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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Tonight, our theater, The Greene Space, will host Josh Sapan, a veteran media exec and a member of the Board of Trustees of WNYC. Until 2021, Josh in his day job was CEO of AMC. No, they won't be talking about the age of prestige television in The Greene Space tonight. Maybe a little, but mostly about pursuing passions, hobbies, and dreams later in life. Josh is now the author of a book about that exciting stage of life, retirement age to some, but for others, that word retirement just doesn't quite feel right. The book is called The Third Act: Reinventing Your Next Chapter. It comprises mainly of profiles of people who've had interesting or illustrious careers and gone on in their later years to do cool things or reinvent themselves almost entirely. Some of those people are household names, Jane Fonda, Alan Alda, former poet laureate Billy Collins, Dolores Huerta, George Takei from Star Trek, and Gloria Steinem, to name a few, others like Betty Taylor are world-renowned. Taylor was elected to serve on the Eugene, Oregon City Council at age 70, and served on the council for the next 24 years. Talk about a third act. All are impressive in their own right.

We thought we'd preview the event at The Greene Space by having Josh on with us and taking some calls from you on your third acts, however eclectic they are. Listeners, especially if you're over, let's say, 60, or retired from your career, what types of new experiences have you actively sought out? Professional, volunteer, hobby, whatever. What do you consider to be your third act that might inspire others of our listeners. What successes, even failures, or inspirational moments have defined this stage of life for you? This is for you. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. As your calls are coming in, joining us now is Josh Sapan. Hey, Josh. We've talked-

Josh Sapan: Hey, Brian. How are you doing?

Brian Lehrer: - off the air, but never on the air.

Josh Sapan: Yes indeed, and thanks so much for having me. What a treat.

Brian Lehrer: When does one's third act begin? How should we define that stage of life?

Josh Sapan: I guess it's perhaps a little bit chronological, as you indicated, but maybe more about whenever the big change happens, whenever you go from what was life's work to next thing or whenever you change, take a big left turn, or a big right turn. I don't think there's an absolute defining age.

Brian Lehrer: By way of background, do you want to introduce yourself to our listeners a little more and say a few words about how you thought of retirement when you reach that point, and leaving AMC and creating your third act?

Josh Sapan: Sure. Pretty simple and straightforward. I worked in the media business at AMC Networks for 36 years, 25 as the CEO. As the end came in sight, I thought, "Oh, gee, what next?" I was listening to your earlier conversation and the wonderful verbatim, if I had it right, of Richard Nixon and references to checkers. I just will say that was just a wonderful amusement. As I thought about what I would do next, I was not always amused, I thought, "Oh, gee, how do I make this not golf and not Florida and not a lounge chair?" I began to just observe and to admire both those well-known, as you mentioned in your intro, and those unknown who were doing a radical take, if you want to call it that, on what conventional retirement might be considered, and jotted down some thoughts and then ended up writing a book which profiles some 60 of those people.

Brian Lehrer: Some examples from the book, Ellen Weiss, who some of our listeners know was the former head of NPR News, went on to volunteer with the National Park Service, Mary Frances Berry, the veteran civil rights activist. Well, I think she continued to organize for civil rights after she ended her paid career. Maybe, listeners, you've explored the arts like the elevator repairman turned PhD, turned actor, George Shannon. Do you want to tell his story a little bit? You familiar enough?

Josh Sapan: Yes. Just what you said, it's pretty straightforward, elevator repairman, turned, he went to school and got super educated, and if that wasn't enough, became an actor. A woman there tonight, it's another anecdote like that, a woman named Hope Harley who had a career at Verizon. When she grew up, she talks about, in Brooklyn, loving the Brooklyn Children's Museum in her childhood and later, and observing that the Bronx was the, I think this is right, only burrow not to have a children's museum. She led the initiative to open the Bronx Children's Museum, which began with a touring bus. It wasn't a real museum. She was indefatigable, and it opened its doors in the south Bronx a few months ago. I was speaking to her about this, and she seemed remarkably, I'll use television terms, ready for prime time. Just incredibly comfortable. We were in front of cameras. Afterwards I said, "Gee, you really seem very familiar with television," and she said, "Well, when I retired, I also took up acting classes, and I've been doing theater work for the last seven years, doing summer-stock every summer." Then, I went home and my wife said, "Yes, she's in a lot of commercials that I see on television." There's a whole bunch of wrinkles I guess one can have in their third act. Some are ernest, some are socially impactful, and some are just an awful lot of fun.

