Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. House Democrats have a decision to make, to vote for, or against keeping Kevin McCarthy as speaker. We talked about this in theory on yesterday's show, now it's already coming to a head in reality. Why? Well, Republican Matt Gaetz of Florida, since yesterday's show, has officially called for a vote of the full house on whether to remove McCarthy as Speaker. Gaetz says McCarthy broke faith with his party by making that deal with Democrats over the weekend to avoid a government shutdown.

McCarthy put together, remember, enough Republican and Democratic votes in total to keep the government running, rather than make enough policy concessions to the Freedom Caucus right to not need the Democrats. They'll all be in the same position again. Apparently, with Republican votes alone, McCarthy would now presumably lose his speakership, and an even more conservative member would probably get it, but members of Congress from either party almost never vote for a speaker from the other party. Is that a bridge too far for Democrats today?

How would that even look, or what would it represent to summon their base? We'll see what one rising star Democrat thinks she might do now and talk about other issues too, including her role in helping the US compete for jobs with China, the cost of childcare in the United States and what to do about it, and more. Our guest is Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill of New Jersey, probably the only member of Congress, I think it's safe to say, who holds a bachelor's degree from the US Naval Academy, a master's in global history from the London School of Economics and Political Science, and a law degree from Georgetown.

She served 10 years in the Navy. She was later an Assistant US Attorney in New Jersey. She sits on the House Armed Services Committee and the select committee on strategic competition between the United States and the Chinese Communist Party, as that committee is called. She's also among those New Jersey Democrats calling on Senator Bob Menendez to resign over his corruption indictments, but she says she will not run for his seat. Her 11th congressional district runs from around Montclair and Bloomfield, closest to New York City, out through Morristown, Denville and Dover, going west. Congresswoman Sherrill, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Well, thanks so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Can I cut right to the breaking news chase to start out? Are you considering a vote to help keep Kevin McCarthy as speaker?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I think this is something, I think [unintelligible 00:02:54] Jim McGovern, former chair of the Rules Committee said he's not a cheap date. What we really need to understand is how this would make things better. I think Democrats deeply, deeply want to ensure that we are helping govern this nation, and that includes a budget and keeping our government open, and yet, Kevin McCarthy has proven to be not an incredibly trustworthy person. We saw the debt ceiling deal he had with the White House that almost immediately he negated the terms of that.

I think we're sorting through how can we ensure if he's going to be the speaker, he's held accountable and moves forward in a way that is very different from what he's done to date, including, for me, how he acted in the aftermath of the January 6th attacks, and what he said and did after that. I think we're determining now what has changed, if anything. Otherwise, I don't think Democrats will be there for him if nothing has changed.

Brian Lehrer: What kind of power sharing, which is I think what you're implying, or other concessions, might your party be asking for from McCarthy in order to vote to save his speakership?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I think that is all being discussed now, if any, and I don't think it's very clear that there is any sort of agreement with him that would be comfortable, or that Democrats would feel as if we could trust him to really commit to. I think all of those things are being determined as we speak, if any.

Brian Lehrer: It's interesting that what I'm hearing from you and other Democrats and what I'm hearing from Republicans from both sides are saying Kevin McCarthy can't be trusted. That's exactly what the Republicans are saying, that he committed when he became speaker to what they call the Hastert Rule, that they won't pass anything that doesn't that can't pass with Republican votes only, and he went to Democrats for the stopgap measure on the budget. They say they don't trust him, you say you don't trust him.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: He's not really proven himself to be a very trustworthy person, Brian. Can I just suggest something about the Hastert Rule, because this is what I think is really becoming a huge problem in our country. The Hastert Rule is you don't pass anything without a majority of the majority, and the majority of Republicans just passed the budget or the CR until November 17th.

When people misconstrue the Hastert Rule to mean that you can't pass anything if you can't pass it with your caucus alone when you're in the majority, that to me is giving so much power to the extremists, for example right now in the Republican Party, and really moving away from what the majority of Republicans in the House of Representatives want to do. Make no mistake, this CR was passed with the majority of Republicans in the House, not to mention Republicans in the Senate, Democrats in the Senate, Democrats in the House. I just want to put that out there to the American people, because I do think we're getting to this place where this really partisan toxic place that is impeding the function of the House.

