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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Can I mention something from the sports world that we never thought we would say today? Jersey City's St. Peter's University. How many people ever even heard of St. Peter's University. You know NYU, you know Columbia, you know other colleges in our area, St. Peter's University is a thing. It is a 15 seed in the NCAA March Madness tournament. Well, they scored a huge upset over the vaunted number 2 seed Kentucky yesterday in the first round of March Madness, so that happened. We're going to ask our next guest Mike Lupica about that briefly.

Today, the Yankees play their first game of spring training. Yay, the Mets have their first game tomorrow. Hurray. Major League Baseball is coming to a stadium or a TV screen near you, or maybe your phone. They're doing more and more streaming of these games, not just televising but there's a chance that your favorite Mets or Yankees player won't be playing home games once the regular season starts on April 7th.

That's because of New York City's vaccine mandate, which happens to be unique among all major league cities and stipulates that all in-person employees, you know this if you work anywhere in-person in New York City, all in-person employees of all private businesses in the city must be vaccinated, and yes, that includes professional athletes. Unless the rule changes in the next few weeks, and there's an ongoing pressure for Mayor Adams to do just that, more on that in a minute, unvaccinated players from the home teams won't be able to play in home games at Citi Field or Yankee Stadium.

Now, if you're a basketball fan, or pay attention to the Brooklyn Nets in any way, you've seen how this rule has played out this season, with unvaccinated star player Kyrie Irving. Early in the NBA season, he wasn't even allowed in the stadium for home games, but once the city lifted the vaccine requirement for fans, you know how recently the city said you can now go to music venues, you can go to restaurants, you can go to ball games, as a patron without showing proof of vaccination anymore.

He can watch from the sidelines, Kyrie Irving, and he's done it, but employees have to be vaccinated. All those restaurant workers, the musicians who play in local clubs, and yes, the athletes who play for the local sports team. Here's a clip of the biggest New York Nets' star Kevin Durant from earlier this week, Brooklyn Nets, after the Nets beat the Knicks, calling on Mayor Adams to change the rule so Kyrie Irving can play as the Nets approach the playoffs.

Kevin Durant: Yes. I don't get it. It just feels like at this point now, somebody is trying to make a statement or a point to flex their authority. Everybody out here looking for attention, and that's why I feel like the mayor wants right now some attention, but he'll figure it out soon. He better. It just didn't make any sense. There's unvaxxed people in this building already. We got a guy who can come into the building, I guess. Are they fearing for our safety? I don't get it.

We're all confused, pretty much everybody in the world is confused at this point. Early on in the season, people didn't understand what was going on, but now it just looks stupid. Hopefully, Eric dude, you got to figure this out.

Brian Lehrer: Hopefully Eric dude, you got to figure this out. We're going to play a clip of Eric dude here next. By the way in the very next game on Tuesday, Kyrie Irving set a Nets all-time record I think by scoring 60 points against the Magic in Orlando. He could do that because Florida doesn't have a mandate and he's allowed to play in away games.

What about baseball? Well, the games are played outside, although the clubhouse is inside, there are all those workers who work in the clubhouse. This is to protect Joe Blow the clubhouse attendant as much as it is some high paid major league baseball player. At a news conference on Wednesday, Mayor Adams said he will be speaking to major league baseball officials to figure out a solution, but he wouldn't promise it would come before opening day. Here's a clip.

Eric Adams: I'm not going to be rushed in based on a season schedule. I'm going to do this right for the people of this city. I'm not focusing on one individual, I'm focusing on 9 million people.

Brian Lehrer: Joining us now is Mike Lupica, a columnist for the New York Daily News and author of several books including the recently released work of fiction that he wrote called The Horsewoman co-authored with James Patterson. One of his latest columns in the Daily News is called Baseball Has Its Own Set of Kyrie Irvings on His Hands Now. Mike, welcome back to WNYC. Thanks for making some time for us today.

Mike Lupica: Brian, it's so good to talk to you again.

Brian Lehrer: Do we know how many Kyrie Irving's the Mets and Yankees have?

Mike Lupica: No. From what we've heard, and it's all speculation, but I think a lot of it is informed speculation, Brian. It might be as many as half of the New York Mets including some stars. I think it's a smaller number. I'm sorry, what?

Brian Lehrer: Oh, I was just reacting to that. I didn't realize it might be as much as half of the Mets.

Mike Lupica: It's been reported that it might be as many as 55% or 60% of the Mets. I think the number is smaller with the New York Yankees, but, Brian, here's the thing. Fans shouldn't be angry at the mandate, and they shouldn't be mad at the mayor of New York City. They should be mad at athletes in this city, in this time, after what we've experienced over the last two years who have adopted the boneheaded stance that they don't want to be vaccinated.

