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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Yesterday, the Biden administration announced that starting in November, it will end certain travel restrictions put in place at the beginning of the pandemic and allow people from places like India, the UK, Ireland, and the European Union to travel to the United States, as long as they're fully vaccinated and have had a negative COVID test in the previous three days.

At the same time, there are new restrictions on unvaccinated Americans returning to the US. Did you see that Dr. Fauci now seems to like the idea of requiring vaccines for domestic air travel? Let's talk about these changes and proposals and what they mean for airlines, tourism, and families and friends separated by the pandemic. I'm joined by POLITICO's aviation reporter, Oriana Pawlyk. Hi, Oriana. Welcome to WNYC.

Oriana Pawlyk: Hi, thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Give us more detail as a matter of background to start out about who is currently restricted from coming in?

Oriana Pawlyk: They've been talking about the EU and UK have been restricted for over 18 months since the pandemic began. That brought a point of tension for some folks just because they wanted to say whether or not vaccinated UK members and EU members could come to the United States. Unfortunately, as they ramped up their vaccination rates, they were still unable to come to the US. Again, that was a point of tension for the Biden administration as they took this on.

That was the big opening point yesterday with the announcement was those countries being able to be accepted foreign nationals traveling to the US. That is the big news here for people who have been waiting, who have been separated from families, or people who have still been abroad in Europe trying to wait out the pandemic, seeing how it ebbs and flows. Now there are still pretty strict protocols for them to come over.

Again, this also applies to other countries. It's not just the EU and the UK, but, of course, we have partnerships and relations with those two entities. That is why everyone was pretty excited to hear that news yesterday regarding the travel ban lifting from the administration.

Brian Lehrer: We should say that international students and immediate family members of citizens and green cardholders have not been subject to these restrictions. Is this mainly aimed at tourists and business travelers now?

Oriana Pawlyk: Yes. That was pretty much the scope of that. Again, I also said some family members who have been still waiting out to see whether or not the pandemic would take a turn or how other countries abroad were dealing with a pandemic and their restrictions being a little easier versus some here in the United States, but yes, there have been-- Those easements are mostly for tourism, which as I'm sure most people know, has really suffered during the pandemic for the United States on lockdowns and things like this in place have really hampered that and economies of scale there.

With tourism back once the administration flushes out what these stipulations really mean in early November, that's the early target date for what foreign travelers will need to know before they come over, they will be able to come back to the US and see the good old America again. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: I'm in New York, which, of course, has such a large tourism industry in normal times. Mayor de Blasio here has started to say, "Tourists, come back, come back, come back. We're open, we're safe if you just follow the rules." The tourists that they could get for the most part are domestic tourists. I know they want those foreign tourists back. Listeners, does the lifting of these travel restrictions affect you?

Does it affect your loved ones or do you depend on international tourism for your business or anyone who's affected by these pandemic travel rules or has a question about the coming changes tweet @BrianLehrer will watch your questions come in on Twitter or call 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 for POLITICO's aviation reporter, Oriana Pawlyk. Oriana, those restrictions all date from the first part of 2020, obviously, starting with President Trump's ban on travelers from China at the end of January that year, but US travelers have been able to visit Europe, for example, for a while now. Why did President Biden keep these in place so long while the restrictions were eased the other way?

Oriana Pawlyk: Great question. A lot of scrutiny has been paid attention to this question. Yesterday, we heard from the White House COVID-19 response team's chief, Jeff Zients. He said really the easement comes from following the science and seeing how vaccination rates have come up from countries in Europe, which that is what caused them to say, "You know what? It's time to open up travel again."

They felt comfortable enough where vaccination rates were high enough from some countries that they would welcome for nationals back in the United States. That is a great question because back in July, and even back in April of this year, the administration wasn't super keen in opening up travel just yet. To add to that, not all travel has opened up even for our closest neighbors because the land border with Canada and Mexico will still remain closed.

They have put up a waiver that they have been reimplementing month by month with the land border with Canada and Mexico time and time again. A lot of folks are wondering why that is. We are allowing for air travel to happen between Canada and Mexico in the United States, but we are not allowing for people to cross over into the border in their own personal vehicles, which most people would say, maybe that's a little bit safer.