Brian Lehrer: That's a great clarification on the Hastert Rule, and I'm glad you made it. I think some Republicans who I've seen in the press in the last day are misconstruing it to mean something you could pass with your caucus alone, as opposed to a majority of your caucus, which you're right, did vote for this continuing resolution to avoid the government shutdown over the weekend. Well, do you think as someone interested in bipartisanship, if I can characterize you that way, that some longer term bipartisanship might come from a coalition of most Democrats and most Republicans empowering a speaker, as it leaves the most conservative Republicans, but also perhaps the most progressive Democrats from your party behind on some votes?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: That is certainly the hope. I'm not at all convinced Kevin McCarthy is that speaker, but we will see. I think what many of us hope for is to see a better pathway forward. We have seen since January, this continued desire to appease the far-right, the Freedom Caucus, by the speaker. It has led to almost an inability to run the House, an inability to fund the government. If he had continued the path which he had been on until the 11th hour really, we wouldn't have been able to fund the government. I'm hoping that we can come up with a better vision, because I think this will really impact the way we move forward in this country at a critical time.

Brian Lehrer: I would imagine that putting the Democrats in an even tougher position is the prospect that, if you do let speaker McCarthy go down and he's replaced by somebody who is to his right, that there's a pretty large percentage chance of an actual government shutdown when the current stopgap runs out in mid November. Do you think?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I hear from my Republican colleagues about things could get worse, but gosh, it's hard to envision that at times when we see what's coming out of the Republican Conference is really, things like, in the military spending, a travel ban for women, when we see attacks on programs to ensure that we can recruit people across our nation from all different communities and attacking the programs that help officers in charge of our enlisted personnel understand better the people that they're leading. By this I'm talking about diversity programs, and training programs.

When we see an attack on that, when we see an attack on transgender people, LGBTQ people, and when we see a promotion of firearms in areas near schools and on playgrounds and at beaches. We're just seeing an attack on so many of the ways that we need to move forward in this country and I think the majority of Americans agree on what we need to do. I think we'll see what makes the most sense going forward and how Democrats can best support good governance of this nation, but we certainly haven't seen signs that that is what has been coming from Speaker McCarthy's office.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some questions for Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill at 212-433-WNYC, call or text 212-433-9692 on what happens after the vote to avoid a government shutdown for the next 45 days, Ukraine, which we're going to get to, and other military affairs, as Congresswoman Sherrill is on the Armed Services Committee, jobs, childcare, Bob Menendez, and other issues salient to her. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Let me get to some things relevant to your position on the Armed Services Committee. I think you just referred to one of them when you said the Republicans support a travel ban for women. I guess that refers to Republican Senator Tuberville and others who would stop the military from funding women to travel out of state if they're currently serving at a base in a state that has outlawed abortion. Am I putting that right?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Right. Brian, I myself when I served, served in Texas, for example, I did flight training in Corpus Christi and nobody said to me, am I comfortable moving to Texas? Nobody is asking our women service members if they're comfortable moving to a state that now has some of the worst reproductive healthcare in the nation and the bad outcomes to prove it. Nobody is saying to women, "Oh, are you at risk of a difficult pregnancy, are you concerned about different reproductive issues?"

When you are given orders in our military, you go and serve where your nation needs you to serve. For so many of our women who joined over a year ago before Roe was upended, they joined our service with the understanding that they would have these minimal protections in Roe across the nation and now they don't. What the Department of Defense has done to mitigate this problem, because, of course, we want our service members and their families to have the best care possible, has said, "Look, we can't pay for an abortion because of the Hyde rule, but we can pay for your travel, we can ensure you have leave."

That is what Tuberville is now holding up military promotions over, to the point where, by the end of the year, about three-quarters of all generals and admirals will be statutorily required to leave their post. We're looking at not only an attack on national security but really an attack on our women service members and service members' families.

Brian Lehrer: I guess Tuberville's argument from a legal standpoint is the Hyde Amendment is in effect, which bars federal funding for abortion and so the military would be violating the Hyde Amendment and you would need another act of Congress to enable that funding. What would you say to that?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I would say that the Hyde Amendment is already being violated because it does have an ability to get an abortion in cases where the life of the mother is at stake, in cases of rape and incest. To some degree, that falls a little short for me, that argument, but also, we're not paying for abortions. We're paying for service members to be able to seek reproductive healthcare when they need it when the state is failing to provide decent reproductive healthcare. I think that's really critical if you are saying to service members, "Look, you have signed up to serve our nation." I think that our responsibility then as a nation is to provide them at a minimum basic healthcare services.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call going back to the question of who should be speaker next and what the Democrats should do in terms of voting to save McCarthy's job after the bipartisan agreement over the weekend or not. Janet in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Janet: Good morning, Brian. Sorry. I wanted to ask the speaker, why don't they just freeze out the Republicans? There's only about seven of them, and the Freedom Caucus seems to be keeping the country as a hostage. I don't know why they're letting seven people determine the whole future of the country. Also, why don't they make McCarthy make a commitment that he's not going to backstab them, because everyone seems to think that he is very unstable. Most of the people in the country really don't want what these Republicans want, and all the Republicans are saying a stronger military.