With all due respect to Kevin Durant, and, Brian, you know nothing good ever comes after all due respect. I'm not going to take my public health information for the guy talking to Eric dude. I'm going to take it from the CDC. If these guys think that we're in the clear now, then to take a reference from another sport, Brian, they're spiking the ball way too soon.

Brian Lehrer: I personally agree with you, but there is an argument that New York is unique. Nobody else has this rule at this level. A lot of cities and a lot of states have mandates for public sector workers, New York, I think at this point, maybe it always was unique for having a private-sector mandate. It is this patchwork now, where you and I can go into a restaurant as patrons, even if we're not vaccinated, the person who's serving us still has to be vaccinated.

That's why they can't play the home games, but the fans now can go to the games. You can put 40,000, 50,000 people in Citi Field Yankee Stadium, and you don't know if you're sitting in a group of unvaccinated people. That's okay now. Maybe we should be raising questions about that, but the mandate does still apply to the players, but it's only in New York.

Mike Lupica: I understand that it has been a buffet table across this country, and across the world about how to deal with this thing. The thing that bothers me and I think from what you just said, it bothers you is, it's the wrongheaded thinking that still has people being unvaccinated in this country, Brian.

I was talking to a friend of mine about this the other day, and there was a delay in me getting my baseball writers card because they hadn't received my information about being vaccinated. Okay, that's fine. It was a snap when I did it, but I said to my friend, "The anti-vax movement in this country, at this time, after what we've experienced over the last two years, is as dumb an American moment, as I've experienced in my adult lifetime."

Without getting up on a soapbox here, just imagine if these unvaccinated players had been told in March of 2020, when the whole country was in the process of shutting down, "Okay, but there's a shot you can go get, there's a shot you can go get." If the vaccine existed then that'll allow us to open up again, they would have run over people getting to the nearest place where they could get jabbed.

Brian Lehrer: For a lot of people, "they did run over people," metaphorically to the nearest place where they could get jabbed and we have this insane anti-vax movement in this country, absolutely. Let me play a clip of Aaron Judge who may be the biggest star out of all the Mets and Yankees, and how he evaded the question when he was asked the other day if he's been vaccinated. I think we have this clip of Aaron Judge. Hang on. We don't have this clip? Okay.

Mike Lupica: It was a non-denial denial, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Mike. Yes. A non-denial denial that kind of said, well, probably something will work out by opening day. Do you have any reason to believe that Aaron Judge will get vaccinated now it is going to matter whether he can play at Yankee Stadium, or whether Mayor Adams is going to cave?

Mike Lupica: I think he believes that this is going to change, if not before opening day, that sometime soon. I think he's hopeful of that. Anthony Rizzo who the Yankees resign, he wouldn't answer the question. I said it in this column that I wrote the other day, Brian, a spoiler alert, if they don't answer the question, they haven't been vaccinated. That's not even in dispute.

The reasons, Brian, the reasons I have heard from sports, from some of these people, and I'm not going to name them about why they won't get vaccinated include that they are afraid it's going to make them sterile. There isn't a shred of scientific or medical evidence that says this is true, but they're buying into some of these wingnut theories about the vaccine. Go get jabbed, it will make your life easier. It'll make the lives of the people around you easier.

I call it the Novak Djokovic School of Medicine, Brian, a guy who is willing to alter his place in tennis history because he refuses to get vaccinated. One of the reasons he's given is he says, he's not sure he trusts the science. Well, I'm wondering if the millions of people around the world who died from this thing would love the opportunity to trust the science.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take one phone call, which I think is all we're going to have time for from a Mets fan as it turns out, and then we'll touch on some related things. Louis in Jamaica, you're on WNYC. Hi, Louis.

Louis: How are you doing, Brian? It's a pleasure to speak to you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for calling.

Louis: I found the light when I found your show.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you so much.

Louis: I love Lupica, too.

Mike Lupica: Thank you, Louis.

Louis: Yes, I read your stuff all the time. I just want to make the point that I'm a Mets fan, and also I didn't tell the screener, but I'm a Nets fan too, but I completely agree with their mandate. You have to make it obvious to people that they have to get vaccinated. It's not a point of whether you can give it to somebody else, is to make the example, why should they get by on vaccinating when everybody is following the rules. If you vaccinate, you give the appearance that everybody has to get vaccinated. You shouldn't make exceptions for people. Vaccinate, and then you get to play.

Kyrie Irving, we have missed him playing at home, but if you get vaccinated, then you will be able to play. It's as simple as that. Everybody attacked Harden for trying to get out of Brooklyn, but he has a point. If everybody's not pulling together in the same direction, then their team is not going to go as far. That's why he felt like everybody, I have a better chance somewhere else where everybody's pulling together. Kyrie could have gotten vaccinated from the beginning, and they would have been in a better position to play.

Brian Lehrer: Louis, thank you.

