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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and as we get to the one-year mark soon in the stay-at-home pandemic, we want to take a moment to talk about one group of us that's in aggregate, maybe the least affected by the disease itself or among the least affected, one of the most affected by the shutdown, teenagers. At an age defined by relying less on parents and more on peers, the pandemic appended that for so many with schooling shifting and in most cases remaining at home.

Then there are the hormonal changes that can wreak havoc with emotions at a very emotional time to begin with. Let's hear from parents and teachers about how you're handling this. Any teens who happen to be listening yourselves right now, what's working for you? What's working for the teenagers in your lives? 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280. Are they rising to the challenge? Struggling with being home more? Is rebellion now about social distancing and mask-wearing as well as curfews and homework as in normal times? I know I've spoken to multiple high school teachers and friends of mine who teach high school in different cities who've told me the exact same story without talking to each other.

"You can keep the masks on in class," but as soon as the teenagers walk out the school building door unlike the smaller kids, the masks come right off. Call us with your stories at 646-435-7280, or your questions on how to cope because we're going to get some guidance too as we're joined by psychologist Abigail Gewirtz, a professor in the Department Of Family Social Science and the Institute of Child Development at the University of Minnesota. She's the author of When the World Feels Like a Scary Place: Essential Conversations for Anxious Parents and Worried Kids. Dr. Gewirtz, thanks so much for coming on the show. Welcome to WNYC.

Dr. Gewirtz: Thank you, Brian. It's a treat to be with you.

Brian: When thinking about high school students during the pandemic, one thing that comes to mind is that line of Michael Corleone from the Godfather, "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in." In this case, just when I thought I was getting more independence, I'm locked down with my parents. How big a deal is that in the aggregate.

Dr. Gewirtz: It's a really big deal. I love that line. Thank you for opening with that. It's a really big deal. Listen, remember when you were a teen, all you wanted to do was be out with your friends. All you can do right now is be home with your family. It's really tough for teens. They are not all right with this.

Brian: Listeners, Again, our phone number is 646-435-7280. If you have a question for Dr. Gewirtz, or a story, 646-435-7280. I read one study that said 81% of teens in the UK said the pandemic made their pre-existing mental health challenge worse, while the parenting column in the New York Times cited another study that found teenagers reported being less depressed, can have crisis work either way on a psyche?

Dr. Gewirtz: It can work either way on a psyche. It really depends which is the answer that all researchers give, which I know is very unsatisfactory. I would bet my bottom dollar as a developmental researcher that ultimately we will see that it's been extremely challenging both in the UK and in the US for teens through the pandemic.

This is on top of 10 years of data showing worse mental health outcomes, particularly with anxiety and depression among teens. Over the last 10 years, both in the US and in the UK, teens have been reporting increased worries, anxiety, depression, things like that, also, unfortunately, suicidality. Now, it could be that some teens are feeling actually better. Who are the teens that might be feeling better in this crisis?

Ironically, or maybe not so ironically, those with anxiety related to going to school, for example, you don't have to go to school and you can stay in your PJ's at home and do school from home, that erases the source of some of your anxiety. That can help you feel a little less depressed and a little less anxious. That could explain some of the findings.

Brian: Do you find that this is stratifying by race and class as so many things do? Certainly, we know what kinds of families are being hit harder by the pandemic itself in terms of serious disease and death. We know what kinds of families are being hit harder economically, how do you see that across race and class lines among teenagers?

Dr. Gewirtz: I think without a doubt you're going to see the same disparities that you do in the issues that you just talked about in general. The pandemic has hit people disproportionately. We've seen in the news stories of teens having to sit in the parking lot of a McDonald's in order to get the WiFi they need to be able to stay in school. If you have a home environment that's very crowded, that even if you have internet access, you don't have privacy, that's going to make it very hard for you to participate.

It's going to make it hard for you maybe socially as well. The same exist and I think we're going to see them in full color, unfortunatley, once everyone's back in school. You're going to see that evidenced by disparities in achievement and then in educational levels once we all get back into school.

Brian: Let's take a call from Matthew age 15 in the Bronx. Matthew, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling the show.

Matthew: Thank you for having me on. Wow, I did not think I was going to get on. Hi, my name is Matthew and I'm a high schooler during the pandemic in New York.

Brian: Hi, Matthew, it's good to have you. What do you want to say? What are you thinking?

Matthew: It's just, pandemic is a very hard thing to go through, especially as a teenager when you're going through so much anxiety and changes in your mental health and for your physical health and as a person who transferred schools in a pandemic. I'm very lucky to have met some amazing friends, but high school one of the toughest periods of anybody's life. I wake up every day and wonder if I'm going to feel motivated enough to attend school and keep a healthy mind about it.

