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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. The House of Representatives just passed a bill to force TikTok's Chinese parent company called ByteDance To sell the platform. If you've been in search of bipartisanship in America, here it is. It was 352 to 65 in the House. The measure would force the company to sell TikTok within 180 days, or risk having the app barred from app stores and web hosting services in the United States. Now, the bill has to next go to the Senate, where it's probably going to face a tougher road, but both presidential candidates have weighed in on the matter as well.

Weirdly, both seem to have changed their positions recently. On Friday, President Biden told reporters, he would sign the measure into law if it passes the Senate this after previously seeking alternative approaches to TikTok. Former President Trump who actually did try to ban TikTok when he was in office is now voicing opposition to the ban. Let's try to explain this now. We have Drew Harwell, technology reporter for The Washington Post. Drew, thanks for coming on this morning. Welcome to WNYC.

Drew Harwell: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Tell us more about the bill itself. What did the House of Representatives just overwhelmingly pass?

Drew Harwell: Yes, this is a force divestiture bill. It would basically force, like you said, ByteDance which is based in Beijing to sell TikTok within 180 days. If they don't do that, the government will start banning-- it will start punishing Apple, Google, and tech companies and saying, "You can't host TikTok on your app stores or your web hosting platforms", and TikTok would have basically no recourse. The bill's proponents have said, "We just want to get the Chinese influence out of this deal. We don't necessarily want to ban it," but the company and the bill's opponents have said, "This is effectively a ban.

You're telling us to sell this giant company within a couple of months, or that will be eradicated from the entire country." It's been a very heated bill, like you said, there's a big bipartisan effort to promote it, but there's also a really interesting bipartisan resistance to it. You have very progressive liberals who are against this bill, you have very far-right hard-right Republicans joining with them and joining with civil liberties groups like the ACLU who are saying, it's odd for a chamber of Congress like they did today to promote such a government punishment of a speech platform.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. If you get the most right-wing members of Congress and the most left-wing members of Congress aligned and a joint minority, is it for different reasons? We talk sometimes on the show about how both the right and the left at the edges are against US military intervention in places, but the left is against it because they think the US is getting over on the rest of the world. The right is against it because they think the rest of the world is getting over at us, making us do their defense. Is there something like that in this, or not really?

Drew Harwell: Yes. Everybody has their own personality quirks, but the big connective tissue is, in America, our First Amendment right is that we can express ourselves using platforms, like newspapers, radio stations, and social media apps. You've seen this libertarian push from the right join in a circular way with the very free speech wing of the left, who's saying, the proper relationship between government and citizens in the US is the citizen decides what they want to be exposed to, what etiologies to embrace, and the government butts out of it.

On both sides, on both the right and the left, they have said, "We don't like that China bans apps in that country. We think that's pretty bad. We don't want to confront the grave challenge of China by becoming more like it." Like you said, it's such an odd battle here in Washington. It's so rare to see these kinds of battle lines be drawn where Trump is joining with the ACLU and Biden is joining with Republicans in Congress, and yet, these issues really go to the core of how we feel about the Bill of Rights and the Constitution and our feelings about social media and China's growth on the global stage.

Brian Lehrer: Can you name any names easily enough, by the way, in this relatively small coalition that oppose the bill? Is it like AOC and Jamaal Bowman on the one side and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz combining forces or do you know any names?

Drew Harwell: Yes, that's right. Marjorie Taylor Greene came out and had a funny in her own-way speech on the floor today where she said, "I was banned from Twitter," which she always loves to remind people of that. "I was banned from Twitter and Twitter is an American company, and now the government is trying to do it on a big stage. Isn't this a slippery slope?" She is joining with like you said, people like AOC and Jamaal Bowman who have said, "This is a speech platform, a lot of young Americans use it, we don't want to be taking it away."

Rand Paul is on the Senate level, he has basically said he's going to block this if the bill ever reaches the Senate and says "I'm for the Constitution, I'm not for the government stomping on on a business." Yes, they're all on the same side of this.

Brian Lehrer: What's the central concern by the 352 members of the House who voted for the bill? Is it that China controls apps in their country and sensors the media in that respect? Or is it that somehow when we do things on TikTok, China is getting our data in a way that they might use against us as individuals or against the United States?

Drew Harwell: Yes, it's a little bit of both. It all goes to suspicion of China. The two prongs of their concern is, one, like you said, the data mining. When we use TikTok or any social app, it gets data on a little bit of who we are, the videos we're sharing, that data is stored by TikTok. TikTok's owner ByteDance is based in Beijing, so there's the fear that-- China over the last decade, has ramped up cyber attacks on the US. They've been gathering personal data for what the federal government says is espionage and blackmail purposes.