Louis: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to run because we're going to run out of time in the segment, but thank you so much. I'm glad you found the show, and please call us again, okay?

Louis: All right. Thank you. I love you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, that's so sweet. I love you, too. Isn't that sweet, Mike?

Mike Lupica: He's right. Brian, he's right. Kyrie Irving is going to alter his team's season permanently in the short run, and he may cost them a chance at a championship if the mandate doesn't change in the long run. He's not Nelson Mandela, Brian, this is a stubborn and arrogant, and uninformed position. If I were James Harden, I wouldn't have wanted to play with this guy either.

Brian Lehrer: Can I get you to give us a quick reaction to what happened in the March Madness tournament last night and tell me honestly, did you ever even know there was such a thing at at St. Peter's University in Jersey City until this week?

Mike Lupica: Yes, I did. I have been to St. Peter's. Brian, the last time I was at St. Peter's, it's been a while. I heard Barack Obama speak there when he was running for president the first time, and an old BC Boston College, friend of mine named Bob Dukiet was once I believe the basketball coach there. What happened last night is why people love this tournament because St Peter's [unintelligible 00:15:00] in New Jersey can knock off one of the most famous programs in history.

You know what, Brian, completely outplay them in the process. If that didn't make you stand up and cheer about the fact that you can't write the script for sports before the game is played, I don't know whatever will.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, against the vaunted University of Kentucky. I do want to give you a minute to do a shout out about your latest book, which is called The Horsewoman. It's a novel. People who don't know your work, don't know that Mike Lupica is not just a sports columnist, you've done news columns, and you write fiction and this one is with James Patterson. Tell us a little bit about The Horsewoman.

Mike Lupica: My daughter has been a competitive showjumper since she was 10 Brian. Jim and I got together, we've actually already finished two more books that will come out in 2023. It has been the greatest experience of my life. It's about a mother, a daughter, two horses, one dream. They both want to go to the Paris Olympics in showjumping. It is a great family story. I think it'll give people a sense of what it's like to be in the ring.

The sport it scared the hell out of me for the last several of years. I will just tell you this, writing with James Patterson, my friend has been like a masterclass in storytelling. Brian, if you're going to get a writing partner at this stage in your career, get with the guy who's sold more books than anybody on the planet.

Brian Lehrer: That's sweet. I see the main character in your book is named Maggie Atwood. Is that homage to Margaret Atwood?

Mike Lupica: In my scrambled brain, people have pointed that out. No, I didn't think of it. Maggie Atwood [unintelligible 00:16:57] Atwood farms. By the way, if anybody considers it an homage to the great Margaret Atwood, I'm good with that, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Well, she was a guest on the show just the other week. We'll have to get you two together. Mike Lupica and Margaret Atwood talk about Maggie Atwood. Talk about that sport because people don't know, I don't know horse jumping. Of course, anything that's a woman's sport is automatically going to get less publicity than a men's sport. Maybe there's men's horse jumping too, you'll tell me but I also -- Go ahead. You go.

Mike Lupica: No, no, Brian. One of the things that fascinated Jim about this sport is that men can compete against women. Teenagers can compete against riders up into their 60s. The beauty of it is that it's not just the horse and the jumping and the speed, you knocked down one rail and your dream can end. It can happen that quickly.

You know how you watch figure skating and your hearts in your throat because you know that the next jump if the kid lands wrong, could ruin her chances. Showjumping is about the same way and it's one of the reasons why as I've watched my daughter over all these years, people often see me hiding behind trees and under hedges and only peering up occasionally.

Brian Lehrer: We're going to go from the horse to the GOAT, which sports fans know is an acronym for the greatest of all time, GOAT. Some people say if it was Tom Brady, who they call the GOAT in the NFL among quarterbacks, who was being held by the Russians, on a little hashish possession charge, the United States of America would be absolutely in flames with pressure to release him, but it is arguably the GOAT of women's basketball of the WNBA Brittney Griner and it makes the news, but you know. Do you have anything to say about that?

Mike Lupica: Yes. I'm going to be writing in-depth about this in my Sunday column. Brian, this is a scandal. It's an international scandal. Brittney Griner is a political prisoner. I don't know what their end game is, but somehow the government of this country has to get that young woman out of that country as soon as possible. This to me is an outrage. It is an outrage, what she's being held for.

They're not holding her because of the charges they've leveled against her which are misdemeanors at best. They are holding her to try to bully the United States of America and it's not going to change what's happening in Ukraine, but this country has got to get her out of Russia.

Brian Lehrer: Mike Lupica, New York Daily News sports columnist, also writes for mlb.com. He's the author of the recently released novel, The Horsewoman, written with James Patterson. Thanks so much for coming on with us, Mike. Have a good weekend.

Mike Lupica: It's so great to be with you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, everybody, have a good weekend.

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