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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning everyone. After President Biden's State of the Union Address last Thursday, he started on a campaign trip to four swing states, Georgia, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and Michigan. He sat down for a rare one-on-one televised interview with Jonathan Capehart, Washington Post associate editor and host of their podcasts Capehart and First Look, also a Saturday and Sunday MSNBC host and Weekly Regular on the PBS NewsHour in their Brooks and Capehart segment with David Brooks from The New York Times.

I don't know when Jonathan sleeps. He'll join us in a minute. The exchange that has most broken out as newsworthy from that post-State of the Union MSNBC interview was this. When Jonathan asked the president if he has any red line for US support for Israel and Gaza?

Jonathan Capehart: What is your red line with Prime Minister Netanyahu? Do you have a red line, for instance, would invasion of Rafah, which you have urged him not to do, would that be a red line?

President Biden: It is a red line, but I'm never going to leave Israel. The defense of Israel is still critical. There's no red line I'm going to cut off all weapons so they don't have the Iron Dome to protect them. They don't have-- but there's red lines that if he crosses and they continue-- you cannot have 30,000 more Palestinians dead as a consequence of going after--

Brian Lehrer: President Biden with Jonathan Capehart on MSNBC last weekend. Jonathan joins me now to talk about that and more. Jonathan, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jonathan Capehart: Hi, Brian. Great to be back. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: That exchange first, did you understand it because it confused me. It was kind of red line on launching an assault in Rafah, but no red line when it comes to any consequences if Netanyahu were to do that. How did you hear that as you were sitting with the president and as you thought about it later?

Jonathan Capehart: Actually, I wasn't confused by it because what you need to understand is, the way I asked the question, I was making a distinction between the president's support for Israel and the president's support of its prime minister, knowing full well that the president supports Israel, but also knowing about the tensions between himself and Prime Minister Netanyahu. I was trying to get at how deep are the tensions. In that answer, what we got was, as you just played, the president saying, I'm never going to leave Israel. I'm never going to do anything that would leave its defenses harmed. Which he has made clear.

I added in, would a red line with Netanyahu be an invasion of Rafah, military actions in Rafah that might be approved by Netanyahu, which he had been signaling for a long time, Netanyahu on the invasion, and the president and the administration signaling to Netanyahu, not signaling, saying flat out, that would be a bad idea. To get him on the record saying that, yes, an incursion and invasion into Rafah would be a red line with the prime minister I thought was something very interesting to get on the record. Where you have a good point is he did not say exactly what the consequences would be.

Quite honestly, if I had done a follow-up and asked, what exactly would the consequences be, I doubt I would've gotten an answer simply because-- it's one thing to say, I've got a red line. It's another thing to say exactly what you would do in response. Maybe you're still confused, maybe others are confused, but for me, getting that answer was very illuminating

Brian Lehrer: I agree he probably would not have answered that follow-up question. That's exactly what's frustrating to so many people concerned about the pace of civilian deaths in the war in Gaza, that Biden keeps escalating his rhetoric regarding what he disapproves of that Netanyahu is doing there, particularly in that respect, how much civilian deaths they're willing to accept for what kind of military success in Gaza. There never seemed to be consequences. The words seem to many people to be meaningless and empty. The protests continue wherever Biden goes because he says these things, but he doesn't do anything.

Jonathan Capehart: He says these things, and to use your words, he doesn't do anything until which time he does. I think as you say, the escalation in rhetoric, given how from the president to the vice president to the national security advisor to the secretary of state, how they've been much more vocal and much more public in their criticism of Netanyahu and laying down these warnings, it says to me that if he does indeed crossover into Rafah, does what the president and the administration have been warning him not to do, that I do think we will see there will be consequences.

Again, we don't know what those are and we don't know how broad they will be or how limited they will be. I think if Prime Minister Netanyahu does go ahead and invades Rafah, the international pressure on Israel and on Netanyahu, the domestic pressure here at home on the president and the administration to do something will be inexorable, I think

Brian Lehrer: That's interesting. That's a prediction that's very interesting that you think if Netanyahu does go into Rafah that then there would be consequences. Maybe that's why Netanyahu hasn't gone into Rafah yet, because according I think to what Netanyahu said a few weeks ago was imminent. Whether or not he used the word imminent, it was coming very soon as the impression that he gave and it hasn't happened.

