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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, again, everyone. Coming up around the bottom of the hour, we're going to conclude our oral history call-in series that we've been doing on the most defining news event of your lifetime. We've been taking this decade by decade starting last week with callers in your 90s, 80s, and 70s. We've continued this week with people in your 60s, 50s, 40s, and 30s. This final call-in today coming up in a little bit is going to be for you if you're in your 20s or younger.

Those of you listening right now who are, get ready to call in with the most defining news event of your lifetime so far, and how it has shaped who you are, personally or politically, or any other way. That's coming up in a little bit if you're in your 20s or younger, the most defining news event of your lifetime so far, and how it has shaped who you are in any way. For a little extra fun, as we've been doing in all the segments, you can mention the most memorable concert you've seen so far in your life. Coming up in a little bit if you're in your 20s or younger, and yes, we do have some younger callers than that once in a while. This will be for you.

Now, a former security minister of Mexico is going on trial in New York next week and could face life in prison for the way he allegedly empowered the Sinaloa drug cartel led by the infamous El Chapo by taking bribes from the cartel. There's a deeper story to tell too about this case beyond the actions of one accused government official gone bad. Now comes a five-episode podcast series about government corruption, the war on drugs, as told through this case, trial beginning next week. This will be in the news here in New York. This podcast made by our next two guests. Here's the 40-second teaser.

Peniley Ramírez: This story revolves around this guy called Genaro García Luna. This is not just a story about a man. It's about something bigger, the war on drugs and the many individuals and businesses that profit from it legally and illegally. This is a word that the US and Mexico claim they have been fighting together for decades.

Maria Hinojosa: It's also about the public funds that unknown to US taxpayers have funded billion-dollar industries that operate around the war on drugs.

Brian Lehrer: Genaro García Luna is not well known here in the US. Most of you probably just heard that name for the first time, but he might have had an important role in El Chapo's Sinaloa Cartel, and the US might have known about it. Now he's awaiting trial, as I said at the top, not too far away from wherever you may be. That will be in Brooklyn. Maria Hinojosa and Peniley Ramírez are the co-hosts of USA vs. García Luna, the podcast, and are co-executive producers at Futuro Media. Maria, as many of you know, is also the founder and president of Futuro Media and host of Latino USA here on WNYC.

Peniley is an Emmy Award-winning investigative journalist. They're here to tell us about the new podcast, who García Luna is, and why we should pay attention to this trial, as well as these deeper questions. Trial begins next week. Maria, always great to have you on the show. Peniley, welcome to WNYC.

Maria Hinojosa: Great to be with you, Brian.

Peniley Ramírez: Thank you so much for the invitation.

Brian Lehrer: For our listeners who haven't heard any of the podcast series yet, I know it just launched, can you tell us who Genaro García Luna is? Maria, you want to start?

Maria Hinojosa: Yes. Listen, Brian, as you know, and hello, WNYC listeners. Much love from San Juan where I am right now. As you know, I actually have not covered a lot of the narco story, the Chapo story. I just felt as a journalist that there was enough work that had been done there, and I didn't need to be telling that story. Then it turns out I end up watching of all things, Brian, the Mexican Latin American version of the Chapo drama on Netflix. There's a character there in that drama. It's based on a character, and I become fascinated with that character. Turns out that that character is based on the life of Genaro García Luna.

Then fast forward, I end up hiring Peniley Ramírez who is a brilliant Emmy award-winning investigative journalist, Cuban and also Mexican. It turns out that Penny has been investigating García Luna in Mexico for over a decade. Then it turns out, he's right here in New York City. He's at Brooklyn Federal Detention Facility. Still, it's like, "Well, okay."

You're right, Brian. What we're trying to do in this podcast is one, change the way in which we talk about these issues, actually make it-- I know it's very serious, but we actually make it very entertaining.

Also, it's a very common narrative to just say, "Oh, my God. Mexican corrupt officials. Oh, Mexican corrupt officials." As we say, he was working for the DEA as well. He was top-line. He had a relationship with the United States. In fact, it's one of the things that Genaro García Luna is trying to use in his defense is to say, "Look, I was the right-hand guy of the United States. How can I be corrupt if the United States loved me so much?"