Especially if you are required to have a proof of vaccination and negative COVID test and some of the stipulations that were announced yesterday for travel in general. That is closed off still. The administration is still working through these processes. We've heard that from the White House multiple times. They're trying to figure out as best way to how they're going to essentially track folks.

We also heard yesterday that foreign nationals who do come to the states, have to provide certain information as a "public surveillance system," where they will share their cell phone numbers and their emails with state and local governments that they wish to travel so that way, in any event, somebody does come down and is sick, the government can contact them and tell them that they have been exposed to COVID-19 or other types of pathogens.

That's just the first step of what the CDC has outlined with the administration and with the airlines. The one thing that the airlines have down pat, for the most part, is just the exchange of information. They have pretty good ways so far, it's been a year into this, of course, and the aviation industry really wants to ramp up travel where they can. A lot of airlines, major airlines have created their own types of web portals or apps where you can upload your proof of vaccination.

Then that gets cross-checked, sometimes not always, but it depends on the airline, with state and local governments. They're going to check to see, for example, I would upload my proof of vaccination card to say the United app. Then they would make sure to link back to the database of the state of Virginia to see if it's legitimate. That's something that the airlines have created, but the administration hasn't made it a standard.

They haven't said everybody has to do this. It's right now, just for personal use and for, again, those people who are going to be traveling internationally because of stipulations and mandates that are in place in other countries abroad. Now, we have just proposed the stipulations and mandates that we have for foreign nationals coming here, so they will have to follow similar protocols.

Brian Lehrer: Really interesting. Let me get some clarification from you on the rules for these international travelers coming from places like India and the UK and Ireland and the mainland European Union. I think, by the way, that's a slight correction, a correction of emphasis. In the introduction, I said Ireland and the European Union. Ireland is part of the European Union. I know, but it's Ireland and the mainland European Union countries as well. If the rules are negative to COVID test in the previous three days and fully vaccinated, it's both.

Oriana Pawlyk: It's both.

Brian Lehrer: Vaccination isn't enough.

Oriana Pawlyk: Right, it's both. That actually comes on the heels of a study that I believe one of the airlines, I think it was Delta Air Lines did in the last month or so that showed that a proof of negative COVID test within 72 hours of travel actually slowed the spread of the Coronavirus. I don't know if that actually played into the administration's decision on why they also tacked that on with the stipulations, but just having that negative test it's giving that extra safety measure that I think most folks want before they get on an airplane.

Yes, it is both. It is the proof of vaccination that you have to upload to whatever the portal the airline requires, as well as bringing that negative test with you to show that you have indeed texted negative 72 hours prior to boarding an aircraft.

Brian Lehrer: Foreign travelers might have gotten vaccines like AstraZeneca or Sinopharm that haven't gotten approval, or even been granted emergency use approval by the FDA in this country. I know some colleges and universities have opted for accepting international students with any vaccine approved by the World Health Organization, which includes a longer list, but has the US decided on which it will allow beyond Pfizer, Moderna, or J&J for these business and tourism travelers?

Oriana Pawlyk: Not yet. That will be coming out in coming weeks. White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki actually said that yesterday, that the CDC is still determining which vaccines will be okay for foreign travelers to come here. Again, I wouldn't be surprised if, as you mentioned, Pfizer, Moderna, and J&J would be of course approved given that that is what we have approved here.

That would probably be on the list those three, but whether or not some of these other vaccines such as AstraZeneca, I'm wondering if they're waiting for some studies to come through or what the CDC is doing there, but they are still determining what list is going to be on that final approval.

Brian Lehrer: Heather in Miami, you're on WNYC with Oriana Pawlyk reporter for POLITICO. Hi, Heather.

Heather: Hi. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What you got?

Heather: I am American and I spend time in Miami and in Germany in Cologne. My boyfriend is from Germany and I'm actually here right now. I go back and forth and I have to leave him back in Germany every time I come because they are not allowing Germans into the US. Meanwhile, I really couldn't understand why a lot of South America was able to come in and what the real restrictions and why and no one really understands even in Europe.

I know it's a point of contention for them because it is unfair. I'm able to go back and forth freely following the rules obviously and being vaccinated, but no one really knows the reasons why they're not allowed to come to the US, but the Americans are able to come into the EU.

Brian Lehrer: As you understand this new announcement, Heather, will your boyfriend be able to come?