Jonathan Capehart: Right. I'm glad you pointed that out because I was going to point that out. Also, we are in the Muslim Holy Month of Ramadan, and so all eyes now are on Netanyahu and even more so on Rafah and what he may or may not do during this time. It is very interesting to see. Oh, one other thing, Brian, let's not forget how interesting it was that a member of Netanyahu's war cabinet, Benny Gantz, came to Washington in defiance of Netanyahu a week ago meeting with the vice president, meeting with Jake Sullivan, the national security advisor, and then after leaving Washington, heading to Europe and having meetings with European leaders, again in defiance of Netanyahu. We also have to keep that in mind as we watch what the prime minister does and doesn't do with regard to Rafah in the days ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Did you get any sense reporting from Washington there what the Benny Gantz meeting produced, if anything? Was it just the symbolism of a rival to Netanyahu meeting with officials in the United States, or did anybody say anything or do anything or link arms with him in any particular way that's substantive?

Jonathan Capehart: If I remember right, I remember seeing a report that the vice president and the national security advisor pressed really hard on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the need for humanitarian aid to get in. Again, that is from-- I am trying to remember where exactly I read that, but that was definitely part of the conversation. That is a concern of the administration, as we heard in the clip that you played where the president said, we cannot have another 30,000 Palestinian deaths.

Brian Lehrer: That's part of the complexity. They're trying to figure out how to limit civilian deaths when the fighting does occur. They're also trying to get humanitarian aid in, and by they, I mean, at least president Biden and his allies. He's doing airlifts and building that pier now off of Gaza, although the aid organization say that's going to be a drop in the bucket, and they see that as more symbolic than actually relieving the hunger there and need for medical supplies in a significant way. Did you get any sense from the interview or in any other reporting you've done, what Biden feels he can do next regarding Gaza other than hold this unspoken threat of consequences over Netanyahu?

He's got a temporary cease-fire on the plan that Hamas won't agree to, so not to let Hamas off the hook here. He's got Netanyahu ignoring Biden's own sense of right and wrong. Is he feeling powerless as probably the most powerful person in the world as president of the United States to start bloodshed or get the Israeli hostages returned? NPR reports 80 to 100 Gazans are being killed per day in the fighting, even as they hold off on going into Rafah, and it's five-plus months in captivity for the hostages.

Jonathan Capehart: I don't get the sense that the president feels powerless. I asked the president about the negotiations over that potential ceasefire deal. They were hoping to have a deal in place last Monday. They were hoping to have a deal in place before the start of Ramadan. Neither has happened. When we did that interview on Saturday, the president said he was optimistic. He pointed out that the CIA director was in the region still trying to pull, get this deal done, still talking to people even though Hamas had left the negotiating table in Cairo.

I think we have to remember that President Biden is someone who was vice president for eight years, in the Senate for 36 years, on Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He knows all of the players who are about his age, maybe a little younger, and has gotten to know all the younger people, younger leaders on the world stage. I think that the president is somebody who is not going to tell me, a journalist, what he's up to, what plans he's looking into. I don't get the sense that he feels powerless. I get the sense that he's trying to pull all the levers, pull out all the stops to try to get to some agreement between Israel and Hamas and in the region to bring about some form of peace.

I think there's a lot of people who are looking at, well, why a six-week ceasefire? Why not a permanent ceasefire? From the administration's perspective, their thinking is, if you get a six-week ceasefire, that the hope and the intention is to build on that six weeks so that it becomes 10 weeks, then it becomes 15 weeks, then it becomes 20, then it's on its way to being permanent.

One other thing, Brian, and I'm not sure if you were going to play this, so I might be superseding you here. There's one other thing, a question that I asked the president where his answer I thought was very interesting, and this was on the notion that I've heard a lot here in Washington of people suggesting that the president go back to Israel and going back to Israel to speak to the Knesset, to speak to the Israeli parliament. By doing that, speaking directly to the Israeli people. When I asked him, is that something he would do, he said yes. Didn't say anything--

Brian Lehrer: Then didn't commit to doing it or not doing it. You're right, I keyed on that same thing, and I did pull that clip, so I'm going to play that. Just what you were describing, and then we'll talk about it. It was not something that made a lot of news, I'll say before we play the clip, and maybe because he refused to answer the question at the end of the exchange. Here it is.