Brian Lehrer: Let's sprinkle in some listener third acts. We'll keep sprinkling in some more examples from the book. Jack in Rockland County, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jack? What's your third act?

Jack: Oh, hi, Brian. Several times caller, long time listener. Thank you for taking my call.

Brian Lehrer: My third act is I'm a personal trainer right now. I retired some years ago from the US Marines, and then I went into fitness equipment sales for about 20 years, and then I got certified, and now I'm a personal trainer here in the area. Now I'm so busy that I have to turn down clients. I work about 20 hours a week. I have about 10 clients. It's a great third act. I would recommend it for anyone who has a passion for fitness.

Brian Lehrer: How do you get trained to be a personal trainer?

Jack: Well, there's several different ways. There's the American Council of Education, ACE. There's NASM, N-A-S-M, and then there's ISSA. What I did, I went online. Most community colleges offer personal training certifications, but I did my online with the International Sports Science Association. It's generally about a six-month process. You have to write some essays and learn about anatomy and you had this case study, that kind of thing. Then, once you get certified, you have to be certified by the American Red Cross in CPR, and then you go looking for work. You can either start at a gym. That's probably the best way to do it, go to a local gym and sign on there and use their equipment and train clients. Of course,-

Brian Lehrer: There you go.

Jack: - the gym will take half of your earnings to pay for their overhead, but that's how I got my start.

Brian Lehrer: Jack, thank you very much. I think that's very interesting for a lot of people because so many people have experience with personal trainers in gyms and elsewhere. Now we know how they get certified. Now you can ask for their documents when they say they know what they're doing. Phil in West Orange, you're on WNYC. Hi, Phil.

Phil: Hi, how you doing? I also I'm a long time fan, and thanks so much for taking the call.

Brian Lehrer: Sure.

Phil: I began my career when I was 16 years old. I'm almost 66 now. In the interim, I also was an agency founder, a creative agency founder. I've worked in more than 30 countries all around the world. Within the past year, I founded a record label. In addition to releasing my own album, which was in the works for more than two years, I've produced five additional albums as well, which have found favor with a couple of award-winning journalists that have helped to promote the label. I am also continuing working as a consultant. I'm a principal in a management consulting firm. I'm busier now than I've ever been, and I could not be happier.

Brian Lehrer: That is awesome. Why a record label in this era where it's hard to make money, as I understand it, as a recording artist because of Spotify and everything?

Phil: Absolutely. The purpose in founding the label was actually as a way for me to be able to express my gratitude to the artists and to the mentors, the musical mentors that I had over the years, which provided the training for me, not only to be able to develop my musicianship, but also in terms of being able to develop my ability to be perceptive, which has helped me tremendously in terms of my business career. I really do believe that that training, the intersection of my creative pursuit as well as my business acumen is what's given me the ability to be successful in both.

Brian Lehrer: That's really interesting. Phil, thank you so much for your story. Maybe that's one that you as a former TV executive want to comment on, Josh.

Josh Sapan: I just love the story. It's so pleasing to think about someone wanting to emancipate artists and connect their business capability with creative judgment and bring-- I think he said his age was 66 if I heard it right. That's quite an age to begin a new initiative like that. He sounds like he's having a ball. I'm only filled with admiration. I don't know quite what else to say. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Anne in Staten Island has an unusual one, I think. Hi, Anne, what's your third act?

Anne: Hi. Thanks for having me. Longtime listener. My third act, probably more than that, but I am currently facilitating a homeschool group outdoor learning forest school.

Brian Lehrer: Forest school?

Anne: It's a child-lead forest school. Yes. It's not officially a forest school;like the training in the UK, but we use their handbook to get how we're going to do it. We've been doing it since September. The children spend the day outdoors in the forest and pick up bugs and ask about rocks and run around and dig holes and mostly mud. It's just a joy. It's what I was born to do.