Heather: Yes, he is vaccinating. Finally, it's a huge relief, to be honest. Honestly, I will say a lot of Europeans are very upset about it and quite frankly aren't very keen on coming to the US given the restrictions. I know Germans are a little afraid with-- We haven't unasked at all. Those restrictions haven't lifted, so you have to wear a mask in a restaurant. Obviously, if you're eating [unintelligible 00:13:20].

Brian Lehrer: In Germany you mean?

Heather: Correct.

Brian Lehrer: Heather, thank you. What about that apparent contradiction that she points out about how it's been easier to come from South America than from Germany? Is that your understanding?

Oriana Pawlyk: Yes. I 100% have heard exactly what Heather was just talking about. What a lot of associations, especially those that represent the airlines have been talking about the last few months is that there is a patchwork approach to who's allowed to come to the US, what US members are allowed to go to which countries and where. There is again still no standard of why some people are denied coming here and vice versa. Again, I think the administration is still trying to work through that, but a lot of folks really just want that standard.

I know we had talked about earlier whether or not that would also-- a similar stipulation would apply for even just US domestic travel. People really want to see just the same thing across the board, because everything is quite confusing. Even a year after this pandemic, they're still learning quite a bit, but at the same time, there are no standards just in place. Yesterday's announcement creeps up to potentially getting at that standard but it's not the full plethora of having, okay you have to do A, B, C and D in order to do these things because every country is different.

The one thing that the EU, for example, has done really well is that they did create a vaccine passport. I believe there's this called green something, the green system. They upload their vaccine cards and a majority of the countries unless the vaccination rates have been low or they've had outbreak cases that have started spiking. You can freely move about throughout the countries because you have already bought into that system, which makes travel much easier.

We do not have a similar system. We do not have a proof of vaccination requirement, and we do not have vaccine passports. I believe the state of New York is one of the first to implement that just to go inside of restaurants and public places. Other than that, we have not seen that for movement between state to state, and as a result, we haven't all also seen that from country to country, and people really just want that clarity.

Brian Lehrer: There are a lot of countries in the world where getting fully vaccinated isn't even possible yet. Is this a backdoor way of restricting travel to only developed economies who've been able to stockpile vaccines?

Oriana Pawlyk: That's another great question and another sentiment that has been felt from folks who still do want to travel and they themselves have gotten vaccinated, but they haven't by other means, or maybe they went to another country to get the vaccine or something along those lines, but they are coming from a country which doesn't have a high vaccination rate. That is 100% true. They have not built up enough of their own population getting vaccinated where countries nearby, or even like, for example, the US feels comfortable, or at least in the last few months has felt comfortable with letting folks from countries like that in.

Again, the easement yesterday, again, it's not a country to country standard or a country to country delineation anymore. It really is whether or not you are vaccinated and that's why they are not going by country approaches anymore for the US. They're going by a science-based approach as was said yesterday so that way if you are vaccinated, that's the only criteria that matters.

Brian Lehrer: Charlotte in Jersey City, you're on WNYC with Oriana Pawlyk aviation reporter for POLITICO on these new requirements and loosening of requirements to come into the country. Hi, Charlotte.

Charlotte: Hi, nice to you. I have a small Airbnb bedroom and bathroom in my house and people from Europe have been, mostly Europe have been booking since I would say last November and then canceling and then booking and then canceling and then booking. I have a refund right up practically to the point of them coming here so they're not having any financial problem, but the poor things, I can feel their frustration.

They'll be really apologetic to me and I'll say, "No, I'm really sorry for you guys that really want to come." Somebody just canceled maybe three days ago, and now I may get in touch with them and say, "November, November, you may be able to come in November."

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious from the standpoint of your small business, have you been able to fill up your room with domestic travelers in recent months?

Charlotte: Yes. Starting, whatever, April, May, all of a sudden the bookings really, really moved up. It's not as quite as much in the summer as it had been in summers before COVID, but it's been pretty steady. Groups and people coming for weddings and everybody going to the Statue of Liberty, that seems to be the big lure, and that opened up earlier than anything else because it's all outside.

Brian Lehrer: It's close to Jersey City too.

Charlotte: It's been pretty good.

Brian Lehrer: Charlotte, thank you. Call us again. What an evocative story. All these would be European travelers making reservations at her Airbnb and then canceling and reserving and canceling and reserving and canceling. Michael in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Michael.