That's the bigger issue, which is what is the United States' role in all of this? What does it really mean this "war on drugs"? What does it really mean? What's our role? You can't just throw stones at Mexico. The United States is part of this story intimately, and my gosh, it couldn't be more intimate than this man being held at the Brooklyn Federal Detention Facility and going into Brooklyn Federal Court Tuesday morning.

Brian Lehrer: Peniley, Maria just said that you've been investigating García Luna for nearly a decade. How did you get started and what has kept your interest for so many years?

Peniley Ramírez: As Maria said, I was born in Cuba, but I have been based in Mexico. Now I live in New York, but I was based in Mexico since I was a teenager. I was covering similar issues when something caught my attention. We tell the story in the podcast. I ended up looking information about this guy for no journalistic reason that you will discover in the podcast. I ended up investigating him because I was getting expertise in corruption from the Mexican government.

Then I started finding more information about something that was related to Mexico, but also to the United States. This was how this person that was a public servant in Mexico became a millionaire while he was in charge. Then he moved to Miami to a $3 million house in Miami with a pool, an access to a marina, and a luxury lifestyle that didn't match to a person that was working for the government. I started with that. Then I spent, as Maria said, more than a decade investigating him. I published a book about him in 2020. Now we have been digging in his fortune, his wealth, but also in the alleged activities that he did for the Sinaloa Cartel.

I continue investigating him because I was for too many years an investigative reporter with Univision, so I also covered El Chapo's trial. As Maria also said, these two trials are related. The García Luna trial is the biggest trial so far derived from El Chapo's trial. They are going to have the same judge overseeing this trial, Brian Cogan, who is the same person that also oversaw El Chapo's trial in 2018. A lot of signs that you can tell that this is a high-profile trial. You can see that much attention so far in the US media.

It is not just because this person was so close to the DEA, and to the CIA, and to the FBI, from the Mexican government, it's also because it is directly related to a lot of exhibits that we knew in El Chapo's trial about a lot of drugs. More than 50 tons of cocaine that were smuggled from Mexico to the United States, but more specifically to Chicago and mostly to New York. This is a case that has a lot of information regarding to New York. We will see more during the trial that starts next week, but so far, we have been digging a lot. We found this way to explain to a broader audience in the United States, why this trial matters to them, and why this is not just a story about Mexican politics.

Brian Lehrer: Let me play another clip from your podcast series to that point because it does explore García Luna's corruption in both Mexico and through his work with American government officials. Here's another clip from the first episode of your five-part podcast series. Listeners, you will hear Peniley's voice first, Maria's voice second.

Peniley Ramírez: He was tweeting and tweeting photos with Hillary Clinton with the DEA recognition and CIA. All these words of you are our friend, you are amazing with us.

Maria Hinojosa: What you're saying, Peniley is that this guy was like, "Larida, I'm going to be okay because I know all these people and they're going to take care of me." Then all of a sudden, boom.

Speaker 1: This is Genaro García Luna. During his time as a high-profile leader, he's accused of accepting millions of dollars in bribes all in exchange for providing protection to drug kingpin Joaquín El Chapo Guzmán and his cartel.

Maria Hinojosa: He was arrested on December 9th of 2019.

Brian Lehrer: There's a little clip from the first episode of the podcast series. Maria, how much do you expect the deeper story to be told through any of the evidence or testimony at the trial? Not just his corruption, not just his role in enabling the Sinaloa drug cartel and El Chapo, but his work with US government officials. That clip mentions tweeting photos with Hillary Clinton, things like that. Even the story of the War on drugs in addition to the toll that drugs themselves take.

Maria Hinojosa: That's why we're so excited. Frankly, Peniley and I are so excited about what's going to start unfolding on Tuesday because we want to know, will the United States, will the prosecutors actually go there because it means having to look at that egg on your face. How is it possible, and we ask this question in the podcast, Brian, how is it possible that the highest level of the most intelligent officials of the DEA, the CIA, the FBI, that none of them could smell that García Luna was a little problematic. There were hints. It was right there in front of them. [chuckles]

That's in large part, Brian, why I wanted to do this podcast. After winning the Pulitzer this year and forming my own investigative unit, Peniley and I are the only Latinas that are running a national investigative unit in English that is focusing primarily on issues around Latinos, Latinas, and other non-white folks in the United States. I realize I have a responsibility as a journalist to take on these larger issues and institutions, whether it is the DEA, whether it is the border Patrol, whether it is a narrative that says, just this morning I wake up and it's like, oh my God, there is a surge of immigrants at the border.

