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Brian Lehrer: Yes, that's not The Brian Lehrer Show theme. You all know that's Rhapsody in Blue. Doesn't it sound like a lively day in New York City? Hearing Rhapsody in Blue feels like rising early for school or work, pushing through the crowd on the subway platform, looking up at the skyscrapers reflecting white clouds on their mirrored windows. It also captures the sounds and feelings of strife in this city as you listen to the horns, loud horns honking, chaotic confrontations in the street, the unwell and unhoused going without care.

While all of these images are incredibly New York in nature, some point to the city's vitality, while others show its decay. What makes a vital city? Why do I ask that question right now? Well, as it happens, Vital City is the name of a new policy journal founded by leaders in the public and nonprofit sphere seeking to answer these questions. They've recently conducted a survey of prominent New Yorkers, politicians, nonprofit heads, venture capitalists, even me, to determine the signs of a vital city.

With us now to discuss the results of this survey and hear your input about what makes a vital city and to talk about the aims of this journal is Vital City founder Elizabeth Glazer. She is a former director of the New York City Mayor's Office of Criminal Justice, also oversaw criminal justice agencies at the state level as a deputy secretary to the governor's office, and she's a former federal prosecutor and clerk for then U.S. Circuit Court Judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Elizabeth, welcome back to WNYC. Hi.

Elizabeth: Great. Thanks so much, Brian, for having me. Appreciate it.

Brian: Before we lay out the question for our listeners, the name of the journal is Vital City. Tell us what it means for the city to be vital as you see it and how that relates to the purpose or the name of the publication.

Elizabeth: Sure. I think New Yorkers are fierce about what makes New York New York. It's a kind of electricity and hum and a connection to one another and a vast diversity of people and things. Really what Vital City is all about is it started as trying to figure out what makes our city safe, which goes well beyond police, and really is the question of what makes a city thrive and it's its people and it's its services, and it's the way all those things come together. We try and find the best ideas that there are out there and then translate them in a way that both policymakers can implement them.

A lot of times, great ideas are written almost literally in Greek and also try and lift up facts about how the city operates and what's going up for every New Yorker. It's deeply a democracy-building project, and mainly we are rooted to facts. We have an old-fashioned attachment to them, and we hope that we're going to walk through the raindrops of what has become increasingly polarized conversations, certainly in public safety, but more generally about civic life.

Brian: Vital City conducted a survey amongst New York's community leaders from a variety of sectors on what they point to as a sign of a thriving city. Can you frame the exact question? We'll go over what a few different people said, and we're going to invite our listeners to call in and answer the same question. Can you state it and just give the context for it for our listeners right now?

Elizabeth: Sure. We asked people in slightly different ways, "What is it for you that defines a vibrant and safe city or a vibrant and safe neighborhood?" Because those two things are sometimes different, and it came out of this notion of a lot of times, and mostly we measure bad things, how many murders and shootings and thefts?

There's enormous positives that are the pulse beat of the city that measure its electricity and its magnetism, and I think we all felt that absence during COVID. How can we figure out a way to measure both the tangibles and the intangibles, not in a treacly home suite home way, but in a way that taps into the city's pulse?

Brian: Listeners, we'll bring the survey question to you. What are indicators New York City, or any city for that matter, is thriving? Oppositely, what have you seen in a city that indicates failure? Would you say New York is currently thriving or failing or what kind of mix? Give us a call at 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. What makes a safe and thriving city? How would you answer that question? What makes a safe and thriving city? 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. For Elizabeth Glazer, founder of the new journal called Vital City, 212-433-9692.

Elizabeth, I guess a common theme running through many of the answers is public space. Is it being occupied? By whom, and whether it's in good condition. Some examples given by survey respondents include abandoned lots transformed into gardens, how many people are riding the subway after 10:00 PM, block parties, murals. Why do you think thriving public space is so central to a thriving city and the responses you got?