Michael: Hi, there. I'm just a little concerned that this turns into a lot of COVID theater and here's why. I have flown into the United States, I live here, from both Europe and in Canada. Technically, you're supposed to get a test in order to be able to get on the airplane, which we have. Then when we get to the airport, all anybody asks us to do is sign basically a crappy piece of mimeograph paper that says I've gotten a test. Nobody at the airline has checked us. Nobody on arriving into the United States has checked us. Basically, anybody could sign this piece of paper and there's no proof demanded by anyone.

Brian Lehrer: I personally know a US citizen who had exactly that experience recently coming back into the country. Oriana, is that a pattern?

Oriana Pawlyk: There have been reports that yes, some things are just a little bit neglected depending on where you're flying into. It's, again, one of those mismatched patchwork of who's checking what, and why isn't it being as enforced at certain airports or at certain airlines as it is at others.

From a standpoint of Hawaii, for example, Hawaii has one of the strictest types of navigations that you have to basically jump through hoops just to get into Hawaii. You have to take a negative test just before you get on the plane. You have to deplane, you have to go to a port of entry where then you have to get another test right when you get off. It's very strict in some states and in others it's just not.

Again, I think it really has to go back to the fact that the states have not implemented one set standard because they are basically waiting for the administration to say, "Hey, we want X, Y, Z. This is what it is. From everybody, no ifs, ands, or buts." That just has not happened yet. At this point, it's really on the airlines to check and it's really for enforcement authorities at airports to check. Right now, you're going to see different points of debarkation and different states doing different things.

Brian Lehrer: To use Michael's phrase, it's vaccine theater depending on what state you're in and what airport you're entering through.

Oriana Pawlyk: Yes. It really just depends. Sometimes I wouldn't say you'd get away with it but sometimes it's a little bit of an easier ride for some folks. Whereas in others, you're going to be waiting at the customs line or whatnot for hours just to make sure that somebody checks and scans you the correct way. I think it's just because of that lack of standard and a lack of technology for governments to try to see whether or not someone's been vaccinated.

Again, the EU has a great system because they have one set standard for all the countries. Here we just do not have that.

Brian Lehrer: Now, Dr. Fauci told the podcast, the scam that he would like to see a vaccine requirement for domestic air travel. Noting that just because he supports it doesn't mean it will happen. Has that gotten traction elsewhere in the Biden administration?

Oriana Pawlyk: That is in discussion. I believe that there is a meeting coming up either this month or next with some of the major airlines and some of the associations that I mentioned earlier that represent the airlines with administration officials to try to see whether or not it will be required. As pointed out from what we've heard previously, the administration also said that they weren't going to mandate vaccines. Then this summer that happened.

They said that they don't want to go the standard of collecting data and information on people. Now, with foreign nationals that's happened. It's a little bit of a change and fluctuation of what they want to pursue. Domestic travel is such a hot-button issue because so many people, of course, we've seen the outrage at airports just from people being told to wear a mask on a plane.

There might just be a little bit of reservation on if passengers will feel that same outrage if they're asked to have a proof of vaccination with them to even board an airplane. I think that they're treading lightly before they have any decision mandated. Even before the holidays, I would be very surprised if they did make a decision before this year's holidays but who knows? Again, like I said earlier, the administration said, no, one month, and then the next month it changed its mind.

Brian Lehrer: So many stories coming in on the phones, let's hear a couple more. Raymond in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Raymond?

Raymond: Hi, how are you doing?

Brian Lehrer: Good. You're from Ireland?

Raymond: I am from Ireland and this summer we cut back to see our friends and families for the first time in obviously since the start of the lockdown. We've been vaccinated all of us, myself, my wife, my son in New York. We're one of many thousands who are not tourists but are here on visas. We don't have green cards but we're living here legally and working. We've got an investor visa at this house and some L visas, H visas.

In order to come back to the United States, even though we were vaccinated, we had to spend two weeks outside Ireland before we returned home. Essentially, I spent a week seeing friends and family and then had to sit for two weeks in Croatia before I could get on a plane and fly back. At which point, immigration wants to know why I didn't have a stamp on my passport for Croatia as it's an EU country. They don't actually stamp your passport if you're going from one to the other.