It's uncontrolled yet again. It's like, no, it's not. I feel like right now in my tenure, and that's why I love speaking with you, Brian because you and I have been in this for a long time that there comes a point where you're like, "I have to demand more accountability and I have to try to change the narrative." Now, that's what we're doing at USA vs. García Luna. That's why we did the podcast, was to in fact really take this other narrative forward, put it into listeners so that they can begin to have a critical view of this.

Will the prosecutors do this? I don't know. That's the $65 million question. We're going to be in court every day that there is a trial. We're already getting prepared. I'm going to announce it, Peniley. We have gotten so much attention for this podcast both in English and in Spanish and we have people who want Spanish. We are now going to be doing our updates on the trial both in English and in Spanish, which is a feed into itself. I think that's why we have the listeners is because they are understanding this is a much bigger story.

By the way, we do do this podcast. It's very honest we do. I said, "We need a bottle of tequila." I'm not a drinker, Brian, by the way. I'm not a drinker, but I was like, that's why we call it true crime meets telenovela because you cannot make this stuff up about Genaro García Luna. That's why I was like, "Yes, okay, we're going to have a little tequila." Some people are like, "Why are you doing this?" Then they listen and they're like, "Oh my God. We completely understand. We may need to have a little drink too."

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we have just a few minutes if anybody wants to pipe up with a question or a thought for Maria Hinojosa and Peniley Ramírez now co-hosts of the podcast USA vs. García Luna, in advance of the trial which starts in Brooklyn on Tuesday, USA vs. Genaro García Luna. Anybody have any personal experience with Sinaloa Cartel or the war on drugs or a deeper question that you hope either the podcast or the trial itself will get to? We just have time for a couple of phone calls.

If anybody wants to call in right away, you'll get on right away. Don't know if anybody will. 212-433 WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. Peniley do you want to expand on that concept that Maria just mentioned, the true crime meets telenovela in your podcast series?

Peniley Ramírez: Yes. For me, Brian, I have been all my career an investigative journalists, we always do investigative journalism in a pretty serious way. We're always too serious about the work that we do. This podcast is too serious because it involves a lot of pretty serious issues. Of course, if you're talking about the war on drugs and the Sinaloa Cartel and the government and the many victims in both sides of the border of this war in the US because of the health crisis of overdoses that you have, and because of the violence in Mexico, it is a pretty serious issue.

At the same time, if you dig into this character, you will find too many details that are crazy actually. We decided that in the podcast we will combine all of that. That's why we have a bottle of tequila. We say from the beginning that my accent is not perfect because I'm Cuban. I was living in Mexico, so I'm new in the United States, and Maria sometimes makes fun of my English or the way I pronounce--

Maria Hinojosa: Joshing. Just joshing. Love it. [chuckles]

Peniley Ramírez: Now that we're recording in Spanish, I take my revenge because I can come back and make fun of some things that Maria says in Spanish. We made it a conversation and Maria plays the role of the audience because there are too many details. It is a complicated story. We decided to do it in another way, more like two friends chatting which is natural because Maria and I, we have becoming really good friends and this is the tune of our real conversation. We think that the true crime podcasts needed also this fresh view and new way to tell this story.

It's amazing because most of the people that have been listening to the podcast so far, they have been writing to us and telling, "Oh, I learned a lot, this story has a lot of details." At the same time, I had fun. I was entertained while I was listening. If you go to the profile of this person, there are a lot of details that meets with this famous gender from Mexico, mainly called the telenovelas which is you have the good guys and you have the bad guys. You have these love situations when somebody wants to be with somebody else, but this person wants to be with another person.

We have a lot of that in the real story of Genaro García Luna. Also, the crazy things that they were doing with the money that the US taxpayers and the US government was sending to Mexico to help Mexico to fight the drug smuggling too.

Maria Hinojosa: Let me just tell you a quick thing.

Peniley Ramírez: Oh, Maria. Yes.