President Biden: After what happened in World War II and the carpet bombing that took place, what happened was we ended up in a situation where we changed the rules of the game, constitutionally legitimate rules of war and they should be abided by.

Jonathan Capehart: Some have suggested you should go back to Israel and address the Knesset, the Israeli parliament. Is that something you would do?

President Biden: Yes.

Jonathan Capehart: Would that have to be at the invitation of the prime minister or could that be at the invitation of the president?

President Biden: I'd rather not discuss it more.

Brian Lehrer: Huh. Can you read between the lines of his not wanting to discuss that?

Jonathan Capehart: Yes. That moment took me by surprise for two reasons. One, as we all know, President Biden likes to talk. In fact, before the interview started, he said to me, listen, if I get to going on and talking too long, just interrupt me. It's okay. I'm serious. Just interrupt me. For me to ask that question and for him to say yes, and I'm glad you played it through because you could hear how long the pause was as I tried to figure out, whoa, wait a minute, he just gave me a one-word answer, yes. That's why I asked, okay, so then who would invite you? Is it the Israeli prime minister or is it the Israeli president?

For him to say, I don't really want to get into that right now, said to me, oh, so you are talking about this. This is within the realm of the possible, and you don't want to answer it because you don't want to give anything away. To me, that is something I'm keeping my eye on, and that could also be a game-changing moment. If the president of the United States goes back to a country that is at war to speak directly to the Israeli people about a situation that their very unpopular prime minister is waging.

Brian Lehrer: Right. Their prime minister is unpopular, but from the reporting on Israeli polls that I've seen, the war is still popular. Meets with high approval, even though people are conflicted about fighting the war in this way means delaying getting hostages back. It's complicated. Can you imagine him actually doing that? That would be pretty extreme, right? You were right that various people have been calling for him to go over Netanyahu's head and address the Israeli people directly. The New York Times editorial board for one specifically called on him to do that. Can you even imagine it? Imagine if, I don't know, some foreign leader who was ostensibly an ally of the United States, came here and gave an address before Congress that threw the American president under the bus on their key policy item of the times. Can you imagine it?

Jonathan Capehart: Yes, I can, because it's happened when Prime Minister Netanyahu was invited to Washington by the Republican speaker of the House when President Obama was in the White House. There is president for that, but the Israeli prime minister does not have the power on the world stage that the president of the United States has. If invited and given the opportunity, I can imagine President Biden going back to Israel and doing such an address because this situation is so dire and so desperate, and it would speak to just how much the president wants to do whatever it takes to reach a resolution that would bring about a ceasefire for however long that would release the hostages that would calm the tensions in the region. I can totally see him doing it. All that's needed is an invitation.

Brian Lehrer: Speaking of an invitation, people are calling in to talk to you, Jonathan, and I want to invite others who don't already have the phone number in their heads. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text for Jonathan Capehart from The Washington Post, MSNBC, and the PBS NewsHour. I think to the point you were just making about Netanyahu actually did that, came to the United States and threw the sitting American president under the bus in a speech before our Congress, Aziz in Manhattan, I think wants to pick up on exactly that. Aziz, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Aziz: Hello. Good morning. Brian, first of all, I'd like to apologize to you, Brian. I called like two months ago, and I was saying that you were being biased. You're just calling pro-Israeli on the show. You did correct me that day, you told me. No, that's not true. I'd like to apologize to you, first of all. Number two, I think that--

Brian Lehrer: That's so nice, by the way. Thank you very much. Very few people ever apologize to anybody, never mind on talk shows. I'm trying to be balanced and give a fair shake to everybody in this complicated situation. Anyway, thank you for that. Go ahead.

Aziz: Thanks. Now, I watch your demand show, and I'm sorry, but I'll say he's being naive because I think everything that Biden told Netanyahu not to do, he already did it. He went over all the way to Israel and told him not to do what they did in Afghanistan. What are they doing right now? They're doing worse in Gaza. Number two, he's telling Netanyahu to open the door for aid to get in Gaza. What is Netanyahu doing right now? He's not allowing aid to get in Gaza. Number three, he's telling Netanyahu not to invade Gaza, the next day in Fox News, Netanyahu is saying that, I'm going to go into Gaza.

