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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. It is now one year and two days since the New York City public schools first went all remote at the start of the pandemic. How and how much to go back in-person is still a work in progress, with different stakeholders having different opinions. This week, we've spoken to WNYC and Gothamist education reporter Jessica Gould with some of her reporting, a panel of high school students, and now UFT President Michael Mulgrew with the view from the teacher's union. We'll talk about the coming reopening of high schools, the coming of COVID relief bill money, and what it might be used for. The union hopes a lot of it will go to student and teacher mental health.

We'll discuss the three-foot versus six-foot question and more, and our phones are open for teachers, or parents, or students at 646-435-7280. Hi, Michael. Always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Michael: Thank you, Brian, for having me and I hope you're well.

Brian: Now, is Monday next week the day that high schools reopen?

Michael: Yes, 22nd.

Brian: How are your members getting ready for that day? How is it different than how they may have gotten ready for elementary or middle school?

Michael: Basically, what they're doing is they're in the schools today and tomorrow. Schools got to choose which day to go in and they're checking right now to make sure all of their procedures are in place. Each school has what's known as a COVID building response team. They're checking to make sure they have a two-week supply of PPE, they're changing all of the batteries on the thermometers, they're just checking to make sure everything's in place and ready to go so that everything is nice and safe when the students return on Monday. That's what's going on.

It's basically the same process we've used, which is we have a plan for every school, the school then customize the plan, and then in September and as each of the three reopenings, it was the same process of make sure everything's in place, make sure everybody understands how everything works, and if something happens, what everyone's supposed to do. We're really proud of our members and our building response team.

Brian: Can I get your take, since we just had epidemiologists Dr. Morris talking about three feet versus six feet? Does the union have a position on that for any age? There was a study in Massachusetts, for example, cited in the New York Times article where some schools opened at three feet and others at six feet and they found no difference in COVID rates.

Michael: Yes. It was one study. At this point, we have a boot group of independent doctors we've been working with since, basically, April of last year. We asked them this question a month ago. We said, "What do we need to do in terms of what we are facing with challenges for September?" We're trying to make sure that we're getting everyone back, but we want to get them back safely. That has a lot to do with also creating some comfort and trust with the parents because 70% of the parents in New York City have still chosen to keep their students at home and we're trying to show folks that we've done it very safely. We're clearly the place where when school districts go to open, they come to us and ask us what we have done.

On the three-foot versus six-foot, we're waiting for these experts to tell us and we'll follow their guidelines. We made a pledge a year ago that safety first, and when it comes to anything with this virus, it's independent medical experts who will determine our path. It is not politicians and it is not members. It's got to be we will let these independent medical experts deal with it. There's so much fear and anxiety, as you know, with any of this and we just have to be upfront about it. It's a tough situation, but we opened.

We were the only large school district to open in September and we have proven that we can keep people safe. Again, it's not a political discussion and it's not a discussion where people just feel a certain way. It has to come from the independent medical experts.

Brian: I'm going to go to Daniella, a parent in Washington Heights with the question that is overwhelmingly the most common question that people are calling in with and tweeting for you at this moment. Daniella, you get the honors of asking it. Welcome to WNYC.

Daniella: Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate it.

Michael: Morning, Daniella.

Daniella: Good morning, Michael. I'm going to ask you, Michael, not only why the two case rule, which shuts down our schools for two unlinked cases is still in effect, but why during a ten-day shut down, kids can still go to their learning bridges program, often with the same kids they would go to school with, but still can't go to school? How is that keeping anyone safe?

Michael: In terms of the learning bridges program, the learning bridges, as you know, was set up for people who need childcare services. Many of our own members use learning bridges also. The two case rule was the piece that was put forth by the city originally. We sent it to our independent doctors and they said, "If you cannot," remember, this is two non-linked cases. If the test and tracing people can determine that we have been able to isolate everybody in the school because we know if we have a positive case and then we can figure out where everyone they have had a close contact with and isolate them, then that's what we do.