Brian: What is it that makes the motivation piece difficult? Is it just being at home? I don't know if you're doing homeschooling if you are staring at a screen for so much at school or what part of your pandemic experience affects your motivation?

Matthew: I never thought that I would not enjoy staring at a screen for several hours, but it kind of sucks the life out of you to just sit there for several hours, and the engagement level is so much-- It's so much more depleted than it was in a regular classroom and it's just very hard.

Brian: Dr. Gewirtz, do you want to ask Matthew anything?

Dr. Gewirtz: I want to say Matthew I'm so glad you made it on the show because I think what you are saying millions of teens are thinking. It's really so hard and I've spoken to so many teens who never saw their high school because their freshman year was the pandemic year.

It's really so hard. I have a teen at home myself. I watch a math class, like you say. Nobody has their video on, and the engagement level is so low and I cannot imagine how hard it must be to sit and watch the screen for eight hours. The question I have for you is how do you keep being engaged? What things work for you?

Matthew: My main motivation is I always try to stay positive. I also try not to think too far ahead into the future because if you think too far ahead, then your mind can go in all different directions. It's very hard to get yourself back into reality. I also find a lot of motivation in my friends, the friends that I've made at this new school I'm attending, they're all really amazing people. I'm motivated to eventually get to meet them all in person and be able to hang out with them and not just over a screen.

Brian: Dr. Gewirtz since you are in the advice business as a psychologist, any advice for Matthew before we let him go?

Abigail Gewirtz: Well, he gave some great advice and I want to just punctuate his advice, which is we say small steps to success and Matthew, I would just challenge one thing, which you can think of as advice, but I think you it, which is small steps to success, which means, think about today and what you've got to get done today but ultimately one of the things teens do think about is, "What's in my future," and you keep your eye on the prize.

"Here I'm working hard because I want to go to college and that's why I'm just going to focus on what I need to get done today," but there's a meaning behind that, which is, "I want to get to the next step," and how important support is. Any support you can get, I'm so glad that you have some peer support friends, friends mean so much, and thank goodness we have ways of being able to talk to our friends, even though we can't see them in-person, which is what we most want to do.

Brian: Matthew, thank you-- Go ahead, do you want to say one last thing? Matthew? Or you can just go--

Matthew: Me?

Brian: Yes.

Matthew: I just wanted to thank you a lot for this. My aunt told me about your show and I decided to call in. This really made my day. Thank you.

Brian: You know what, Matthew? You made a lot of other people's day. Hang in there. We will get through this.

Matthew: Great. Thank you.

Brian: Theo in-- Is it Walker Valley, New York. Hi, Theo you're on WNYC.

Theo: Yes, that's correct. First-time caller, long-time listener. I'm happy to be on right now.

Brian: Glad you're on. Where's Walker Valley, by the way, I thought I knew every town in New York. Did I get your location right? Theo.

Theo: Yes, that's correct.

Brian: Where is that? I don't know if you're able to hear my question. Anyway, go ahead. You wanted to tell a story you're 21 and out of high school, right?

Theo: Yes, I just know that the literature they give out in high school, it's often quite depressing topics. I know if I were at home reading those books, dealing with the times we're in right now, I'd be going through some tough times right now I know for a fact.

Brian: What kind of subjects or books are you thinking about?

Theo: Oh, multiples. I just know what with all my English classes, The Color of Water, for example, other than Shakespeare, a lot of the literature they give you, it's just not quite happy as much you've had hard times for all and while it's relatable, I think that would actually be the toughest part for me.

Brian: Theo. Thank you for calling, good luck to you and I'm glad you're out of high school at a time that you're really glad to be out of high school. Dr. Gewirtz that's an interesting observation that I hadn't thought about a lot of the literature, a lot of the fictional literature that they deal with in English class, and maybe some of the tough stuff they deal with in history class and other things are very challenging, which books are chosen, are designed to be developmentally appropriate, so kids deal with a lot of issues in their literature classes and maybe that becomes harder at a time of such stress and anxiety.

Abigail Gewirtz: Yes because what you're missing is the peer group. Think about these books that Theo mentioned the The Color of Water, for example, they're designed to be read in a classroom setting. Kids are sitting around and talking about it and that's what we do in our teen years. We think about deep things like identity and meaning and who are we and where are we going and who do we want to be? We try on different identities. It's hard to do that in a vacuum when you're at home.

I can understand Theo's perspective. What I would say is like, what keeps you going? That's in a way what we have to think about. I have to say, I love some good news and anything that comes on that gives us an opportunity to have some light-hearted interludes in the day, whether it's my teen loves to show us a great people dancing on different social media channels. It is really important not to get sucked into the really deep, dark hard stuff when you're on your own. I'm glad that Theo made that point.