We are already spending a lot of money. The things that they want, most people in the country don't want. We want healthcare, we want childcare, women want help, students want things. That's what we want. We don't want a stronger military. We want something at the border. Yes, all right, but we don't want what these Republicans want. Believe [inaudible 00:16:22] We don't want it.

Brian Lehrer: Janet, thank you very much. I'm going to go right on to another McCarthy-related call and then get your reaction to both, Congresswoman. Kevin in Morris Plains, You're on WNYC. Hi, Kevin.

Kelvin: I'll try to eliminate my ire, but who does Matt Gaetz want to be Speaker of the House, and does Matt Gaetz realize that if he changes Speaker of the House, he needs to get democratic support? The last little thing I would-- the two biggest Republicans, Matt Gaetz, Tommy Tuberville. Mikie, if you could chime in on that. I met you a long time ago in Morris Plains, and I'm right behind you, baby, and I hope you-- Sorry for the generic sexism comment, but I'm right behind you and want you to keep running, okay? Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Well, you got a supporter there anyway.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Yes. Well, thanks, Kevin. Always great to hear from Morris Plains. Janet, thank you for weighing in as well. I think you're both raising what we're grappling with right now, because you're exactly right, Janet. Not only is the far-right Freedom Caucus not presenting a path forward on governance and thoughtfulness of where our nation needs to go, but whatever plans they have or lack thereof, it's very unpopular, not just with the nation, but with Republicans in the Senate, Democrats in the Senate, Democrats in the House, and the majority of Republicans in the House.

Why McCarthy, who's in the majority, and that's why this is really up to him, why McCarthy is choosing to go down that path has really been beyond me when there are other paths open to him. I think we're grappling with how we can get to a point where we can have some faith that there is a speaker that is going to hold true to his or her commitments and make sure that we are working for the people of this country and in a way that is going to have impact. It's an incredibly important time for that with all of the changes going on across the country.

Even domestic issues, not just, I would say Ukraine, and my concerns there and funding Ukraine, but domestic issues like childcare, we've just gone over the childcare cliff. Now, luckily in New Jersey, because of great legislators like Senator Teresa Ruiz, for example, we have been thoughtful about childcare in our state and have the money that we put forward and it will last until about June when the school year's over, but other states are going to see the immediate effects of these programs, the childcare stabilization funding running out, which it just did.

We have so much to address across the country, and this type of appeasement to the far-right and the upending from people like Matt Gaetz, who I don't think he has a real vision of where this country needs to go other than creating chaos. Seeing the speaker turn over power to that far-right chaotic group of people and not focus on how this nation's going to move forward has been, I think, very bad for the country and will be bad for the country if we cannot get on a better path.

Brian Lehrer: Can you talk more about what you just referred to as the childcare cliff?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Sure. This is near and dear to my heart because I'm a working mom of four kids, and even though my oldest just turned 18, I can remember like it was yesterday how awful it was to try to come up with a childcare plan, and it has gotten worse since that time. I talk to childcare providers in my district who field calls from desperate parents daily and who have no spaces. What the ARP money has done, the childcare stabilization grant money has done is just stabilized what is quite frankly already a system that is not working for people, but it's kept the childcare centers in place, which is really important because we know that about 40% of kids across the country live in childcare deserts.

It's kept those childcare centers in place. That money ran out at the end of September, so it just ran out. Now we are looking at many of the childcare centers across the nation having to face closure, which is going to be really hard on parents. We've, like I said, in New Jersey, put that money towards a program that will last until June, but again, it really is going to imperil the childcare of so many people. I'm on the childcare stabilization bill. I'm co-leading that to make sure that we can get a plan forward to stabilize childcare, but then I'm also on the childcare for every community bill. I'm leading that in the House along with Senator Warren in the Senate to try to ensure that no one in this country pays more than 7% of their income on childcare.