Elizabeth: I think that's the heartbeat of the city, people who want to go out in public space. New York City is a great walking city. We're out all the time. When the streets are occupied, when parks are occupied, when the subway is crowded, believe it or not, people feel safer. That came through really strongly in the survey and all kinds of different activities that indicate our links to one another, really weak links and strong links, things like how many cookouts are there? Do you have a Scout troop in your neighborhood?

Are there PTA meetings? As you mentioned, are they gardening? There were a lot of things that were totally intangible, but which make up the taste and feel of a city. Then there were incredibly concrete things that people had. Is the garbage picked up? How many theater tickets get sold? One that I thought was really fascinating that came from a person who heads up an immigrant rights coalition was how many street vendors are there on the street? To her, it was a sign both of the diversity of people who make up the vendors. Also, it was a sign of whether workers are coming back to Midtown or other business districts, whether tourism is up.

You can have this one thing that has multiple different signals, and I think there were other things that I found really striking. More than one person said, "For me, a sign of safety and vibrancy would be that there are no police on the street," which runs counter to, for example, how right now the mayor is trying to push down subway crime, and cops are much more visible. Quite interesting that some people think that when there are no police on the street, it indicates that all these informal connections that keep us safe are stronger.

Brian: That's really interesting, and I'm going to read my own response to the question as you published it, and I picked up on the word safe. I know you meant to be provocative with the word safe when you asked what would describe a vibrant and safe city, and so I said, "You asked a question about how to measure a vibrant and safe city. My answer begins with defining safe broadly. It's not just safe from street crime, but safe from food and housing insecurity, and finally safe from the hundreds of years of systemic inequality."

Then vitality, the vibrancy you asked about, "Vitality will bloom a thousand ways along with safety as traditionally defined." It looks like you are after that kind of thing, what makes a safe and vibrant city? Well, people may feel safer right now in the subway is because there's a big police presence. At least some people feel safer because of that. Other people might feel more threatened, but you were looking for that big think about the word safe, weren't you?

Elizabeth: For sure. You're very much singing the Vital City song which is, we've gotten used in the past couple of decades that when Americans think about being safe, the go-to is flood the zone, send in the police. For sure police have a very important role to play, but there's incredibly great evidence, both just our common experience and then a ton of research about the other things that make you safe.

First, and the main what makes you safe are the million and one connections that we have to one another, family and neighborhood, all those informal expectations that make us behave, more or less. Then there are incredibly tangible things that you can do that have to do with civic life. Lighting, for example, reduces felony nighttime crime by 36%. It's something that happens instantly without police. Why? Maybe because it invites people into public space for other kinds of activities.

Summer youth employment reduces violent crime risks by 45%, and it reduces mortality and not just in a generation, right now. These are things and there are a bunch of other examples. These are the kinds of things that have immediate effects and why it makes it so important to think about our city, our vitality as a whole, not just cabin to police, prosecutors, courts, importance though those are, but how do we deploy all these civic services in a braided way to make us safe not to have a Stepford city, but to have a vibrant city.

Brian: Let's see how some of our listeners are answering the question, "What makes a vibrant and safe city?" Jim in Crown Heights, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jim.

Jim: Oh, hi. Real quick. I walked my dogs two or three times a day and particularly in the morning, and I go out of my way to always say good morning or hello to my neighbors. Some of them, I don't know their names, but I go out of my way to say hello to strangers. I'm surprised by how many people are happy to hear it and say good morning back. That makes me feel safe.

Brian: Jim, thank you very much. Noamee in Washington Heights, you're on WNYC. Hi, Noamee.

Noamee: Hi, good morning. I just wanted to share my thoughts on what makes a safe and vibrant city. Just thinking about that, the youth involvement, how does that look like, and what is their perspective and input? I think that that weighs a lot into the dynamics of what makes the city safe since we have a high crime within our youth, unfortunately. How can we get them more involved into what the budgeting process is? How can their voice be heard? Just really involving them in civil engagement, I think would make a turn for what we truly are seeking. A safe and vibrant city.

