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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now an update on two stories about the NYPD reported here in-house. I'm joined by Gothamist WNYC reporter, Jake Offenhartz, who has looked into where those police officers with bicycles and body armor came from when they started showing up at protests this summer, and kept showing up this winter after the mayor had promised to call them off. George Joseph, reporter with WNYC's race and justice unit, he's here to talk about a lawsuit that Gothamist and WNYC have now filed against the Bronx DA's office over its failure to comply with a public record's request for a database the office maintains of NYPD officers with credibility issues. The station's position is, if a DA keeps a list of police officers who might testify against you in court one day but have lied to prosecutors before, you have a right to know about it.

Hi, George, and Hi, Jake.

George Joseph: Good morning, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: George, let me start with you. What's this lawsuit the station has filed against the Bronx DA, tell us more, that was based on your reporting?

George Joseph: Yes, listeners might remember, for the last few years, we've been reporting on the secret databases that prosecutors across the city have started to develop. Basically, the databases are to help prosecutors track officers who may have credibility issues so that they can sometimes inform defendants about those issues if they're going to call officers to the stand. This includes judges saying, "I feel this officer lied." This includes NYPD internal misconduct findings about things like false statements or other types of misconduct. There's a wide variety of things here prosecutor notes.

Over the last few years, these records have been kept internally. While we've got little bits of them, including from the Bronx DA, a lot of the data, including a whole database kept by Bronx prosecutors, have not come out. We waited almost two years for these records to come out, the Bronx DA has not complied with our public records request, even after promising to release parts of it. We decided to go to court and sue to get it.

Brian Lehrer: The lawsuit, as I understand it, is just against the Bronx DA. Have the other four days turned over their lists for public transparency?

George Joseph: It all depends. For example, the Queens district attorney's office, just last week, released a significant part of their database or their list, and so we're starting to get some of the records from different district attorneys. We're also in talks with others to release other parts of those databases.

Brian Lehrer: When we say police officers with credibility issues, and that the DA keep lists of those officers, how broad, I think you started to get it this a minute ago, but how broad or how specific is the definition of credibility issues? Are these police officers who have basically perjured themselves under oath, or police officers who may have been sloppy and made inaccurate reports but not necessarily told intentional lies? What does credibility issues mean for officers who wind up on this list?

George Joseph: Yes, that's a great question, Brian. To be fair to NYPD officers who are in these databases, there's a lot of variation here. In some cases, judges will say, "I do not credit this testimony, or I can't believe this, or this stretches the truth." Others will be like, "I just am not really sure about this, or maybe something strains credulity here." There's a variation, and the same goes for NYPD misconduct findings.

A misconduct finding could be something like a misleading statement versus a full statement versus some missing evidence that raises red flags. Not every officer who is in these databases has done the same thing, and the NYPD will point out, sometimes the department and prosecutors disagree with what judges have said, and they don't necessarily have an appeals process for those findings. Prosecutors maintain these records, but not all of the records have the same level of strength.

Brian Lehrer: All right. George Joseph, standby, we're going to come back to you for more detail, but let's go over to Jake Offenhartz now, Gothamist in WNYC reporter who's following the so-called strategic response group and the city's promise not to use them for policing protests anymore, but they were doing it anyway as of December.

Jake, this is sometimes described as a group of officers in bicycles and body armor, which right there is such an incongruous image from the start. Why bikes and body armor?

Jake Offenhartz: I think it's an interesting question that gets out of the heart of the controversy about this [unintelligible 00:05:09]. Basically, because this group was born as an anti-terror force, they were first announced in 2015 by the [unintelligible 00:05:19] tenure, this was supposed to be a group that was doing counter-terror policing. In fact, New Yorkers were assured by Chief of Department, [unintelligible 00:05:29] O'Neill, that they would not be involved in protests at all. Then that just didn't really happen, and later that year, we saw them making their first appearance that Black Lives Matter demonstrations.

If you fast forward about five years, they were really the tip of the spear against the protests. We saw the rise from the killing of George Floyd this past summer, they were involved in a lot of the most brutal crackdowns, and it was this group, many which have bikes, many of which have tactical armor, they were trained in disorder control, with an eye towards specific counterterrorism actions, and they were really leading this response in a way that recent reports from the Department of investigation and the law department have called into question. They want to know why the NYPD's Community Affairs Bureau is not playing a big central role, but it's the anti-terror, heavily militarized, SRG group that is.