Could China use TikTok as a vessel to acquire data on diplomats, military officials in the US and use that against them? That's part of it. The other part of it is the algorithm. When you use TikTok, it shows you the videos, things you want to see, and you swipe past them if you don't want to watch them, or you watch. The algorithm is very important. It's what recommends for you to watch. The fear is that we see how China works domestically. China has a great firewall, they block a lot of what people can see.

Living in China, it's very hard to learn about real historical events like Tiananmen Square, the Uyghurs, and all of these horrors of the Chinese Communist Party. They feel like, "What's to stop China from manipulating the algorithm in a way that Americans feel worse about their own country or don't learn the reality of China?" Both of those parts are often brought up and they're both based in, again, just a fear of China and how they could manipulate TikTok to their own ends.

Brian Lehrer: I've read some reporting that indicates, and tell me if you can confirm this, that China is actually doing that already, that algorithms are feeding us things that do drag the United States, but they won't feed us things that will point out China's alleged genocide against the Uyghurs as you point out and other things that are bad about the Chinese government. Whereas if we're on some other social media platform and we have the same inputs, the algorithm sees us for who we are, it would give us those things about the US and China more equally. Is that a confirmed fact?

Drew Harwell: It's not confirmed. Actually, that is the big question mark. If you go on TikTok right now, you can search Uyghurs or Tiananmen Square and see truthful videos right now. In other words, you could go on to TikTok in the US and see a whole bunch of videos that China would probably rather you not see. Now, when it comes to the algorithm because we're just seeing the output of it, it's hard to say, "Would I be seeing more videos about Tiananmen Square if there wasn't some secret influence behind the scenes?"

From the federal government side, they have said, "We really worry that this could happen down the road, who knows what will happen in future elections," but the evidence for that happening right now is not clear. We don't have evidence of China meddling in the algorithm. TikTok for their part says China doesn't meddle. That they don't have any government influencing the algorithm. Some of these fears came to a head after October 7th, when people were seeing a whole lot of pro-Palestinian videos on TikTok.

They felt like they were seeing a lot fewer pro-Israel videos on TikTok. There were fears that couldn't China just be behind the scenes trying to steer the American populace to feel some way about this conflict in a way that would be geopolitically beneficial to China? I think the reality check on that is that the other platforms, including very American platforms like Meta, which owns Facebook and Instagram, you see a lot more pro-Palestinian videos on those as well.

When we go to these platforms, whether we agree or disagree with the content, are we seeing those because that's a reflection of what people are posting, what people are choosing to engage with, or because there's some shadowy manipulaor behind the scenes?

Brian Lehrer: Chinese influence. Certainly one could guess on the pro-Palestinian video dominance, that TikTok-- because it's used so predominantly by younger people, that that's who feels strongly about that, that's in the protest movement but that's just a theory that may or may not be true. That seems one plausible explanation. TikTok users, let us hear from you on this. I want people who actually use TikTok to feel particularly invited to call in right now, specifically invited. If you use TikTok, give us your impression of what the algorithm feeds you.

Do you fear China having your data more than you fear Google or Facebook or X having your data, and anything else you want to say in support or opposition to this bill that would force the Chinese parent company of TikTok to divest because they're too close to the Chinese government? TikTok users, we want to hear from you. How do you use TikTok? Because you know, folks, there are a lot of people in this audience who've never been on TikTok, and they're like, "Oh, TikTok, that's gross." Maybe it is gross but you tell them, all right, if you actually use TikTok.

What's gross about TikTok? What's great about TikTok? TikTok users, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, and how do you feel about this bill with Drew Harwell, technology reporter from the Washington Post. As if you're just tuning in, the House of Representatives just overwhelmingly passed that bill to force that divestment. Otherwise, it would be banned in the United States if the Senate goes along and the president goes along. Here's a clip of Nancy Pelosi who voted for the bill saying that it's not a ban.

Nancy Pelosi: This is not a ban on TikTok. I'm a grandmother of teenagers. I understand the entertainment value, the educational value, the communication value, the business value for some business on this. This is not an attempt to ban TikTok. It's an attempt to make TikTok better. Tic-tac-toe. A winner.

Brian Lehrer: [laughs] TikTok. Tic-tac-toe. If Joe Biden said that, they would say he was having a senior moment. Here's a 45-second clip of New Jersey Democrat Frank Pallone on the national security risk he voted for the bill too.