Brian Lehrer: Beautiful. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Any example in the book, Josh, where somebody goes on to teaching later in life after not having been a teacher in their first or second acts?

Josh Sapan: I think so. If I may, I was just struck by connection to the outdoors, forgive me,-

Brian Lehrer: Please.

Josh Sapan: - you mentioned Ellen Weiss, who was a longtime editor, writer, investigative journalist, and is hanging out at national monuments outdoors at the Lincoln Memorial, and another guy who said, "I did it for the hat." He was a corporate executive and became a park ranger to be outdoors. I was just struck by people finding beautiful connection with nature later on. I'm thinking about teaching there. I'm sure there are many who taught but they're not coming to mind. Not Dolores Huerta, somebody else. There's teachers in here somewhere, but they're not coming to mind immediately, forgive me.

Brian Lehrer: Give me another example of a celebrity one, like I see Gloria Steinem is in the book. We've had Gloria Steinem on the show really like not that long ago still at her age doing what we think of her as doin, which is advocating for women. What's Gloria Steinem's third act?

Josh Sapan: Yes. Well, it's interesting, the chapters. I'm going to answer on Gloria Steinem. I'll just mention Robert Redford first if you don't mind because he seems like he's been a movie star, and is a movie star. He was a painter early in his career, and obviously, then an actor on stage in New York, then in Hollywood. Then, the first movie that he directed was Ordinary People. Then, along the way, became an activist and environmentalist. That's probably four and a half or so acts. In the case of Gloria Steinem, I think she was a journalist perhaps before being an activist. I think one would have to define the three oddly because her upbringing, what she writes about in her books, traveling in the back of her parent's car in an itinerant manner is some piece of curiosity, but certainly, journalist-activist are two big ones on top of a very curious emergence.

Brian Lehrer: One more. Kevin in Weehawken, you're on WNYC. Kevin, we've got about 30 seconds for you. Hey there. What's your third act?

Kevin: Sure. Hi. Well, my third act is as a visual artist. I began as a librarian in my 20s in the New York Public Library. I then wanted something more fulfilling, so I went into the Roman Catholic priesthood and pursued a vocation there and worked as a librarian at a Catholic Research Institute in Jerusalem mainly known for working on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Then, I found that really wasn't a fit, so I left, came back to the States, and now I'm a visual artist. I had to do a day job as a medical editor as well, but I'm really pursuing a vocation in art.

Brian Lehrer: Wow. Librarian, priest, artist. That's some three acts, huh, Josh.

Josh Sapan: [laughs] I'd say that hit the jackpot. Yes.

Brian Lehrer: [chuckles] In our last minute, tell people what kind of an event you're going to do around this around this book and around these ideas of having a third act in your life at The Greene Space tonight.

Josh Sapan: Oh, yes. I would invite everyone to come down. I'm a trustee and I've made a donation, so it's pay what you will, but I've made a donation to cover anyone who wants to come for free at 7:00 PM at The Greene Space on Charlton Street. I'll be interviewing three new yorkers about their own third acts and how that impacts New York. I mentioned Hope Harley who opened the Bronx Children's Museum, a hero of mine, David Rothenberg, who was a theater guy both as a producer and an agent, and then founded the Fortune Society, which I'm a volunteer at, and works with people previously incarcerated, and theater brought him to that, and Joe Lhota, who was deputy mayor and the head of the MTA who's now leading a hospital. I'll be interviewing those three people.

Brian Lehrer: The event is at The Greene Space tonight at seven o'clock. Pay what you decide to as you heard. Josh Sapan is author of The Third Act: Reinventing Your Next Chapter. This was so much fun to do a little of it on the radio with you. Thanks a lot, Josh.

Josh Sapan: It was wonderful. Thanks so much.

Brian Lehrer: That's The Brian Lehrer Show for today. Produced by Mary Croke, Lisa Allison, Amina Srna, Carl Boisrond, Esperanza Rosenbaum. Zach Gottehrer-Cohen produces our daily politics podcast. Our interns this term are Trinity Lopez and Briana Brady. Shayna Sengstock is at the audio controls.

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