The majority of our closures are for individual classrooms. If there's two non-linked cases where they can't determine where the virus or who came into contact, then the doctors have said to us, then the issue there becomes that we can't tell you that just closing this class is going to keep everyone else in the building safe. For that piece, they said we need to then isolate the building, quarantine the building, or isolate, depending on what the person's test results were. Then wait for 10 days and bring them back. That is the only way, as medical experts have told us, that they can guarantee that both the children, and their families, and the people who work in the building, and their families should be safe that way.

As we go further down the road, we're going to find out and doctors are going to tell us more and more. What we have seen now is we are dropping the number of school closures. As the vaccine has become more and more prevalent, we have definitely seen a drop and a trend, also, of schools closing less and less.

Brian: What frustrates so many parents about this, and I've heard from parents I know with kids in the schools who've been through this as well as those who call and might enter the show. When two cases are discovered in a building that might be physically far from each other, in classrooms far from each other, and a link can't be established between them, it's really disruptive for families. The mayor has indicated that they are reevaluating this rule, this 10-day disruption for a whole school building for two cases that can't even be linked to each other as being a cluster. Are you ready for it to be relaxed?

Michael: No. The way you just phrased that is it they're not even linked. That's the problem. If they are linked, we know how we can isolate it. Because they are not linked, that is the actual problem that we have. This is what the doctors have explained to us over and over again. We, the teachers themselves, do not like their schools closing because it causes a disruption for them also. These are in-person teachers, they have prepared to teach in-person, and then they have to switch back into the remote setting. This stuff, none of this is fair, and none of this is ideal, but we're coming through hopefully, and this is a big hopefully, man, I'm telling you.

This is a big, hopefully, we're finally coming through this thing, and now it's about getting as many of the children back as possible and not having to follow these rules that we all would prefer not to have. We can't just say, because they're inconvenience, we don't want them. Then we make a mistake. God knows this country, because of political reasons, because of a bunch of people who acted like they were medical experts when they're not, really led us into a horrendous situation. We should not be in the situation we're in if we would have used common sense and logic versus all this.

You just brought up before the State of Michigan. We know why the State of Michigan has these large [unintelligible 00:09:24]. Since you have a large group of people there who have refused to follow any rules at any point in this pandemic. We would have to wait for the doctors to bring us the data, but it stands to reason why they're having a spike is because we have these variants that are much more contagious and you have a section of that State that has refused to follow any rules. I think that's what you do. We're waiting for the doctors to tell us, but preliminarily, that's what the doctors are telling us is happening in Europe.

Brian: Debra in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with UFT President Michael Mulgrew. Hi, Debra.

Debra: Hi. I'm have a question for Michael Mulgrew, how are you?

Michael: Fine, you?

Debra: I'm very good. You keep referencing in that 70% of parents have opted into remote and want to remain remote. However, to my knowledge, you haven't surveyed parents since September, 2020. I think, given how much everything has changed and with increased vaccinations, that number has more than likely dramatically dropped. Do you believe that you should be surveying again to get an updated statistic?

Michael: The city made a mistake last year by surveying who was opting out, where they should have said who was opting in. Then they did do it again in October through November, they did have another opt in period. That's happened twice. We are hoping that we get a much larger percentage of children back in. We want the children back in. This is why we fought to open our schools. We understand that in a remote setting, a child's getting an education, but it is not the same as when they are in person. We're trying to start again with the city on how to plan for summer school and reopening them next year.

I think the city has been clear that the same mistakes that were made last year by not engaging in that process on their side is not going to be made again. The first thing we're going to say is we need to get out very clear guidelines for parents to opt in because when we're planning to open school, we need to know,, the first piece for us is how many are coming in person. We want to be able to talk to parents more and more about what they need to hear that would make them feel comfortable. Again, it's always going to be, in the end, what the medical doctors are telling us.

I think you're right, it is time to start saying to parents, "If we should stop this opt in list of who wants to come back to school," because I'm really hoping to have the majority of children back into school next year.

Brian: Sometimes the union has its medical experts, the city has its medical experts and that's part of the negotiation process.