I had a round table, I was talking to a police officer and his wife's an educator and they were spending more on childcare than they were on their mortgage. Almost half the states across the nation, infant-based childcare costs more than in-state college tuition. That's what families across the country are facing, and having gone over the childcare cliff, this situation is going to become more dire.

Brian Lehrer: The Republicans blocked paid family leave in President Biden's Build Back Better that became the smaller Inflation Reduction Act, but Americans of both parties are feeling that pinch, if they're raising kids, that you just described. I think Americans of both parties generally support paid family leave. Can you break that out, or childcare funding, as you were just describing it, as a standalone and make Republicans either approve it or go into the election year on the record as opposed?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: The Senate could, because Democrats have the majority in the Senate, but in the House we don't set the legislative agenda because Republicans right now are in the majority in the house. Putting legislation on the floor would be up to the speaker and the Republican party, but to your point, I'm looking to find a pathway forward on this because it is a very bipartisan issue, especially in New Jersey. The New Jersey Chamber of Commerce is very concerned about this. The businesses I go to are really concerned because they need a workforce as they expand throughout New Jersey.

It certainly is something that I think is a very bipartisan issue. I am working to find those partners and understand how we can best get this on the floor and pass it, but again, right now we're just trying to keep the government open. When you allow extremists, who I don't think believe in governing and are working to create this chaos, and I think try to undermine faith in our democratic institutions, when that is their goal, and when you have a speaker of the House that has ceded power too many times to that group, you're finding that you're just trying to do the minimum things to keep government open versus really thinking broadly as we did in the last Congress when we were passing things like the Inflation Reduction Act and the CHIPS and Science Act and the bipartisan infrastructure law, pieces of legislation that will change the very way Americans live for the better. Now we're just trying our best to keep government open. It's a marked contrast.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, here's an argument from a listener via a text message for the Democrats not to vote to save McCarthy, listener writes, "Something I don't get in this conversation, how could a representative to the right of McCarthy get enough votes? The current Republican leadership won't vote for such a person, and that alone is below the majority threshold. What am I missing?" Do you agree with that listener's math?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: The listener is saying that McCarthy can't get enough votes because--

Brian Lehrer: No, if all the Democrats are going to vote no for any Republican for speaker, as would be the custom, and the Republicans have to choose a new speaker because they vote to kick McCarthy out, how are they going to get somebody who is to his right, because there are enough "mainstream Republicans" like those who voted for the continuing resolution to fund the government, who won't want somebody from the Freedom Caucus. They're going to wind up with somebody like McCarthy again, they're not going to wind up with a Matt Gaetz, I know he himself is not a candidate, but that there's enough Republicans in the leadership who don't support the hard right. That they won't wind up with a hard right speaker. Follow?

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I hope that that is the case that they will not end up with a hard right speaker. Certainly in my ideal world, someone from the moderate wing, the few that some days seem to be left of the Republican conference, will come forward and somebody that is seen as trustworthy, but I don't know if that is going to happen either. I think all of this is in flux right now, and we're going to have a vote at, I believe, around 1:00, 1:30 and I think we'll see the parameters of this shaping up, and see where we are at and which part of the party Matt Gaetz is commanding. I look at this wing of the party and they seem to be very willing to walk to the brink of taking our country down a chaotic path.

I hope that they have not all painted themselves into a corner with all of their rhetoric because now they're being called to put their money where their mouth is and I really hope that many of them walk back from the brink because they are taking our country on a really bad path. I think that's why we worked incredibly hard and I was really proud of Democrats in Congress this past weekend, coming up and supporting a plan to fund government. That was very reasonable. I'm hoping that we can help come up with a more reasonable plan for the future right now.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, we're seeing a New York Times alert that may have made this whole last stretch of conversation moot. It says, Kevin McCarthy plans a house vote today on his fate as speaker after he ruled out a deal with Democrats to save his job. This dilemma that we've been discussing for you and other members of your party in the House, whether to save McCarthy rather than risk someone further to his right, sounds like McCarthy won't accept your support, so that's that.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I think that was probably somewhat likely in a sense. I just don't think he has the trust of the Democratic caucus for so many reasons. I think he's harmed the country in the aftermath of January 6th and beyond. We'll see where this path takes him. I think it's going to be very interesting. I don't know how this vote will go and I'm very interested to find out.