We're just privileged to be able to afford to do that. It was fantastic to see friends and family but for so many people, this is going to make such a difference in their lives.

Just being able to see and give somebody they love a hug. I think it's going to be really, really positive.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for that. Now let me understand, was there something that made it easier to fly here from Croatia than from Ireland?

Raymond: Yes. Croatia isn't in what's called the Schengen travel area. There's about two or three countries that are in the European Union but are not part of a common travel area. Croatia, Bulgaria, a couple of others. They were not part of president Biden's proclamation. If you stayed in Ireland for any length of time, you could then travel to somewhere like Croatia for a couple of weeks and then fly back to the United States.

We stayed near Dubrovnik, which is where they filmed Game of Thrones, which is a lovely place to stay. Obviously, most people don't have that kind of option.

Brian Lehrer: This will level out that standard.

Raymond: Yes. Exactly.

Brian Lehrer: Raymond, thank you so much. Good luck to you and your family and friends who've been subject to that. Let me get one more in here. Sari in Park Slope, you're on WNYC. Hi, Sari.

Sari: Hi, Brian. This pandemic has truly made us all face circumstances beyond our control. It's difficult for me to want to complain about my situation. I'm a professional musician and I tour all over the world. My band is based in the UK. We have not been able to see each other for 18 months because they were restricted from entering the US. Now, as COVID regulations started to ease across Europe, we had another tour in place throughout Europe, including the UK.

We have just had to cancel that because different quarantine regulations just started to wreak havoc with the tour. A band moves quickly from one country to another and we just couldn't afford 10-day mandatory quarantines in the Netherlands overall in general.

Brian Lehrer: Over and over again.

Sari: Yes.

Brian Lehrer: Now?

Sari: Well, this is the best news that we've had in a long time because now my record label, which is based in the UK, is able to look at creating the US side of the tour. We're so hopeful that we'll be able to get back out on the road. That's the reward for all the hard work that we do in this studio, all those lonely hours. We can't wait to get back on tour. Let alone, it is our source of income.

Brian Lehrer: Do you want to say who you are or the name of your band?

Sari: Sure. My name is Sari Schorr. I record for Manhaton Records in the UK.

Brian Lehrer: There's at least one song on your next album from this story, right?

Sari: There sure is. [laughs]

Brian Lehrer: Sari, thank you very, very much for your call, and good luck to you. We will look for that record. Hey, last question for you Oriana. I know some airlines are requiring their employees to be vaccinated but some last I saw are not. What's the status of that?

Oriana Pawlyk: We've heard from United Airlines is one that is requiring it. A few others, it might be I think Frontier and Hawaiian. They're definitely requiring it from employees. By the way, since they've announced it, those CEOs of those airlines have come out and said that their vaccination rates have come up from employees, almost hitting a 90th percentile of vaccination rate for their companies.

There are other airlines that have put in other stipulations such as Delta. If you are not vaccinated by X date then you will have a $200 surcharge added to your insurance every month, and/or you have to take a negative COVID test. Some other folks have filed for religious exemptions and whether or not those have been approved, if you were denied, then you have until X date to quit essentially. The airlines are making it pretty hard for its employees to really just say, "Hey, you just need to buck up and get the vaccine."

We haven't heard back from some major airlines on what their plan is. For the most part, I think employees who have seen what other airlines are doing are saying, if this does come down, as a decision that the airline that I'm working at, I have to make a decision sooner than later hopefully. We have seen movement on that front from some of the major airlines. I'd like to add to something that was discussed.

The quarantine requirement has been, by the way, waived for foreign nationals coming to, the US from yesterday's announcement. Unvaccinated Americans or partially vaccinated Americans who want to return to stateside, they have to have a COVID negative test one day within the departure, as well as a viral test that they have to take as soon as they get home. Still things that unvaccinated or partially vaccinated folks have to keep in mind.

Brian Lehrer: Very interesting, great information. Amazing stories from our callers and what an interesting way for Delta Airlines to thread the needle. No vaccination requirement but if you're an unvaccinated employee, you have to pay $200 a month extra toward your health insurance. They have to figure out something when they have the unfortunate name Delta at this particular time, and you're an airline. We leave it there with Oriana Pawlyk, aviation reporter for POLITICO. Thanks for all this.

Oriana Pawlyk: Thank you so much.

 

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