Everything that Biden is telling Netanyahu, he is already doing it. He is defying it. He told him not to invade Gaza and he did it. Sometimes, I think Israel has something on America than America has something on Israel because the whole world is telling Israel, don't do this, and they're doing it. 30,000 people already died. What is left there for Biden to say to this guy, this is enough. Stop the war. For me, I would never, ever vote for this guy called, not Joe Biden, but Genocide Joe because America is complicit in this war. America is complicit in this genocide. On one hand, they're dropping aid, and another hand, they're giving weapon for them to kill these innocent civilians.

Brian Lehrer: Aziz, let me just ask you a quick follow-up on the political statement you just made about never voting for him. If it actually comes to Trump versus Biden versus sitting it out in November, with sitting it out increasing the likelihood that Trump would be the next president, would you sit it out?

Aziz: Listen. For me, right now, nobody could tell me to vote for Biden. I don't care if Trump wins or not, because I'm not going to reward someone that I voted for to put him in office to kill my people. Then you tell me to reward this person again and put him in office. With all the shady things that Trump did, there was not one war that broke during his time being president. This guy right now, we got Ukraine, we got Gaza, two times war in Gaza. This president is not-- especially five months.

Brian Lehrer: Sorry, I know we have a lot more people waiting. Do you not think that Trump would give a blank check to Netanyahu without even the pressure that Biden's putting on him to do whatever he wants?

Aziz: He already proved to us right now during his presidency that there was no war. At the same time, nobody would blackmail me to say that-- for me to vote for Biden after what he has done. I would never reward this guy. Whatever Trump will do. I'm in Biden's presidency right now. He showed me who he is and I would never reward him after killing my people and vote for him to be in a second term in Office and [inaudible 00:22:57] me. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Aziz, thank you very much for your call. I appreciate it and I think we're going to get a different point of view now from Leon in Brooklyn. Leon, you're on WNYC with Jonathan Capehart. Hi.

Leon: Good morning, Jonathan. I have a question for you. The $30,000 number.

Brian Lehrer: The 30,000 deaths number. Go ahead.

Leon: Supposed deaths that you're getting from the Hamas industry or the Hamas medical offices. Do you really believe that number, Jonathan?

Brian Lehrer: Leon, you know that President Biden accepts that number. He stated it in the State of the Union address. Does that convince you that it's real?

Leon: Absolutely not. I'll tell you why that number doesn't convince me, because Egypt and Jordan on both sides have closed their gates, unlike America that has their gates open. How come nobody's saying anything about that? Hamas that burned babies, that cut pregnant women open. You saw the video, so obviously it's real. It's not something that's been made up. How come Jonathan is not saying anything about either side of Gaza being closed?

Brian Lehrer: Leon, thank you. I don't know. Closing the border is a different question. I know listeners all acknowledge there's debate about which atrocities Hamas actually committed and which ones they didn't commit, but we will stipulate October 7th was full of many, many horrible atrocities. Jonathan, to Leon's question

Jonathan Capehart: Look, I think you answered Leon's question in terms of whether to believe that 30,000 deaths the president of the United States said in the State of the Union address. He said it in the clip that you played in response to questions from me. I want to go back to Aziz on a couple of things. I do not discount his anger and his upset, his rage about the deaths of Gazans, the deaths of Palestinians, 30,000 plus.

I can understand exactly where he is coming from. I understand that, yes, the United States and the President have been telling Benjamin Netanyahu not to do X and he does it anyway, not to do Y and he does it anyway, not to do Z and he does it anyway. I think that is why you are seeing and hearing and amped up pushback from the president and others within the administration against the prime minister to get him to do right by Gazans.

Just as we're talking here, news is breaking that Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is calling for new elections in Israel, saying that Netanyahu has "lost his way". That just hit within the last five minutes. He's giving a big floor speech. The pressure from the United States from all quarters, the international pressure on Netanyahu to wage this war in a better way, and I don't know how you wage war in a better way, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say, is mounting.

