Brian Lehrer: Was there really a question of who Time magazine was going to name as its Person of the Year? Taylor Swift has been a cultural and economic force this year selling music and concert tickets, yes, but also noticeably boosting the economies of whatever cities her tours stopped in, and even adding to the popularity of the NFL by dating a player. Colleges are teaching classes about her.

Yes, other important, and of course, devastating things happened this year, but the country and the world seemed caught up in Taylormania. To find out what went into the pick, some of the other finalists on the shortlist, and what it says about the world, we are joined now by Time magazine editor-in-chief, Sam Jacobs. Sam, welcome to WNYC. Thanks for coming on the morning you release the Person of the Year.

Sam Jacobs: Thank you, Brian. Thrilled to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: Is this a hard decision, a wrenching decision?

Sam Jacobs: Well, there are 8 billion people on the planet so picking one person who can best represent what happens in any year, it's never easy but it was amazing to see over the course of the summer and fall how a choice that may be surprising to some. In fact, Brian, if you think about the history of the franchise, Taylor Swift is the first person to be recognized as Person of the Year for her contribution to the arc. While this choice maybe feels inevitable today, as many people have told me so far this morning, she is an aberration and a departure from the traditional types of people that a Person of the Year. In that way, this wasn't something that was certainty as the year went on.

Brian Lehrer: This show being the show, I have to ask you, was there a political aspect to this at all? Because Taylor Swift has become controversial on the right for coming out with political views that may be antithetical to what some people on the right think.

Sam Jacobs: I think about this more in the context of what does power look like in 2023. I think in many ways we've seen our establishment institutions and the practitioners of traditional forms of power in a state of dysfunction. At the same time, we've seen Taylor Swift, who is more of a vehicle for soft power have this transcendent moment.

I was talking to a US diplomat earlier this year, and they were telling me how excited they were that Taylor Swift was coming to their country to perform in their region. I think the fact that she has become a symbol of joy and community on the global stage is an important reminder of the different types of power. I think the limits and the cost that we've seen to some sorts of soft power, we have seen dip her toe into politics in the United States.

There are certainly many on the left who have been frustrated that maybe she hasn't used her influence in ways that they hope or expect her to but this is someone who tells her followers and fans to register to vote and tens of thousands of people sign up to vote that day. She certainly has the power and the interest to motivate people to participate in the political process.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, our last call in for the day is on the question is Taylor Swift your Person of the Year, and if not her, who would you have named by Time magazine's usual criteria of being the most influential? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We've talked about her and her impact on this show earlier in the year, and we've heard from a lot of you, so I think this will be a popular choice in this audience, but call us and make the case for Taylor or tell us who you think should be Person of the Year using the Time magazine standard of most influential for better or worse. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, call or text for Time magazine editor-in-chief Sam Jacobs.

On that criterion of most influential, it's not about doing good in the world. Hitler was your designee in 1938, and we could go back in history and pick others from Time magazine's Person of the Year like that. One could argue that you should have picked the head of Hamas for being the most influential person in the year this year, though obviously, that's not any form of praise. Has that criteria changed over the years?

Sam Jacobs: We've tried to remain consistent to that criteria. I think that's why you see there are some years when Time selects, not a person, but a group of people or a concept because it feels like that is the best vehicle for us to examine the nature of influence at any moment. Go back two years or three and you have someone like Elon Musk who was the then Person of the Year. You have President-elect and Vice President-elect Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, you have Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and so we've looked at lots of different people who practice influence and power in different ways over the last few years.

Brian Lehrer: You did put out a short list of contenders in advance that we were looking at and placing no money bets in our Brian Lehrer Show team meeting yesterday as who would actually emerge from the list. Just so our listeners know who else you were considering in the last mile, the Trump prosecutors as a group. I'll admit that's who I thought you were going to name. The Hollywood strikers, Xi Jingping, Barbie, Putin, Jerome Powell, head of the Fed, and King Charles. That last name is the only one I don't think we've talked about on the show this year, King Charles.

I actually thought the Trump prosecutors might stand a good chance by the usual criteria, thinking about some of the ones you've had in the past but I guess, yes, Taylor Swift.

Sam Jacobs: Well, and the story of Trump's prosecutions and the variety of jurisdictions in where he is facing legal trouble is one that I think is just beginning and so I think it's certainly something that we will be watching in the year and it seems like years ahead as those stories play out.

Brian Lehrer: Can I ask you, we got the news today of the death of Norman Lear at 101, obviously someone in the entertainment world with a huge lifetime impact on American culture, and he moved into the political world as well with his group People For the American Way. Any reflection on Norman Lear?