We still don't really have a clear answer on that, and we also haven't seen the city follow through on their commitment to pull the SRG back. In fact, we got some report that there was a protest last night over the deaths of Daniel Prude in Rochester, and the decision not to invite those officers, and SRG officers were at that demonstration, we heard, despite the mayor's office promising that they would re-evaluate the role that they played in political demonstrations.

Brian Lehrer: Now, listeners, if you have a question or perhaps a relevant experience to either of these ongoing WNYC and Gothamist investigations, we welcome your calls for our reporters, Jake Offenhartz and George Joseph, at 646-435-7280, or you can Tweet your comment or question @BrianLehrer.

Jake, many of our listeners will remember, because we've covered it here multiple times, Amnesty International, as well as the city's department of investigation, both found fault with the NYPD's overly violent response to protests and its practice of kettling, like surrounding demonstrators and then attacking them even when they were being peaceful. Is that part of the strategic response groups, MO in particular? In other words, if they disband-- not disband, but if they call off the SRG from racial justice and other political protests, does that mean the kettling goes away?

Jake Offenhartz: I think that that is part of the idea. Although, I think you meant Human Rights Watch, although--

Brian Lehrer: Oh, Human Rights.

Jake Offenhartz: --may have weighed in, but Human Rights Watch.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, Human Rights Watch, I apologize. I got my human rights groups mixed up there for a second. Go ahead.

Jake Offenhartz: [chuckles] Understandable. Yes, I would say that the strategic response group was really the leading unit that was deploying this very controversial tactic that we call kettling. The NYPD says that they don't use the word kettling, it's a containment strategy for them. The idea is that this is a militarized line formation that was really popularized first with the disorder control unit, which is the predecessor to the SRG, and was perfected in a way by the SRG.

We got to look at some references from a police officer to the creating materials which they have not released publicly, but they talk about members of the SRG bike squad, they call themselves linebacker or point officer. They have these very elaborate and, using this word militarized because I don't know what else to call it, but the New Yorkers have seen this group charge while they're chanting in unison move. They're using their bikes to push people back. That is squarely an SRG tactic that if you get rid of the SRG or get rid of their rolling protests, [unintelligible 00:09:48].

Brian Lehrer: We'll go to the phones in a minute, people are calling in mostly about their own encounters with a strategic response group. WNYC's George Joseph from our race and justice unit, on the lawsuit that the station filed against the Bronx DA to get more information released about the officers in the database that they keep officers who have credibility problems with their reports and their potential testimony on the witness stand, have they responded from the Bronx DA's office? Do they have either just a legal technicality that they're standing behind, or do they argue, "You know, it doesn't actually help the cause of justice or public safety to publicize the names of these officers. We know who they are, and we'll monitor them if we know they have credibility, or do they have any specific content response to the lawsuit?

George Joseph: With regards to this specific lawsuit, because it is a pending legal action, they haven't issued a public statement in response to our reporting, at the very least, but they did promise that in court filings which are due pretty soon, they will respond. Previously, as part of the Freedom of Information law process, they also made various arguments about the pandemic. For example, the difficulties in doing office work during the pandemic has caused some of these delays in responding to our request. That is bellied by the fact that they missed multiple deadlines before the pandemic, by which they promised to release these records.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here is Justin in Brooklyn who has a question about this strategic response group. Hi, Justin, you're on WNYC.

Justin: Hi, Brian. Thanks for having me, and thank you for having this conversation. The SRG was part of the group name of which actually arrested me last summer at a protest. I'm actually calling about something different. The SRG was also the unit that responded to the mental health crisis that resulted in Saheed Vassell's death in 2018. Saheed was killed on Utica in Brooklyn, in Crown Heights. In the aftermath, a lot of questions came up. First of all, it was very difficult to get any details surrounding why the SRG was responding to a mental health crisis. It seems to me that having a group rooted in counterterrorism work respond to mental health crises is a terrible idea to start with. Second, I'm wondering if, and I wonder if Jake or George have any thoughts on this, if having the SRG respond to these ways makes it even harder to get transparency around police violence issues, in particular things that involve the murder of a citizen.

Brian Lehrer: Jake, do you want to take that?