On the political question that Aziz raises where he says he won't vote for Biden, he doesn't care if Trump wins or not, whatever Trump would do is nothing compared to what Biden is doing. To that, I say that is wildly irresponsible. I'm sorry. I understand the anger and the upset over the President supporting Prime Minister Netanyahu and all the things that come with it.

Anyone who becomes such a single issue voter, that they are willing to put American democracy on the line and put the livelihoods of millions of Americans on the line, the freedom of millions of Americans on the line, our democracy on the line is just not something I can countenance. I can't get behind that, I'm sorry. As an African American with our long history of betrayal and upset and everything at the hands of the United States government from 1619 through today, to put all of that in jeopardy over upset with Biden and getting a second term of Donald Trump, no thanks, no way.

I cannot support that whatsoever. For anyone who thinks I'm doing the persecution Olympics, I am not doing that. What I'm trying to say is I'm pulling way back and trying to look at this with a wider perspective. Anyone who cares about what's happening in the Middle East, what's happening in the Israel-Hamas war, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in Haiti and Somalia, the future of the European Alliance, has got to pay attention to what Donald Trump is saying he would do in a second term.

He likes Putin. He likes Kim Jong-Un. He likes Orban of Hungary. These are not democratic leaders. These are not leaders for whom freedom and democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of dissent, are things that they cherish. As we know from four years of a Trump presidency, neither does he. We are at a moment in this country where the American experiment and everything that comes with it is on the line. Fine, don't vote for Biden, but if you are willing to then risk a Trump presidency, then heaven help you and heaven help us if he succeeds in getting another term.

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, before we go to a break and then come back and take more calls and play another very relevant clip, thank you for watching your notifications go by even while doing this interview to know that Chuck Schumer was doing the very thing that we were just talking about, really with respect to Biden potentially going to Israel to speak over the head of Netanyahu, directly to the Israeli people. Schumer's doing it from the Senate floor. How rare is that for the Senate Majority Leader of the United States to call for new elections in another country? Because Schumer sees it as in everybody's interest. So unusual, right?

Jonathan Capehart: It's very unusual, and then you have to add on-- I mean, this is laden with symbolism. Remember, Leader Schumer is the first Jewish minority leader in the Senate and is the highest-ranking Jewish official in the United States.

Brian Lehrer: Certainly a staunch supporter of Israel over many, many years in many, many ways.

Jonathan Capehart: Right. This is huge that Majority Leader Schumer is doing this and saying this.

Brian Lehrer: Now, Hamas is a player, too. The caller, Leon, who made his number of points, I know he also wanted to say, he had told our screener but he didn't get to it, that-- he's concerned about how do you ever get to a ceasefire with Hamas, because Hamas won't release the hostages. It's not in their interest to release the hostages. When we continue in a minute, folks, with Jonathan Capehart, I'm going to play another clip from a different interview that he did with a member of Congress, who calls on Biden and Netanyahu to call Hamas' bluff. Stay with us for that.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer, on WNYC, as we continue with Jonathan Capehart, Washington Post associate editor and host of their podcasts, Capehart and First Look, also a Saturday and Sunday MSNBC host, and weekly regular on the PBS NewsHour in their Brooks and Capehart segment with David Brooks from The New York Times on Fridays. Takes half the show just to say all the things you're doing, Jonathan.

Jonathan Capehart: Apologies.

Brian Lehrer: We've been talking mostly about Jonathan's one-on-one interview with President Biden on MSNBC last weekend. I want to play a clip from another interview you did, this one on your podcast, or one of your podcasts, I'm not even sure which one, with Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna of California. He's calling on Biden, here, to accept Hamas' negotiating position of a permanent ceasefire as long as it's in exchange for all the hostages. Congressman Khanna explains why to accept Hamas' call for a permanent ceasefire.

Congressman Ro Khanna: That sticking point, though, is that the negotiators from Hamas are saying they want a permanent ceasefire. They want at least four and a half months. Bibi has not gone past six weeks. My view is that the administration should call for a permanent ceasefire with a release of all the hostages, in part to call Hamas' bluff.

If Hamas is not willing to do it even if the ceasefire was permanent, we know that they are acting in complete bad faith. The excuse they're making is, or the rationale they're giving is, they want longer than six weeks, because they don't want the bombing to resume right after Ramadan.