Brian: By the way, I just looked it up, Walker Valley is in Ulster County. It's in the foothills of the Gunks, the mountains there near pine Bush, et cetera. My ignorance is relieved on that particular point. Chris, in Lavallette, New Jersey, you're on WNYC with Dr. Gewirtz. Hi, Chris.

Chris: How you doing Brian? I've been listening for a very long time, love your show.

Brian: Thank you.

Chris: I heard a couple of weeks ago. Some of the kids are not fortunate enough to be able to attend college because they have to work and support their families through the pandemic. My son is in the very fortunate situation, he can attend college. He chose not to go back. He's 18. He's about to turn 19. I got three quick points. He chose not to go back. I think someone as fortunate as him, he should absolutely go back and adapt, do whatever it takes to get the degree he needs to get. It's partially enabled by-- The corrupt family courthouse favors women. His mother has basically for years given him the right to make his own decisions.

I have a daughter with Down Syndrome. I haven't seen for 10 months. I've been homeless, partly because of my ex. Homeless people have been affected very much by the pandemic. We couldn't use public bathrooms for a long time. We couldn't join a gym membership to shower and the last point my son being from Massachusetts, I'm a long-time marijuana user who recently just seen the light and I do not agree with what's about to go down in New Jersey.

Brian: Chris, I'm going to leave it there because you're getting onto things that are way off the topic. I apologize, but I think I'm going to go right onto the next call to keep this on point. Good luck with you and your family and your situation though. Let's take Kim Marie teacher and the parent in Hell's Kitchen. Kim Marie on WNYC, hello.

Kim Marie: Hi, Brian. Thank you so much for taking my call, this clearly is very pressing to me as a person who speaks to young people and sees young people on zooms every single day. I have a daughter in the next room who's on zooms and just last week, right before the winter break, I had 32 zooms for parent-teacher conferences, so I was also talking to a lot of parents.

The tricky thing that I'm seeing on all levels is that everybody's struggling with what's happening. The kids are struggling for all of the reasons that you've been talking about since the segment started, where they're not with their friends, the Zoom and the educational life is literally in the air. It's very hard for them to manage it and keep track of everything. Then they're not turning things in.

Almost every parent I talked to was so concerned because they're like, "This kid is just great." Usually, this is something that's very easy for them and they're not turning things in. I see my own daughter finishing assignments and then not turning them in. So much of my parent-teacher conference, the language I was using is, "This is not a reflection on you, nor does a reflection on your child. This is something that we're going through as a society and nobody's really talking." We just haven't been able to figure out how to move forward in a more productive way. We see that the zooms aren't working, we see that the isolation isn't working yet, what are we going to do?

Brian: Dr. Gewirtz talk to Kim Marie.

Abigail Gewirtz: Oh, thank you for saying it like it is Kim Marie. Thank you. I think everyone needs to hear that. Things are not all right. They are not and we hold up with totally unrealistic expectations for, we have unrealistic expectations for everyone, for our teens, our parents, and our teachers. You are a teacher and a parent. We expect our parents to be teachers and parents and work full time as well.

You're in one of those spots where you have to do all three things at once. It's impossible and I think we have to let go of the notion that we can expect anything. Let's just leave it alone. I was talking to two parents, both of whom are doctors and their child is younger, but they said, "We decided this is a wash. If he has to do another year, you have to do another year. It is what it is."

Brian: Drop your expectations. Let me ask you one specific-- Kim Marie, thank you. Let me ask you one specific follow-up on that and then we're going to be out of time. We have two callers on the board so because there are two out of just 10 lines, I have a feeling they're speaking for many other people as well, with a specific question that their teenagers are just basically staying in bed all day. Are you hearing that and how would one address it?

Abigail Gewirtz: Yes, I am hearing that. That's something you got to address at the point at which your team isn't able to do what he or she normally does and is feeling miserable. Those are the two signs that you should get specialized mental health help. One, they can't do the things that-- We're not talking about forgetting to hand in an assignment. We're talking about not being able to get out of bed, not being able to log on at all because the motivation is out because they're feeling so bad.

Number two, they're miserable. Find a mental health. Reach out to a mental health professional and get some help for your child because this is serious and this is really hard times. We also bear in mind as parents, we have to deal with our own stresses. Our kids are stressed in the bubble of a very stressed family as well. Let's hope for better times. In the meantime, find one good thing each day.

Brian: Abigail Gewirtz, the psychologist who teaches at the University of Minnesota and is author of the book When The World Feels Like A Scary Place: Essential Conversations For Anxious Parents and Worried Kids. I think this has been really helpful for a lot of people. Thank you very much for your time today.

Dr. Gerwirtz: Thank you so much, Brian.

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