
Brian Lehrer: Do you think that it helps non-binary people in general for people who are binary to go by her/her and he/him and use that label for themselves too?
Mel: I wouldn't consider she/her or he/him a label. It's just the pronouns that we choose to use. I think of it similar to a name. I want people to call me Mel because that's my name. I want people to use they/them because those are my pronouns. Sure, when cis people enter a room and they're the ones who are like, "Hi, I'm Maggie, I use she/her pronouns that creates a space where it feels normal and normalizes introducing pronouns and making that part of the conversation.
Brian Lehrer: That's an interesting distinction between a label and a pronoun so I take that. If somebody who's a she/her or a he/him starts a group conversation with that ID, does it risk forcing people out who may be gender non-binary before they want to declare?
Mel: That's a great question. I'm actually part of a couple of different support groups for trans and non-binary people. That concern has come out where people feel put on the spot. I don't really know a great solution for that. The way I see it is I think pronouns can be transient. There are people who are genderqueer, there are people who come out later or there are people who, "My pronouns for the day are she/her," and maybe another day, another year they might be something else. That's something I think that helps me at least in terms of that.
Brian Lehrer: Mel, thank you so much for your call. Really appreciate it. George on Montclair, you're on WNYC. Hi, George.
George: Oh, I'm your perfect candidate for this discussion. [chuckles] I'm a trans, been trans my whole life, and been on hormones for a couple of the last 10 years. I'm a 6′3" male with size 13 shoes. I used to do a lot of drag, but that was in venues where it was except and everyone is the same. I'm never going to transition. I'm a really perfect non-binary person. I'm the exact non-binary person. I have to say it is so nice that the world is understanding that such people exist. I just found a proper gender affirmation practice. They ask it. When you come in, they say, "What pronouns do you like? What name do you go by?" They're so sensitive and aware.
Brian Lehrer: That's good. As an English teacher, and we just have 15 seconds left, I don't know if you teach high school or what, but that for younger people, it's just ordinary by now or not yet?
George: I've only had one student last year who identified as a they. I really never had an opportunity to use it. If I ever needed to, I always said the person's name.
Brian Lehrer: George, thank you very much. Thanks to all of you who called on this segment. Hopefully, it will continue the progression of respecting everybody and also avoiding gender misidentification. The Brian Lehrer Show is produced by Lisa Allison, MaryEileen Croke, Zoe Azulay, and Carl Boisrond. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen works on our daily podcast, Juliana Fonda and Liora Noam-Kravitz at the audio controls.
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