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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Did you pay your rent yesterday? Yesterday was the first of the month. We know that many of you are still unemployed, obviously. If you did not pay your September rent, we invite you to call and let people know your situation and what you'd like the government or your landlord to do about it, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. There is national news on this front last night, we got word that the Centers for Disease Control under President Trump issued a directive to extend eviction relief for certain renters until the end of the year, December 31st, in an effort to slow the spread of coronavirus. Now that's what it came from the CDC so we'll try to explain that, that this has to do with slowing the spread of the coronavirus, as they're concerned, not just slowing the spread of economic desperation and homelessness. The CDCs wording only protects certain renters, such as in regulated units among other qualifications that we'll go over now. Joining us to discuss the new federal protections and to take questions on your rights as tenants in this uncertain time, as well as your personal stories. If you didn't pay the rent yesterday, tell us why not, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280 with Judith Goldiner, attorney in charge at the Legal Aid Society's Civil Law Reform Unit. Judy, thanks so much for coming on with us today. Hi.

Judith Goldiner: It's always a pleasure, Brian.

Brian: Can you explain the CDC eviction protections, who's covered and who's not?

Judith: Sure. Although this acknowledges how horrible the evictions would be and how horrible evictions would be in the health crisis we're in, it unfortunately it doesn't go far enough. It requires tenants to produce a sworn declaration to their landlords that says certain things. It says that they've tried to get government help, that they have income of less than $100,000, that they can't pay the rent due to their income loss or extraordinarily out of pocket medical expenses, that they would become homeless or be doubled up if they're evicted and that they will pay their landlord as much as they can, take into account their other expenses, and that they are obligated to pay their rent and comply with their lease. It requires them to acknowledge that they owe all the rent and that they can pay it as of the first of the year. It doesn't cover in any way, people who are sued in what we call holdover cases, as opposed to non-payment cases. Not to get too technical about this but the reason why that's important is for a lot of tenants in both New York City and elsewhere in New York State, they don't have current leases and they're not protected by rent regulation or other laws. For those tenants, nothing is stopping their landlord from suing them in what we call holdover and you can get evicted for that. We have been calling for both the governor and for the legislature, for the governor to issue an executive order and for the legislature to pass or true eviction moratorium that will not just go until December 31st, but we'll go until the crisis that we're in is over. That will protect all tenants because we're in this public health crisis and not just tenants who happened to find out about this and are able to send their landlord this sworn declaration.

Brian: I understand. Staying on the CDC policy for a minute, how would a renter demonstrate these things? Because as I look at the list of qualifications or requirements, as you laid them out and as I'm reading them on the associated press right now, people for one thing would have to demonstrate that they have sought government assistance to make their rental payments. I don't know what that means. Also, they would need to affirm that they are likely to become homeless if they are evicted. I don't know how somebody proves that.

Judith: Well, exactly, Brian. I think the problem is this is also being sworn to under penalty of perjury, with threats of possible criminal penalties, if they find that you have not been truthful in this and what does that mean to not have been truthful. My concern is it's going to lead to a lot of litigation because landlords are going to probably challenge every part of this ,and even going to court in the time of a pandemic isn't we think a good way forward. That's why we've recommended a moratorium that stops court cases and that puts a pause on really all housing court cases while we work through these problems.

Brian: How just to close the loop on this, and then we'll talk about other aspects. I realized this is less than 24 hours old, but how would you advise there at the Legal Aid Society, people to go about applying for this form of eviction protection, if they want to try to take advantage of it?

Judith: We are advising everyone to consult with an attorney. If you can call 311, you will be referred to us a free legal services attorney, if you're income eligible and that attorney can help advise you on whether this applies to you and whether it makes sense for you because it may not make sense for everyone, and it's really going to be an individual determination that I do think people need some legal advice to figure out.

Brian: Ask a lawyer before you try to do this, but free legal advice is available through 311 in this area if you're in New York City. Just as a footnote, it is interesting that they say that they're halting residential evictions in these ways to prevent the further spread of COVID-19. This isn't coming from the housing department of the federal government. This is coming from the Centers for Disease Control. I don't know if they're fitting around peg into a square hole to follow the president’s orders in some way, but this is the CDC saying that they're issuing eviction protections for the sake of tamping down the spread of the virus. Do you get the connection?

Judith: Absolutely. We saw such enormous spread of the disease in our homeless congregate shelters. Fortunately, so many of our homeless brothers and sisters were moved into hotels where they are much safer and that infection rate and death rate has gone way down as a result of that. Being out on the street or being in a congregate shelter, that is a great way to spread this disease and homelessness is a terrible way that this public health crisis has really impacted them. In addition, if you're going to be doubled up, we've also seen a much greater spread of the disease in households that are multi-generational and that are forced into tight surroundings. We definitely see the eviction moratorium as being critical for public health. We just don't think it goes far enough.

Brian: Let's take a phone call. Harfrid in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hello, Harfrid.

Halfrid: Hi. Actually, this is Halfrid, they misspelled my name, but anyway. Hi, good morning, Brian and good morning to guest. I was not able to pay my September rent, was able to pay on the last month because you were getting the unemployment. I have applied for the New York state rent relief for REM but I haven't gotten a response from them. I applied it on July 20th and I'm trying to follow-up with my case. Every time I called them, they don't give me any legit response, always telling me it's just a week.

Brian: Can you help him, Judith?

Judith: Maybe. I'm really so sorry about your situation. I would urge you to call 311 and get a referral to a free legal services attorney who may be able to help you. It sounds like you'd be someone we could help. On the housing, it's also important and good that you applied for that money from the State Housing Agency. I recommend that you call your state elected officials and ask them to intervene on your behalf because they may have a better chance of getting an answer than you do.