Brian Lehrer: That was really interesting to me, Jonathan. As you see, I'm listening to your stuff, I'm not just watching you on television. Did you get to ask Biden about that approach, calling Hamas' bluff for a longer ceasefire, agreeing to a longer ceasefire, as long as they actually release the hostages?

Jonathan Capehart: I did not get a chance to ask the president that direct question. It is clear to me from what we've been seeing and what's been reported, and I think I mentioned this maybe in my first answer, is that at a minimum, what they want to do is just get an agreement where ceasefire is in the agreement. If it's six weeks, great, and then hope that you can build on it. I do think that, ultimately, that what the administration wants and what the president wants is a permanent ceasefire, but I think both sides are so seemingly intractable that there seems to be, perhaps, a foot-in-the-door strategy. The fact that Prime Minister Netanyahu agreed to six weeks is that foot in the door.

I see the merits of what Congressman Khanna is saying, why not call Hamas on their bluff? The only problem is, will Hamas actually follow through? I don't know if there's any trust among on the part of the prime minister, or on the part of the president and the American administration that Hamas would actually follow through.

Brian Lehrer: Kitty, in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Jonathan Capehart. Hello.

Kitty: Hi. Jonathan?

Jonathan Capehart: Yes.

Kitty: Kudos to you. You were trying to help the president disentangle his commitment to the survival of Israel, from his alliance now with far-right Bibi Netanyahu and people who are totally opposed to the sovereignty of the Palestinian people and their right to a homeland. Thank you. That's what the president needed to follow up and be clearer in his response to you. He supports Israel and its survival. You may fund an Iron Dome, but you don't fund bombing of young babies in Palestine. Thank you, Jonathan.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. I'll go right to Bruce, in Westchester, next. You're on WNYC. Hi, Bruce. Bruce, are you still there? Bruce Wance?

Bruce: Yes, he is. Sorry, I was on mute.

Brian Lehrer: That's okay. Hi.

Bruce: On mute. Sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Bruce: Let me gush for just one second. It's such a privilege to be able to ask questions of two of my most favorite people on the planet. I have been a big fan of both of you for many, many years. Jonathan, never missed you on Friday night. Anyway, two questions. One is, it strikes me from just the behavior of the Israeli electorate, and the fact that it has supported this right-wing government [inaudible 00:36:46] into power, in effect that the faction of Israeli society that has drifted away from the old image of Israel as the socialist homeland, has gotten to a point where it will never accept a two-state solution.

It doesn't matter what the international community thinks, the Israeli people, and therefore, the Israeli government simply won't accept a two-state solution. If that's true, what do we do? The second thing is, or the second question is, if I were responsible for Israel's security, it would be a stretch for me to be in a position to say, now that we have disrupted Gaza in the way we have and there may be a humanitarian crisis, but in crisis, obviously always opportunity, that the Israeli people may see the current situation as the perfect opportunity to simply push all of the Palestinians out of Gaza and retake that as part of Israel.

Brian Lehrer: Which wouldn't settle the West Bank situation, but Bruce, thank you for that question. Jonathan, we know, I think, that some radicals in the Israeli government are calling for what would amount, as far as the Palestinians are concerned, to a second Nakba, like 1948, pushing many Palestinians out of their current homes, whether it's in the West Bank or in Gaza. That's not a mainstream Israeli government position, not even a Netanyahu position, but it is very hard to see how either side comes to yes on the eventual two-state solution because of the way they are intertwined in the West Bank because of the fact that Hamas promises to try to destroy any Jewish state as long it exists at all anywhere on any land. How the heck do they get to yes? I think that's beyond the scope of this segment.

Jonathan Capehart: Right. Bruce, thank you very much for your kind words and for calling in. It boils down to, and I think you touched on this just a second ago, in the two-state solution, who runs the Palestinian state? That is a sticking point, because as long as Hamas is in the picture, it's going to be untenable to Israelis and to the American government as well, considering what Hamas has said. They want to do October 7th over, and over, and over again. The overall position that has been articulated by the the president and the secretary of state is the only way to get beyond this and get to peace in the region eventually, is to have a two-state solution.