Frank Pallone: Big tech has transformed social media platforms into modern-day media companies. Unfortunately, these networks engage in invasive surveillance practices by collecting Americans' most sensitive personal data. Foreign adversaries also see access to Americans' data, communication networks, devices, and applications as the entry points to disrupt our daily lives and conduct espionage activities. All of this endangers our national security interests.

We have a long history of restricting our TV and radio airwaves from ownership by foreign governments and individuals due to the national security concerns that these arrangements pose. Social media companies should also face similar scrutiny.

Brian Lehrer: New Jersey Congressman Frank Pallone there. Oh, you think Brian Lehrer Show listeners aren't TikTok users? Don't call in now because all our lines are full. Gregory in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Gregory.

Gregory: Hey, Brian. How are you doing today? You listen, I am a TikTok user, and I'm not afraid at all. I don't see the concern for my personal data being mined or anything like that any more than I would-- I'm more afraid of Elon Musk and the new X trying to use my stuff than TikTok.

Brian Lehrer: What do you use TikTok for? Just curious.

Gregory: Basically, I have my own small business and I post videos of my bow ties and my bags on Twitter. I used to be on Twitter, I'm on Threads now and Instagram and all the meta places that I do it. It's a small business place. Listen, if somebody wants to steal my stuff and get people in China buying my bow ties, I'm all for that.

Brian Lehrer: Gregory, thank you very much. Patty in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi Patty.

Patty: Hello.

Brian Lehrer: Hello.

Patty: I love TikTok. Hello?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, go ahead. Because?

Patty: I love TikTok because I think it brings around worldwide people. There's people from all over the world that you can watch. There's a lot of live programming on there, and you see people from different cultures, people that would be considered freaks have followings of people that really love them. They probably wouldn't get that anywhere else. I find it very relaxing. There's things like tapping on there. I think it's really good. I think all the social medias take too much of our time, but I don't know why they would single this one out, even if what they say. I don't know.

Brian Lehrer: I'm curious, Patty, do you also use Instagram and have any comparison? A lot of videos there, too, obviously.

Patty: No, I don't use Instagram hardly at all. I also like Twitter so I'm in the hardcore mode.

Brian Lehrer: Patty, thank you very much. Two fans there. We're not trying to be a commercial for TikTok. We're just trying to hear your experiences. Kelly in Astoria may have a little more suspicion. Kelly, you are on WNYC, hello.

Kelly: Hi, good morning Brian. I do have some suspicions but unfortunately, my suspicions are more towards the companies who could possibly be behind the scenes lobbying Congress to ban TikTok because they've taken so much of their business like your Zuckerbergs and your Elon Musks. To use data collection as a reason for the ban seems crazy to me because the data has already been collected. We found that out when Zuckerberg was on Capitol Hill. We already know that. The data has been collected. It is out there. We're never getting it back. It seems like more--

Brian Lehrer: I apologize to our listeners because I thought you were saying, "Oh, you see the data collection already happening on TikTok, so you're suspicious of the Chinese government." You're saying it's already happening by the American tech giants. Is there a difference to you, though, if the Zuckerbergs, as you say, or the Musks have our data to use for commercial purposes than if the Chinese government has to use for geopolitical purposes?

Kelly: If you're going to separate geopolitical and corporate greed, then I guess there is a difference there. It's all dubious, in my opinion.

Brian Lehrer: Kelly, thank you very much. Neil in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Neil.

Neil: Hi, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: Okay.

Neil: A few weeks back there were tens of millions of views, videos in support of Osama bin Laden. I think it was a really good example of how TikTok has been pushing radical ideas more than any other platform. It seems to be indoctrinating people in a way that Twitter or Instagram has not. It's also clear that the algorithms for TikTok users are calibrated differently from the US versus Chinese users. I guess the question here is why isn't the discussion about how much of a national security threat TikTok is and how it is again, pushing violent radical views.

Brian Lehrer: Neil, thank you very much. That is a lot of the conversation. Drew Harwell, Washington Post technology reporter, that Osama bin Laden video did make the news. He's been dead for over a decade but suddenly there's this Osama bin Laden video that went viral on TikTok. Is it maliciously distributed by the Chinese government in a way that would flood our own TikTok algorithms if we're on TikTok differently than any other social media platform? Is this an allegation? Is it proven? What's the larger context of that Osama bin Laden video?

Drew Harwell: Yes, that was the theory. This happened back in November some videos basically saying that Bin Laden's letter to America, in which he justifies killing people in 9/11. That they were saying, "Oh, this makes some great points." They were really disturbing videos, certainly, from people who were a little ignorant about the reality of it. The people who shared those videos on TikTok had very few followers, and the videos were actually really not seen all that much on TikTok. I know because I did a story on some of this.