Brian Lehrer: The McCarthy quote saying he's ruling out a deal with Democrats is being attributed to something he said on CNBC's Squawk Box program. Listener texts this question, would like to hear Mikie Sherrill's comments on Trump's accusation of General Milley that suggests he be executed. The writer identifies as Don from Morris. For our listeners who don't know, General Mark Milley just retired as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Donald Trump posted recently that in times gone by, the punishment would have been death for what Milley did around January 6th, reassuring China that we were not on the verge of attacking them. Here is a clip of Milley from his retirement speech last week apparently referring to Trump when he says wannabe authoritarian. Listen.

General Milley: We don't take an oath to a country. We don't take an oath to a tribe. We don't take an oath to a religion. We don't take an oath to a king or a queen or to a tyrant or a dictator, and we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. We don't take an oath to an individual. We take an oath to the constitution and we take an oath to the idea that is America, and we're willing to die to protect it.

Brian Lehrer: Wannabe dictator. Your thoughts on General Milley in general, who by the way, says he's taking extra safety precautions after Trump's post about being sentenced to death.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: I've known General Milley for years. I serve on the House Armed Services Committee. I'm a veteran. In watching him in the office as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, I saw a real evolution. I think the inflection point really came during the Black Lives Matter protest. There were peaceful protests where the president had people exercising their First Amendment rights. He cleared Lafayette Square with tear gas, had helicopters flying overhead.

He had made a speech at St. John's and then walked through the cleared area with General Milley as General Milley was in fatigues. The General apologized for that because he felt that it sent a military-type signal that Trump was somehow, I think, commanding a private militia or was working to command a private militia. That was what so many of us were concerned about. It was during that time that I started to be afraid that the president was not going to leave office willingly. That was in June.

In a July hearing, I was questioning General Milley and Secretary Esper on their duties to the constitution and trying to ensure that they understood those and had thought about it because they might be called upon to stand against the President, which to a military person, somebody like General Milley who'd served for almost over 40 years, the idea that you would stand against the commander chief of a civilian government is very difficult because you are trained.

One of the first things I learned at the Naval Academy was that we are run by a civilian government. It is never up to the military to govern. We are not a junta, a military dictatorship. For him to realize that was important to me, and I will tell you by that time, just a month later, he answered my questions clearly. Secretary Esper was less clear. Then he said to me, "Look, anything I haven't answered, I want you to submit for the record and I will answer them."

I submitted those things for the record for both Secretary Esper and General Milley and General Milley gave a really fulsome reply to many of them to assure us, the House Armed Services Committee, that he understood his duties under the constitution. I saw an evolution of somebody who was being called by his constitutional duties to support a civilian government, but then being called by his duties to the constitution to stand in the breach on so many occasions. I think he did that.

I really commend him as being one of the first generals-- Now we're hearing from General Kelly and we're hearing from Secretary Esper, but he really, I think, understood in the moment what he needed to do to attempt from the inside to keep the country safe.

Brian Lehrer: One more call before we run out of time. Charlie in South Orange, you're on WNYC with Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill. Hi, Charlie?

Charlie: Hi. I'm a constituent of Representative Sherrill in South Orange, and I know that a lot of us would love to see her in the Senate. I also think she has a very good chance of winning the primary and the general election. I'd like to know why she decided not to run for the seat now and is there a chance that she could change her mind.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Thanks, Charlie, and that is very kind of you. I will tell you, and I think this past week has shown it to be true that we have a real fight on our hands in the House. I think when you see the difference between what the House was able to do in the last session of Congress and what is happening now and the inability to govern by the Republican Conference, I really think that it is imperative that we work to create a better path forward, because, for example, the House is where all spending bills are supposed to be initiated, and we're struggling just to keep the government open.

The appropriations bills are very concerning. I'm about to start-- I'm a member of the conference committee for the Defense Bill, and that's been very problematic. We passed it almost unanimously, just without one vote out of the conference committee, and then it was put on the floor and loaded up with a wish list of far-right extremist agenda items. I think right now my work is here, but I do appreciate the call, and thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Charlie, thank you so much indeed.

Charlie: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill, thank you so much for coming on with us today. We always appreciate it. Interesting times, for better or worse, thank you for addressing so many issues with us.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: As always, thank you for having me. Thanks to all your listeners, and the folks who called in, I appreciate the questions, and have a great day.

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