Michael: No, I do it this way Brian. I want to check you on that one. I've made sure that every independent medical expert we use is not on our payroll and it's not on the city's payroll. I said, "We just want you to tell us what you believe." If these experts were on our payroll, I would understand what you just said, but they're not. I do have a problem with the department of health, the doctors are telling us what the mayor wants.

Brian: Sometimes it's not doctors on the payroll, but doctors who have been consulted because you know their predilections or whatever. The new school's chancellor Misha Porter says she's aiming for full five day reopening this September, as I understand it. What would it take for the union to sign off on that?

Michael: I think that we're going to see a lot of changes. We spoken to our membership and we said, "Look," as we had the fight last year to have all of these safety procedures and policies in place, and they've done a great job because we have not had a spread inside of any school in New York city. People pointed at us, we can do more, or is it really because we're doing so much that we haven't had the spreads? My goal would be. What I've been saying to the members is that, "Look, the doctors are now going to start moving because we learn more and more every month. They're going to start moving into loosening up some of these some of these policies and we're going to follow them once again.'

I want full day five instruction in September. I think that should be the goal but we, the teachers, can't do that on their own. That really comes down to a lot of everybody in New York city. I'm really happy that I live in New York city right now because the people in New York City, I think because we got hit so hard so early, we have handled his virus really well in terms of following the rules and understanding that we're all in this together. That's what it's going to take. Hopefully by September, we're there. That's really what we're going to try to plan for.

Brian: Question from a parent who wrote in and the parent asks, "Why hasn't the UFT surveyed its members to find out how many have been vaccinated? Wasn't the goal of vaccination to get more teachers and more kids back into classrooms?

Michael: They have privacy rights just like everybody else does. We're going to support their privacy. A lot of our teachers, we asked our teachers, we did survey, we did poll, some polling on the membership, and about 74%, which was more than most places, and this was a couple of months ago, said they really wanted to get the vaccine. We set up our own program, so to make sure that they could get vaccine, we've exhausted our list. 34,000, members came to us, but many members that said that they were getting it from different places.

I am a little upset that the city and state did not keep track of their numbers. That would have been helpful, since when you go to get vaccinated, you have to click on if you're a teacher or you work in a school building. The fact that the city and the state don't know what the number, I know they like to blame each other. I don't know what went on there, but I can tell you, we matched 34,000 members to vaccines.

Brian: Is there a balance between privacy and transparency? Maybe there's a way where individual teachers don't have to reveal their status, but the school would know the percentage of teachers in the school who'd been vaccinated and report it to the parents, something like that?

Michael: When we originally started hearing about vaccine, it came down to every state had to make a decision. Every state had to make a decision whether they were going to mandate vaccination, which under a health emergency, they had a right to do, or not mandate it. We were more towards the, you should not mandate it. We waited for the state to come out with their policy and they said they will not mandate it.

Brian: Aren't kids required to be vaccinated? They mandate for kids to be vaccinated in public school, right?

Michael: Certain diseases, not all. There's a list of things that you're required to be vaccinated for. Now, I believe that they're going to start addressing that at both the national level, the state level. Then hopefully the states don't, but they probably will. This seems to be how government works now, everybody kicks it down to make it somebody else's responsibility, but there should be a real national discussion on, does this really go on the list of everybody needs to be vaccinated inside of a public building if they're working in a public building. That should be a national discussion.

I don't think the country's ready to have that discussion yet because they're still debating on whether they get the vaccine or not. Actually driving policy down to the school level is something that should be part of it when people are ready. I think right now it's more about just getting through enough people vaccinated so we can get to that, quote, herd immunity.

Brian: We have a couple of minutes left with UFT president Michael Mulgrew. I'm going to read you a tweet from a parent, I guess, who is skeptical about high school actually starting on Monday in the city. The parent writes, "Michael Mulgrew is on Brain Lehrer right now talking about how high school starts on Monday and nobody I know has been invited back to learn in person. Why are New York city leaders pretending that they're restarting in-person high schools?" Is there any doubt or is there a system of notifying parents? I realize you're not the department of education, but go ahead.