Sam Jacobs: I think through the frame of today's selection with Taylor Swift, I think Norman Lear is a perfect example of someone who shows the power of entertainment. The longevity of his career, the ability for him to tell stories to America and help America better understand itself. That is true of generations of people who have grown up watching his shows. One of the things that we talked about with Taylor Swift was this idea that certainly within her own industry, most people don't make it past the age of 29.

The successful people in the entertainment industry and music have a shelf life and it's very hard to reinvent yourself year after year, decade after decade to stay relevant. To make that comparison to Norman Lear, an incredible figure, he was able to do that across decades and decades of creating work that people admired and like I said, help them better understand our country and ourselves.

Brian Lehrer: Let's get a couple of callers in here. Guillaume in Mountain Lakes. You're on WNYC. Hi, Guillaume.

Guillaume: Hello. Good morning. How are you doing?

Brian Lehrer: Good. What have you got?

Guillaume: Well, I was going to say that I feel strongly and very passionately that Taylor Swift deserves to be the Person of the Year. I think that she has really not just stepped up to the plate to be the voice of our generation, but also she's worked incredibly hard to work across generations. I'm really impressed by how she's continued to make her practice as an artist a platform for other voices that are maybe less heard or seen.

Brian Lehrer: Guillaume, thank you very much. Norbert in Rockland County has an alternative nominee who he might've liked to see considered. Norbert, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Nobert: Good morning, Brian. Adam Kinzinger, Republican of Illinois, who showed us what we used to see a lot more of, the principled resignation. People who did not just sit and wait for the former president's turn to end, but actually quit. He'll never be president. Actually, his manner is not telegenic enough. He's a little too flippant in his material, in his presentation, but he showed us something we haven't seen in years. That's it.

Brian Lehrer: How about Liz Cheney over Adam Kinzinger, if you're going in that direction?

Nobert: Yes, in that direction, absolutely agreed, but she has served her public service, she has done something. Kinzinger might have wanted to become a senator. He might have wanted to become a president. He chose another route for principle. That's [unintelligible 00:09:56]-

Brian Lehrer: Norbert, thank you. Thank you very much. Keep calling us. We're getting a few people criticizing this choice sort of conceptually, and I'm going to let Kanene in Harlem articulate it for a few folks who are calling and writing in. Kanene, we don't have much time, so you got to do it in 30 seconds today. Hi.

Kanene: All right. Hi. Good morning. Thank you again. I think we're suffering from peak celebrity, toxic celebrity culture at this point. Like, Taylor, yes, she's doing it, but she's going to continue to do that. She doesn't need the amplification, the mega horn of Time magazine to certify or authenticate what she was already doing. I think what is the purpose of that magazine at this point? Is it to sell more copies because they know a lot of their fans are going to buy Taylor Swift on the cover of Time and introduce a new generation to Time magazine?

Because there's a lot of women specifically in AI, [unintelligible 00:10:49] other Black women who have been advocating for eliminating bias and making AI a lot more ethical and again, we're thinking about the 21st century. The arc of the moral universe needs to bend towards Artificial Intelligence justice, and I feel like that is a huge vacuum that Time mag-

Brian Lehrer: Kanene, I got you. Thank you very much and so that reflects some of the other callers who are critical, a lot are happy with Taylor Swift, but that it's celebrity culture and it's not like she's doing that much to advance the universe.

Sam Jacobs: I hear those criticisms. A thing I love about the Person of the Year is and the way that it gets people to think and think about influence and think about power. I think important to note, one person we recognize in this issue is the CEO of the year, Sam Altman, for his contributions to AI and the story that he told. We also launched an entire list this year called the Time 100 AI devoted exactly to the people that your caller wants us to recognize, those who are working from underrepresented groups and from the margins that are trying to push this transformative technology forward.

I think Brian, you made the point, and I think we make the point in the story, that Taylor Swift is empowering people who have often felt overlooked and underestimated. We are trying to recognize her both as an author and avatar of these important societal shifts, particularly when it comes to the centering of the stories of women and girls. I think she's done that in an incredible way this year.

Brian Lehrer: One listener who wrote a text message supporting this choice says, "As an artist, it's refreshing to have Taylor win. I recall the French having Cézanne on the 20 Frank note. How long before an artist graces our currency?" With that as a rhetorical question, we will leave it with Sam Jacobs, editor-in-chief of Time magazine. They are just out this morning with their annual Time magazine Person of the Year. Yes, it was Taylor Swift. Thank you so much for joining us, Sam. We appreciate it a lot.

Sam Jacobs: Thank you very much, Brian.

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