From this, where we sit right now, it seems like an impossibility, but we've seen impossibilities before. I think that a two-state solution is something that the United States is committed to, as long as Joe Biden is president of the United States. I think it's something that we all should push for because I think that's the only way we can get to a place of peace in a region that hasn't seen it, particularly since October 7th.

Let's not forget that one of the theories about why Hamas struck when it struck was because Saudi Arabia and Israel, with the help of the United States and others in the region, were about to come to a big agreement that would have normalized relations and would have set things on the path to a two-state solution. It is clear that that's something that Hamas doesn't want. The big sticking point is if there is to be a two-state solution, who would be in charge? Who would run the Palestinian state?

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan, we've spent almost all our time on Biden and Gaza after an interview with the president last weekend. Because we've been getting so many calls, and we have so many people, I apologize to all of you who are not going to get to, because we're going to run out of time. I did want to talk about some other Biden things, so let me stretch you by just a couple of minutes to throw in one thing that's not Gaza, because I noticed that you and David Brooks talked on PBS last Friday about the importance of campaigning on policy, not just Biden denouncing Trump as an authoritarian wannabe or otherwise unfit. Here's one more moment from your interview, where the president seemed to make reference to that.

President Biden: Where I come from, it's all about what happens at the kitchen table. Doing the things that matter. It matters if you're getting ripped off by a bank at a $35 fee for a late charge when they're only allowed to charge you what it costs them to fix it. That's why we moved it to $8. It makes a difference to billions of dollars to banks and the major lenders, but guess what? It's the $100 or $200 a month or a year for a small family. My dad used to say, it's what you have at the end of the month that gives you a little breathing room. We got to give the American people some breathing room. There's much more I'm going to do.

Jonathan Capehart: Mr. President speaking of the campaign trail, you got to get out to it, so thank you very much for this interview.

President Biden: Oh, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: That was obviously the very end of the interview. We did a segment yesterday on Biden, the economic populist. Those parts of the State of the Union address didn't get so much coverage, because of the back and forth with Marjorie Taylor Greene on migrants and stuff like that. I think the same thing after your interview, there was so much focus on what he said about Gaza and Israel and red line that that moment, and others like it, where Biden the policy wonk, Biden the economic populist, didn't break through in the post-interview coverage. How much do you think he is running or should run on domestic policy?

Jonathan Capehart: He is. One of the criticisms of the president was that you don't have any wins on the board. Well, first, it was what makes you think you're going to get anything done with the Republican Congress that doesn't believe in bipartisanship anymore? Between the American rescue plan, the infrastructure law, the debt ceiling law, all sorts of things, he has been able to put policy wins on the board that have very real implications for the American people. Now, instead of just solely relying on Donald Trump as a threat to democracy, and we've got to keep him out at all costs, it's not an either-or, it's a both-and.

Donald Trump is all those things, but at the same time, look at all the stuff that I have done and here they all are from the late charge bank fees things and capping the price of insulin and all of that to all the things that he would want to do in a second term. You've got to give people something to hang on to, you've got to give voters a reason to vote for you that goes beyond the emotional. Donald Trump being a threat to democracy is emotional. Capping the price of insulin, doing something about late fees and junk fees, and shrink fraction, and all those populist things that he talked about, both in that clip and during the State of the Union address, are tangible things people can latch on to and point to, and potentially use as a reason to give him another term.

Brian Lehrer: Jonathan Capehart from the Washington Post, the PBS NewsHour on Fridays, and MSNBC on the weekend. They moved it to the nighttime, right?

Jonathan Capehart: Yes, 6:00 PM.

Brian Lehrer: 6:00 PM Saturday and Sunday. You used to have this really, really good slot, a really good time to do talk shows about policy and the world 10:00 AM to noon on Sunday.

Jonathan Capehart: Yes. Hey, that was three years ago.

Brian Lehrer: I know.

Jonathan Capehart: Six o'clock isn't bad, Brian. It's good.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, it's primetime. I think they did it because you're succeeding. Jonathan Capehart on PBS, on MSNBC, and The Washington Post and their Capehart and First Look podcasts. Thanks for coming on and spending so much time with us after your Biden interview.

Jonathan Capehart: Thanks so much, Brian.

 

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