Brian: Noamee, thank you very much. "Youth input on policy," she says, contributing to a safe and vibrant city. Jess in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jess.

Jess: Hi. How are you? I heard some conversations about light. I also agree with that. If children can walk to school by themselves. Also, if there's the storefronts are filled and not vacant, that makes things safe that you could walk down a certain block and not feel like you should avoid it if the buildings or the houses are closed up. Also, if there's lot's of trees and flowers around and tourists and street vendors, I agree with all those things. Also, street fairs and just people being able to walk about where they want and see things that are colorful and not drab. That's my comment.

Brian: Jess, thank you so much Larry in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hi, Larry.

Larry: Hey. Hi. Thanks to Ms. Glazer for everything she's talking about. I just wanted to say, I think all of that theater tickets, gardening, lights are just meaningless. If we are as we are becoming a city where nobody can afford to live except rich people. Nobody. With the median rent hitting $4,000, I just looked it up for even one-bedroom apartments in New York, it's insane. There will be no diversity. Poverty will increase, crime will increase. This overrides everything. Nothing else matters until we can solve that problem. We're not a vibrant city. We're in a death spiral.

Brian: Thank you, Larry. Hold that thought in your head, Elizabeth, because I want to come back to Larry's call in just a minute, but let me take one more in this set on what makes a vibrant and safe city. Brigitte in Manhattan. You're on WNYC.

Brigitte: Hi.

Brian: Brigitte, hi. Turn down your radio.

Brigitte: Thanks for taking my call. As I was telling the screener, I love walking in New York. I walk a lot, more than six miles a day sometimes. I just walk everywhere because it's faster anyway and very pleasant. I feel safe in New York. I've always felt safe, even though I came in 1980, I never felt in danger. I've been attacked, but I survived. It did not stop me. Twice I've been attacked at night in 1980 and in the '80s.

Brian: Did your feeling of safety being outdoors decrease over the last few years when we've seen the rise in the street crime statistics?

Brigitte: Yes, definitely. It did not increase. It stayed the same. I learned to be streetwise. I learned to look around to have eyes beyond my head. I always careful, but that doesn't stop me from feeling, breathing. I feel comfortable. I would feel very uncomfortable if there was a war, that would be horrible. I think about it all the time where everything all of a sudden would be destroyed or under [unintelligible 00:16:42] fire taking--

If I have a fear, it's that, to have either a war or fire engulfing my house, or losing everything. As I was saying, I love the vibrancy of the city, the art world, et cetera. The great movie theaters, the art movie theater in this. What I don't like about New York is the noise from day one since 1980.

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Brigitte: I couldn't believe. I can't take the noise. The clinging metal, that was the first thing I noticed in 1980 and it's getting worse. The People honking now, I'm getting older and it makes me jump and the noise is unbearable. The second thing is people are loud too, they scream all the time. They don't speak, they scream.

Brian: [laughs]

Brigitte: When I went to Paris last year, everything was so soft. Even the voices are very soft because the way you speak French, it's soft. It's not a high-pitched language, so that is a problem.

Brian: Brigitte, thanks. I'm going to leave it there. Thank you very much. Well, Elizabeth Glazer, I think that was a very interesting set of calls.

Elizabeth: Very much so.

Brian: I wonder what you were thinking, listening to Brigitte right there, not afraid of walking the streets, even in a so-called high crime area. You just have to be streetwise in New York, and Larry before him saying, let's focus on housing, things will flow from that.

Elizabeth: I think these were fantastic calls and I think it really highlights how complicated city life is and how much there are these different vectors. Of course, housing, a good education, clean parks, all of these things go to the heartbeat of a city. They're all things that government has to and is focusing on significantly.

I would push back on the notion that what our callers have highlighted like youth engagement or walkability, or any of these other things, that these are also key parts of what make a city safe and what make a city vibrant because they speak to people's engagement in city life and all of the things that connect us that ultimately do make us safe and vibrant. Larry is absolutely right. We have to address some of the economic issues that are significant, facing us.