Jake Offenhartz: Yes. Saheed Vassell's killing was a very big deal at the time. If I remember, correctly, it was both SRG officers and plainclothes officers with the NYPD's anti-Crime Unit, which is the NYPD essentially, so they're disbanding. It's two controversial parts of the police department. I think George can speak to this too, but to your question of transparency from the department, yes, it's an ongoing struggle, no matter what information you're trying to get. One thing that we noticed pretty early on into the protests is that the SRG officers were not displaying their badge numbers on this new uniform that they had, so sort of the combat-style shoulder pads and chest plates. There was just nowhere that had their name or badge number. We would ask them about that and they would just shrug. That made our jobs more difficult when you're trying to track individual officers.

Since then, the NYPD has said that they've added implants to these uniforms so that we've seen it in some cases and not other cases. Another thing we've tried to get that I mentioned is the training materials. This is something that the NYPD pretty fiercely guards. I imagine that maybe they'll come out as a result of litigation. That's what happened with the last unit, the disorder control unit, and we feel we have some draft memos as a result of public defenders filing lawsuits. The NYPD really feels that it is not in the public interest for New Yorkers to know what training these officers go through. I think a lot of people would disagree with that.

Brian Lehrer: I think we have a caller. Let's see if I can find that caller. There's a caller who saw them training somewhere. Oh, here it is. Derek in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Derek. You're going to follow-up on what Jake just said, I think. Go ahead.

Derek: Oh, yes. Good morning, Brian. I would protest a lot in the summer, and I also spent a lot of time on Randalls Island, and they seem to be using that as their training field. Watching them do these military exercises, and chanting move and pushing people with bikes. Then I think you mentioned that they call themselves linebackers. They would open up the lines and let guys run through, and then run after them. It just seemed like they were training to hunt people, and then you go out to protest and that's exactly what they would do.

Brian Lehrer: You just happened to run into a SRG training, that's what it looked like to you, on Randalls Island?

Derek: Oh, it was hard to miss. It was right across from the fire department's training grounds there, in the huge parking lots that were empty all summer, because there were no sports, and there were hundreds of them. It looked like a scene from the antagonist's army marching in a movie. It was enormous. The giant trailers and military-style vehicles parked there. It was deliberately frightening to see. Then you'd see it translate right into the street.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for that image and that report. Derek in Brooklyn. James in Chelsea is calling to defend the strategic response group. Let's take some pushback. James, you're on WNYC. Thanks for calling in.

James: I don't know that it's pushed back. It's just my experience. I saw, on the street, violent protesters and body armor of their own, and the Strategic Response Unit surrounding them. The arrests occurred when property started to get destroyed, and people started to get shoved around. I don't know what you're supposed to do, just throw down your arms in the face of complete of armed resistance, coming from the protesters, which has been reframed, in many cases, a reckoning when it was just wanton property destruction and violence. I don't get it. It seems like we're back in a complete epidemic of crime. I was born in this city 52 years ago, and I find the hypocrisy of all of this shocking, to be quite honest.

Brian Lehrer: James, thank you. We do have to separate street crime from the violence you were describing, that you witnessed with protesters and body armor, destroying things, if that was a real thing. Jake, where's the line?

Jake Offenhartz: I think it's a good point to raise. I don't think anyone would say that every protester in the last eight months has been entirely peaceful. One of the interesting takeaways from the department investigations, lengthy report, is they look this body of scholarship that says, the way that police departments approach protests can either escalate tensions and contribute to property damage, or de-escalate tensions. The prevailing wisdom, which was put forth in this Obama-era Task Force on 21st Century Policing, is that sending officers in heavy body armor to protests, pulling up paddy wagons coming out with this intimidating approach, really has the effect of leading to more disruption very often. There's this recommendation, it's often referred to as the Madison method. Basically, departments are supposed to see themselves as facilitators of protest. There's this Guardian mindset, and as often as possible, their urge to wear soft uniforms rather than hard uniforms, meaning just their day-to-day uniforms.

That notion really goes against the way that the NYPD has approached protests for years in New York City before the SRG and to this day. The recommendations that Mayor de Blasio agreed to have called for a reshaping of this philosophy, and we'll see. I don't have a perfect answer for James, but I think it is interesting that there's a lot of research that suggests very often having officers like the SRG there can escalate violence.