It didn't really become a headline-grabbing event until a couple of people started taking those videos and putting them into Twitter compilations and then sharing those. That's when they really hit virality. You can actually see in the TikTok data where the hashtags that had videos about the Bin Laden letter to America had a couple hundred views on TikTok, a couple hundred videos, there were a million views but they really didn't gain that viral spread until they were posted onto X, which was Twitter.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting.

Drew Harwell: This was an interesting instance because of course your view on this matter was very dependent on how you felt about TikTok to begin with. People who didn't like TikTok and felt it was a threat saw, this is China at the wheel steering us into this anti-imperialist view and manipulating all the minds of all these young impressionable TikTok users. Whereas people who were more supportive of TikTok said, this is a speech platform. People say things we disagree with. Anybody can pick up their phone and say things into a video.

Is something that is posted on a couple hundred videos on TikTok, one, does that merit banning the whole platform to begin with? Free speech can be a yucky affair. There are plenty of websites with things we disagree with, but we don't say we should ban all websites. Just became like October 7th, the Israel-Gaza videos, it became this big geopolitical mess that had some conspiracy theories involved and had some suspicions around TikTok that were really based on your prior views.

Brian Lehrer: One more call as we get to our last topic on this, and that is the presidential campaign context where apparently Biden, who was for TikTok is now against it, and Trump who is against TikTok is now for it. What, but Roger in the West Village is going to talk about that. Roger, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Roger: All right. Thank you, Brian. I saw on MSNBC, I believe, reportedly that as usual, Trump changed his view because a head executive at TikTok either made a contribution to the RNC or set up a fundraiser for Trump so that he can look for ways to obtain a reimbursement of his legal fees.

Brian Lehrer: Roger, thank you. Fact check that Drew, is that the case? Give us the Biden and the Trump story before you go.

Drew Harwell: The Biden story is that he's been questionable of TikTok for a long time, except that his reelection campaign joined a couple of months ago. The White House has welcomed TikTok influencers. They've briefed them on the Gaza war. They see it as a valuable tool in the coming election. Biden's been a little bit all over the map. He has said he would sign the TikTok for Sale bill if it gets to him, but it may not in the Senate. Now with Trump, it's interesting. He kicked off a lot of this fur around TikTok back when he was president.

He pushed a force of sale or to ban it. He was rejected by federal judges who say, "Sorry, government, you need more proof than this to step on people's free speech rights." Then he basically dropped it. I actually talked to a Trump aide a couple of years ago who said, Trump, he never really cared all that much about TikTok. He saw it as red meat for China hawks, who supported him. He was upset. You may remember at the time there was this Tulsa rally that a bunch of TikTokers basically trolled him by signing up for seats and then not going.

It was an embarrassment. He also saw the poll numbers at the time that said, "If you ban TikTok, there are going to be a lot of young people in suburban moms who are going to hate your guts and not vote for you." Trump is very self-interested, as many politicians are, said, "I'm going to drop it." In the last couple days, last week when he said on Truth Social that banning TikTok would basically be a big gift to Facebook, who he hates even more. People saw, "Wow, this is a big reversal."

They connected the dots to there's a big ByteDance investor named Jeff Yass who runs the Club for Growth, very libertarian tea party donor on the right. He had met with Trump recently. There's been some talks of funding. They saw, okay, this is clearly a pay-for-play. He's changed Trump's mind, but I actually think the reversal is not as sudden as we may see. I think maybe the Yass connection is clear. As also should be said Kellyanne Conway of the Trump team is also now lobbying for ByteDance in D.C. It's such an interesting battle line here.

I think Trump doesn't like Meta. He feels like Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg are out to get him. They stole the election from him. It's baseless of course, but this is what he believes. He feels like the enemy of his enemy is his friend. Again, Trump is not alone on the right in saying this bill goes too far. It's interesting to see Trump come out like that. It'll be curious whether he sticks to his guns. This is a guy who's not exactly known for commitment to principle. Is he going to stay defending TikTok if this matter goes to the other side of Congress, or is he just going to move on?

Brian Lehrer: By the way I saw that on the TODAY show this morning, they said Kellyanne Conway told Trump that, "You're popular on TikTok now," and maybe that had something to do with it just as he was popular on Twitter in the past. All right. There's the breaking news folks. The House of Representatives I should say, has overwhelmingly passed this bill that would ban TikTok this morning in the United States if the Chinese parent company ByteDance doesn't divest. It's got uncertain prospects in the Senate, however.

Trump and Biden are both all over the place on this. We thank Drew Harwell technology reporter for the Washington Post for jumping right on it. Drew, thanks.

Drew Harwell: Thank you.

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