Michael: Brian. Just watch the news on Monday. I don't know what else to tell the person. They're coming back. The other thing, Brian, we're fighting for. Now, it's really about also we have to start thinking about there's a massive challenge now for education. This city school system is going to great face its greatest challenge. For the rest of this year and especially next year, we know there's been major academic loss, there's been all sorts of emotional crisis and trauma. We know we need to do something for all of our graduates.

Brian: I want to get you to the mental health piece. I know you want to talk about that and we'll finish with that in a second. I think that person who tweeted wants to know why there isn't another opt in period that's opening simultaneously with the high schools reopening.

Michael: That is a question for the mayor.

Brian: Do you support having another one?

Michael: I would have to look at, right now, the schools. It would cause us to have to step back and reschedule all the schools, to basically reprogram all the buildings at this moment. There's an opportunity at different times to do that and those would be originally the school year was broken down into, there would be opt in periods at different points during the school year. The mayor made a determination that he didn't want to do that and put in one single opt-in, additional opt-in period, which was October, November. There would have been another one right now, right before the spring break. Originally that was in the plan that we endorsed. The mayor's the one who made the changes on that.

Brian: You're for one more opt in period?

Michael: Again, it has to be done in a timely manner so schools can completely reprogram because that's what it requires, which is no easy task.

Brian: Last thing, I know you want to talk about the mental health of both students and teachers after this trying year, including how you want some of the COVID relief bill money that's coming to the city used. How much money for what kind of mental health spending?

Michael: It's not just mental health, because that money is to undo the damage of what children have faced. This has not been fair. Everybody has to grasp that it hasn't been fair to anyone but our children, I believe, are our greater responsibility. What we're asking for is to have an intervention team at each school. It's not just for mental health, we need the baseline where a child is emotionally at this point, they might be fine. They might have to need a little bit of support, or they might need a clinical intervention, but the same thing has to be said about their learning, their academics. We need to do the same thing on that side.

What I would like to do is baseline every child in New York City. This way, we could set up a plan and move them to the place which we want them to be which is on grade level, feeling good about themselves, and not wait for years for this all of this damage to get undone. I think we should go at it, let's just go at it really hard and fast. We have that money. That would cost literally a little over a billion dollars to do that. The city itself, school K through 12 education, between the two CARES Act and what was just recently passed is over $7 billion. It's $100 per child per month for one year, and I think we should be able to get that done.

I think it's the right thing to do and not wait years, because if not, what are we going to do? What is the city? What is any educational institution proposing to do with this money? I know we need PPE, we're going to continue to need it, we're going to need some testing, but really this is to undo the damage. I'd rather use it specifically on things that we know are going to help children. We want to train our teachers, and we have to deal with the fact that our own, so many of our members, just so many folks in society, have really suffered. This is what we got to do, and I think it would be another lost opportunity if the city doesn't engage in this process.

Brian: Has the city responded to that yet?

Michael: No. I did it publicly, and I've gotten no response. I'm getting a little worried. That sounds a little bit like last year, once again.

Brian: Well, quick political question then to end on. A number of unions have already taken positions in the mayoral primary and endorsed candidates.

Michael: I heard.

Brian: Are you?

Michael: Not yet.

Brian; What are you looking for?

Michael: Not yet. We just finished our first round of forums, and we're now meeting. What we're going to do is have one more forum, what we consider to be our finalists. It's based off of their policies, their viability, and a bunch of other things. Then we'll get all our political action folks together, our activists, and we'll make a decision whether we're going to go in and make an endorsement or not. I'm assuming we will, but we do this all together. It's really an important piece because the next mayor and all the city council seats and all the other seats that are up, these are going to be our partners inside of undoing the damage from COVID and getting our economy back moving strongly. It's a very important election cycle.

Brian: Do you have a top policy litmus test?

Michael: We don't believe in a litmus test unless you say you hate kids and education, that would be a litmus test. We try not to do that. We like to hear people out, but our members, believe me, the UFT members of New York City are not shy about having their opinions heard, which is why I love them dearly.

Brian: The I Hate Kids Party not getting the UFT endorsements, the other ones are in play. UFT President Michael Mulgrew, thank you very, very much.

Michael: Thank you Brain, and be well.

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