Maria Hinojosa: When it's like telenovela. This guy, Genaro García Luna was a very serious cop. He was running the entire prison system, all the police, all the federal, you know what his obsession was, Brian? What his actual obsession in the basement, his secret basement, he loves disco music and Donna Summer. When Peniley says what he did with the money, the US taxpayer money that was sent down to Mexico to fight this so-called war on drugs, he takes that money and he makes a TV show like his own version of CSI. He wanted to be a CSI character.

He was fascinated by Herbert Hoover. He wanted to be the Mexican Hoover. Which is why we said this character, yes, it's reporting, it's deep investigations that Peniley has done, but it's like [foreign language].

Brian Lehrer: I don't even speak Spanish and I understood that.

[laughter]

Maria Hinojosa: You know Brian, that in our work, and Penny, of course, we see very sad things. We see the losers of this war, the people who are serving time in prison, who should not be. People have died of overdoses, et cetera, in our own city tied to the alleged work that this man was doing. We either cry and we do, but we can also laugh, which is why we did. I said it has to be entertaining. We have to have fun. I'm sorry, Penny, when you say certain words, I'm going to catch you on it and now of course, since we're doing Spanish, she's getting her revenge.

Peniley Ramírez: [chuckles] Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: Let me get a couple of callers in real quick. Marsha in Brooklyn has been listening to the podcast and has a question for you. Marsha, you're on WNYC, right to the point, Hi.

Marsha: Thank you. Hi. I'm just curious how you are with your own personal safety, given the depth and breadth of what I've come to call legalized criminality and outright criminality around this issue.

Maria Hinojosa: I like that.

Marsha: Also many others, even in New York, but--

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Peniley, can I give that to you as the investigative journalist? Do you ever feel you're putting yourself at risk?

Peniley Ramírez: Yes. Of course, as you may know, Mexico is the most dangerous place in the world to be a journalist more even than Ukraine right now. I took a risk for too many years investigating this story down there, and we address this in the podcast. We also talk about the personal experience that I have had in all these years. I developed PTSD, we talk about it in the podcast. We also talk something about Maria, the PTSD that Maria developed after covering the 911, because this story, it's also related to the 911.

I don't want to spoil the whole podcast, but sometimes we get really personal. Right now we are taking a lot of new ways to make sure that we are also safe because as Maria said, we want to cover the trial and we are going to be there. That means that I will be meeting him face to face again and some of the people that will be attending the trial so we will see. Thank you for asking that.

Brian Lehrer: One more call, Felipe in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hey Felipe, we just have a half a minute or so, right to the point.

Felipe: It'll be fast, especially since this is the marriage of my two favorite shows. Yours, Brian and Maria's. The quick question I wanted to ask is how are they dealing with the podcast with the lack of gun control in the United States and how it really is the undergrowth of both the drugs and the violence in Mexico and also the help in the drug flow that comes into the US because gun control here it's just lacking and so on that basis, it gives these guys all the power that they need.

Brian Lehrer: Felipe, thank you very much, and thanks for the nice words. Maria, do you touch on how we export guns to Mexico as they export drugs to here?

Maria Hinojosa: No, we don't get into that issue but we believe, and as we have said with the story, this is just the beginning of the story about Genaro García Luna and of this deeper relationship. We will continue to reframe and press for accountability both in the United States as well as in Mexico. We really appreciate you, Brian, sharing your listeners with us because we know how serious of a journalist you are. Even though we have fun in this podcast, we laugh, we have tequila, et cetera, we understand how serious this is. We are actually saying, "Reframe this narrative."

Reframe and question the huge structure around this "war on drugs." What in fact has it delivered? Hello, DEA, we are looking at you. We are looking at your internal corruption because these are our tax dollars and we want this to be better. We want no more lies to be lost in the violence or from overdose. Thank you, Brian, for sharing your space with Peniley and I. We hope to see you on USA vs. García Luna listeners.

Brian Lehrer: The trial USA ves. García Luna begins Tuesday in Brooklyn. The podcast, USA vs. García Luna from Maria Hinojosa and Peniley Ramírez is available now wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you both so much. Fascinating.

Maria Hinojosa: Thank you, Brian.

Peniley Ramírez: Thank you so much.

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