Brian Lehrer: One more call before we run out of time. Edwin in East Flatbush who has worked in law enforcement. Edwin, you're on WNYC. Hi.

Edwin: How you doing, Lehrer? [unintelligible 00:19:41] I'm thinking as a private citizen, despite being an active Lieutenant in a police department, one thing I want to set clear is SRG was created for those types of responses. There's another group that I think is getting confused with SRG's responsibilities. That is a group that's primarily for counterterrorism, and it's called CRC. They look the same, but they don't operate the same way.

The other part is, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you call the group, if we do not shift the culture, you can still end up with some of the troubling videos that we saw this past summer.

Simultaneously, we have to remember, first amendment protests, it's not the first amendment for no reason, but there was a certain level of violence in terms of property damage, where if officers are around, it is their duty, it'll be misconduct for them not to take action. We have to be balanced in understanding that. Now, none of that justifies pulling down masking and spraying OC in people's faces, none of that justifies violently pushing someone that's 110 pounds soaking wet to the ground, none of that justifies, again, a lot of the behavior that we saw, but that behavior is representative of the culture, not the name of a group.

Again, this is from experience, it doesn't matter what you name it, if we do not shift the culture, we will be here again. Whatever it's going to be named two years from now, it'll be that name being called out on this program.

Brian Lehrer: I hear you on both sides of this, the responsibility that the police officers have under certain circumstances that they might encounter, and the culture problem that you're calling out, how would you describe the culture problem? How would you put that? How would you describe that culture in words, that is problematic? It's something that you see as somebody on the inside who's concerned about this, is changing it all in response to all of the events and conversation of 2020.

Edwin: Overall, certain communities, Black and brown communities, are seen as these godforsaken places, that people from the suburbs have come doing God's work to come in and keep safe, and these people are ungrateful. That's what the culture is. That's the thinking. Again, the issues come from the top, as long as we have the type of leadership that we have, unwilling to accept that change is needed, they will continue to perpetuate the issue, they will find younger versions of themselves to replace themselves to keep it going. They will keep building on public relations [unintelligible 00:22:36] to make it seem as if change is coming, but when the doors are closed inside of the conference room, it's business as usual. We have to change culture by changing what we incentivize.

I am a candidate for City Council, these are all the things that I'm planning to implement if I make it to City Hall, hopefully I make it to the City Hall, but regardless, these are the changes that I've been trying to get over five years now since becoming a whistleblower. We have to change the culture. It can be done, believe me. I know, after over 12 years of experience, it can be done. I'm not one of those cynical people that think that throw policing in the trash. I know what can be done. There are justice-minded officers all throughout the department that are just very silent because they don't want to risk their careers, but they are waiting to speak. They're waiting for the platform to implement these changes. We've just got to get them into those positions of power.

Brian Lehrer: Edwin, thank you so much for your call. We really appreciate it. As we finish up with our two reporters, Jake Offenhartz and George Joseph, who are breaking stories about police behavior and following up on those stories. George, I'll go to you for a closing question. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that all the callers had experiences on the street with police officers protesting, none of them on your immediate beat, which is this lawsuit that the station has filed against the Bronx DA's office to release the list of police officers that they keep, who have credibility problems. Just to finish up on that, what happens next with the lawsuit, and in the meantime, how can people who are being brought to court with police officers about to testify against them in the Bronx, protect themselves against lying?

George Joseph: Well, Brian, it's a great question. We're in a really interesting moment right now where over the summer in response to protests, a law known as 50-a was repealed, which was supposed to get rid of the secrecy behind police misconduct records. Right now, this Bronx lawsuit is a test case of whether agencies, in response to that repeal, are going to finally start releasing these records which have been held up because of a police union lawsuit. However, that lawsuit was recently rejected by the Second Circuit of appeals.

Right now, everyone in the city who's interested in police misconduct records is waiting to see if city agencies, including district attorneys, are going to start releasing these records. If they do, all of a sudden there'll be tens of thousands of records on this conduct, including SRG officers, but also including regular officers on the street interacting with New Yorkers every day, which will now become available to residents so they can better understand the department and how it disciplines its own.

Brian Lehrer: Two of our best folks doing accountability and investigative journalism for WNYC and Gothamist, Jake Offenhartz and George Joseph. Thanks for coming on with the updates.

George Joseph: Thanks, Brian.

Jake Offenhartz: Thanks, Brian. 

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