Brian: Let's do one more short set. Is it Trisha or Theresa in Brooklyn? You're on WNYC.

Trisha: Oh, hello, you guys. It's Trisha. According to the UN study on livable cities, bird song is a number one indicator of human health, both mental and physical. If we just build everything for the birds, no more lot line construction where we're literally cutting off corners so people can't stand to talk. No little pocket [unintelligible 00:19:47] having to maintaining old trees, like keeping our old trees in place. No more lights that the AMA said were horrible that the de Blasio administration put in that contribute to horribleness places for people. Be quiet. Say hello.

Brian: Trisha, thank you very much.

Trisha: Thank you very much.

Brian: It would make our previous caller Brigitte happy too, a bird song instead of all those honking car horns and stuff were the dominant sound. Gregory in Harlem, you're on WNYC. Hi, Gregory.

Gregory: Hi, Brian, always good to hear you, man. Hey, listen. I live in Harlem and I live right across the street from Morningside Park. There's no better park to walk in. I think it's about neighbors and neighborhoods because I live in a great and iconic neighborhood, about two blocks away from the Apollo. There are things here and people speak to each other, we know each other, even the new people who have moved in, they get it right away.

One of the most vibrant avenues in New York City is Eighth Avenue right here between 125 and 110, which leads you right to Central Park, by the way. It's just great to live here, and I live in one of the best precincts. It's safe here, because of the 28th Precinct. Another thing I was going to push back on is we're seeing beat cops again, and I love that. I grew up with that. That's real.

Brian: Interesting. Happy about your local police. Gregory, thank you very much. I think Clyde in Brooklyn has a very different take from that, right, Clyde? You're on WNYC.

Clyde: Yes, indeed do. I feel like if you don't know your neighbors, then you probably know 911. I think that's a real big problem. I think it's very important to know your neighbors. That's where most of your safety comes from. The other thing I believe is that we don't need to defund the cops, and I don't think we need to remove them entirely. I think it would be a good idea to disarm them, which would give them a natural disposition to disarm others that shouldn't have done this--

Brian: Interesting. Clyde, thank you very much. One more. Grace in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Grace.

Grace: Hi, Brian. I have to say this, long-time listener, first-time caller.

Brian: Yay.

Grace: [laughs] I came to New York in 1999 for summer school, and I was in Alphabet City, which had definitely changed from the '80s and '70s. Growing up in Texas, suburban area, very safe, sheltered, I had never felt safer until I was walking throughout all the hours in New York City because it was so diverse, so rich. You said hello to everyone who was sitting on the stoop. I know we're going through a different phase right now, but I still think New York it's the safest city I've ever lived in. I just love it.

Brian: That is great. Grace, thank you very much, and comparing it to Texas. As we run out of time, Elizabeth Glazer, I'll let you react to that last set of calls. Tell everybody also how they can see your new journal Vital City. I want to say that one thing that we didn't get to with you today that I wanted to get to was that I see you've been writing very interestingly about what to do about Rikers Island, in Vital City.

I want to invite you back before too long and talk specifically about that, but give us a closing thought after launching Vital City on this question of what makes a vibrant and safe city, and also hearing our listeners weigh in on your question.

Elizabeth: Great. This has been fantastic. Your listeners' ideas as always are so thought-provoking and tap into a lot of ideas. If there's anybody who didn't get a chance to do that, you can send your ideas to info@vitalcitynyc.org. We're online as well. Ultimately, we're hoping that Vital City can help to promote vibrant cities, and we're very optimistic about the future of cities. Hopefully, the journal expresses our love of New York and cities around the world.

Brian: Founder of the new journal Vital City, Elizabeth Glazer. Thank you so much for involving us in this and sharing it with us.

Elizabeth: Great. Thank you, Brian, and to your listeners.

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