Halfrid: Great. Thank you so much.

Brian: Halfrid, I hope that helps. We'll take a break and continue in a minute. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. [music] Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're taking calls from people who couldn't make your rent yesterday, September 1st and what protections are in place at the state and federal level, including the new announcement last night from the Centers for Disease Control, that they will prevent certain evictions of certain renters around the country. We've been explaining those details with Judith Goldiner, attorney in charge at the Legal Aid Society's Civil Law Reform Unit, 646-435-7280. If you have a story of why you couldn't pay your September rent or a question for Judith Goldiner, 646-435-7280. Victoria in Trenton, you're on WNYC. Hi, Victoria.

Victoria: Hi. How are you?

Brian: Okay. Thank you. Do you have a question? Did you not make your September rent?

Victoria: Yes, sir. I thought I was holding, they told me to hold. She was going to transfer me to some legal attorney or something.

Brian: Oh, yes, she's on the phone with us, Judith Goldiner from the Legal Aid Society.

Victoria: Oh, okay, yes. I was just telling her how on May 2nd, I was diagnosed. I was positive for COVID on my job. I'm a practical nurse licensed in Pennsylvania and I left work due to COVID. Got sick on the job actually and ever since then, I applied for my unemployment since June 17th and still haven't been paid. I have been waiting all this time. I wasn't able to make a partial payment for August for my rent. For September, I can't pay because I waited for unemployment for so long. I had to go out and find me another job. Then the job required me to go and get tested again for COVID to make sure I was negative. I'm out of work again. No money, no work. I'm just waiting to still get paid for unemployment from UC unemployment from Pennsylvania so I can pay my September and the remaining balance for August. [crosstalk]

Brian: Victoria, may I ask what your communication with your landlord has been like and what your landlord has said?

Victoria: Oh, she's been very understanding. Prior, before I was positive for COVID, I was two months ahead of my rent. [crosstalk]

Brian: You're the only person in America who pays your rent in advance?

Victoria: [laughs] When the pandemic started, I didn't know what to expect so I figure rather than just be late, let me just catch up. Actually, it was not just my rent. I just started stocking up on food and other things not knowing or not expecting what was to come. That's basically what saving me right now because if I had not stocked up on food, I would not have anything right now.

Brian: It sounds like good forethought on multiple fronts. Judith, can you help Victoria at all? It certainly sounds incredibly frustrating if she's not hearing back on her unemployment application in all these weeks.

Judith: Victoria, I'm so sorry to hear this. It's just terrible what you're going through. You live in New Jersey, is that right?

Victoria: Yes, ma'am.

Judith: I would really recommend that you reach out both to your New Jersey elected officials about your unemployment, as well as legal services in New Jersey who may be able to help you get your unemployment. If there's a reason to negotiate with your landlord, they might be able to help you with that as well. It sounds like you've done all the right things, maybe just tell your landlord again, that you're waiting for unemployment and you're really hoping that you will be able to pay once you get the unemployment. I think that a lot of small landlords are working with their tenants. We haven't seen the big landlords do that, but I think a lot of the smaller landlords really are. Keep that line of communication open, but reach out again to legal services in New Jersey and also to your elected officials because you should be getting your unemployment, you're entitled to it.

Victoria: Yes, ma'am. I appreciate it. The good with thing with the landlord I was ahead of my rent, so she's been very understanding. She knows I will have my rent paid if I had the money, because like I said, I was two months ahead. She's been very, very understanding with me.

Brian: That's what paying your rent in advance was not only good economics, that turns out to be good public relations now that you need her trust more than anything else. Victoria, thank you so much. Good luck to you. Louis in Estoria, you are on WNYC. Hi, Louis.

Louis: Thank you. I just have a small rental situation. My question is why are small landlords continuously being excluded from any assistance and having the weight of the non-paying tenants, foisted it on their shoulders? The pandemic unemployment insurance supplement did not have a provision to force the use of those funds to pay rent. Our rentals are considered a passive tax activity so we're excluded from any SBA loans or grants. Alongside the eviction wave, there's going to be a wave of landlords losing their properties and vulture capitalists like Steve Mnuchin, our treasury secretary snapping properties up on the cheap.

Brian: Judith, a fair question, right, from a small landlord and claims.

Judith: We are very concerned about many of the issues you just raised that we could see a wave of small homeowners losing their homes because of the crisis, and that we don't want to see predatory people like Steve Mnuchin come in. I know that's what we saw with the last foreclosure crisis. We've been very supportive of the House of Representatives Heroes Act. That act would provide $100 billion for rental relief, which would really help landlords and tenants because really what we need here is to help people be able to pay their rent, exactly what you were saying. We need to be able to help people with that. Unfortunately, the Senate has not acted on that. It's really very troubling and obviously, the president isn't moving that part of it, which is I think as you say, critically important. What I would recommend for you in the short-term is really encourage your tenants to apply for money from public assistance. They do have money for rent arrears and they should be providing that money to people. Working with your tenants to try and help them get that money from public assistance, I think, could be really helpful to you.

Brian: Louis, I hope that's helpful. Judith, we just have 30 seconds left. You want to give us a New York state update real quick? We had heard for a long time about the August 20th Cuomo eviction moratorium. Now it's been extended. What's the status of that?

Judith: The status is the is no governor created moratorium. The New York state courts have put in a moratorium that applies to all evictions and goes only until October 1st. Only 30 more days of that protection and the courts have been clear that they are not going to extend that further.

Brian: It would take the legislature to act--

Judith: We really need here for the governor to act. The governor really needs to step up and provide a real moratorium for folks during this health crisis.

Brian: Judith Goldiner, attorney in charge at the Legal Aid Society's Civil Law Reform Unit. Thank you so much.

Judith: Thank you, Brian. [music]

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