[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, something a little unusual for this day and age, a Democratic and a Republican member of Congress jointly sponsoring legislation. It's Democratic Congressman Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey and Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York, and it's about their joint objections representing the New York suburbs in both states and from both parties to the congestion pricing law passed by the New York State legislature in 2019, or at least how it might be implemented for driving into Manhattan below 60th Street.

Congressman Gottheimer represents New Jersey's 5th Congressional District in the northernmost part of the state, which includes parts of Bergen, Passaic, Sussex, and Warren Counties. He was first sworn in on January 3rd, 2017, so he's now in his fourth term in office. Congressman Lawler was just elected in the newly redrawn 17th Congressional District in New York, which includes Rockland County, Putnam County, and portions of Westchester and Duchess counties.

Together they have introduced what they call the bipartisan Anti-Congestion Act, which a Gottheimer press release says will defund the MTA if New York implements the congestion pricing tax. We welcome both members to the show. Congressman Gottheimer welcome back as a fourth-termer and Congressman Lawler-

Congressman Gottheimer: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: -good to have you. Welcome to WNYC and congratulations on your election.

Congressman Gottheimer: Thanks so much.

Congressman Lawler: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Gottheimer, want to start and say why you object to congestion pricing and what exactly your bill would do to defund the MTA? I'm just taking that language from your press release, if it becomes law and the MTA goes ahead with congestion pricing?

Congressman Gottheimer: Sure. Those folks that don't know about the congestion tax, this would be a $23 new tax every time you drive into New York City south of 60th Street. That's on top of the $17 a day you’d pay a coming from Jersey or the outer boroughs into New York City for the toll plus parking and gas. The problem with it, it doesn't do anything to actually help congestion or reduce pollution, two of what people would think it would do to help. By MTA's own admission, it does neither. It will crush hardworking families with this huge new feed actually commute. On top of all of it, it's just a huge cash grab for the MTA that has massive budget deficits because of their mismanagement, and it's been riddled with fraud and corruption. This is just a cash grab for the MTA.

Our biggest problems Mike and I have is that it doesn't actually solve the problem it claims to. It'll hurt our families more. It hurts hardworking people especially, middle-class families. What we've proposed is a bipartisan Anti-Congestion Tax Act, which says to the MTA, "If you insist on going forward with this cash grab to deal with your mismanagement, then the federal government shouldn't also help you out." It actually takes the money away that they get from the federal government if this is what they insist on doing, and then, of course, gives a break to those hard-working families that have to pay this new congestion tax on their taxes every year. It gives them a tax credit.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Lawler, would you like to add anything to that?

Congressman Lawler: Absolutely. This is certainly a bipartisan bill in opposition to the MTA's cash grab. The MTA is the worst-run authority in America. They have had severe budget deficits for years because of their mismanagement and incompetence. This is nothing more than a money grab from hardworking suburban commuters. In Rockland County where I lived, we have a $40 million value gap with the MTA. We're part of the MTA region. We pay $40 million more in taxes every year to the MTA and we get nothing for it. MTA has cut express rail service to Rockland. We do not have a one-seat ride on that side of the river. Frankly, this congestion tax is not going to see significant investments in Metro North at all.

For me, as a representative representing the suburbs where we're part of the MTA region, my problem with this is very simple. My residents are forced to commute by car. They already pay significant tolls to cross the Hudson River and get into Manhattan. Now we're going to add a $23 tax on top of it, which would cost the average commuter an additional $5,000 a year. That is wholly unacceptable, especially when we're dealing with record inflation, skyrocketing energy costs. We should be working to make it more affordable for our commuters, not less, and this plan should be dead on arrival.

That's why I'm proud to work with Josh on this so that we can provide real relief to our constituents. If New York State is serious about moving forward with this, then it's clear they don't need federal support and they can fund the MTA on their own.

Brian Lehrer: Now I'm going to put you in dialogue here with MTA Chair and CEO, Janno Lieber, who was on the show in August, specifically to defend congestion pricing. I've got three clips and I'll invite your reactions. First, here is Chairman Lieber in an answer that was explaining the goals of congestion pricing. I know it won't surprise you that he put the goals very differently than you two did, which included, according to him doing our region's part to fight climate change and to raise revenue to make mass transit even more accessible to what he says is the 90% of commuters to Manhattan's business district who already come in via mass transit.

Janno Lieber: It is also contributing to traffic violence. Actually trying to discourage single occupancy drivers from bringing automobiles and trucks into the central business district is the goal. It's an air quality issue, it's a health issue, it is a congestion and economy issue. It's also about trying to cut down on traffic violence because as I said, when London did congestion pricing and had these tolls around its central business district, injuries to pedestrians from automobiles went down by half.

Brian Lehrer: Chairman Lieber there. What's your reaction to that, including the traffic fatalities part as exemplified by London, he says? Also, do you support the core goals of reducing car travel overall for climate reasons and to fund mass transit projects? Congressman Lawler, you want to go first this time?

Congressman Lawler: Well, it's interesting that he talks about car fatalities when you see an increase in fatalities of people being pushed in front of oncoming subways. If we want to talk about reducing fatalities, and frankly, increasing ridership, we need to make sure that the MTA is safe and that the use of our subways is safe for commuters. That's part of the reason why you've seen such an uptick, frankly, in the number of people using Lyft and Uber to commute in the downtown business district, so that means that-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Well, he would say, because I asked him that question at that time. Right now, Mayor Adams says subway crime is back to pre-pandemic levels and certainly the number of increased traffic fatalities in the pandemic era doesn't-- it so far outstrips the number of subway crime fatalities, right?

Congressman Lawler: Well, certainly, and you need to continue to ensure that the safety of the subway is paramount and that people feel safe so that they actually do want to ride on the subways. Again, when talking about the environment and the need to reduce congestion, of course, we all want to reduce carbon emissions and we want to ensure clean air. The problem here is that this is just going to shift congestion from Midtown Manhattan to other communities across New York City or just across the river in New Jersey. You're going to see other communities, including those that can least afford it, be negatively impacted by that congestion.

I think if you want to start tackling the issue of congestion, number one, we should reevaluate Uber and Lyft and how they're operating within the city. Number two, you should look at the fact that whole entire lanes are being blocked for restaurants as well as pedestrian locations. You have to look at how the city has basically taken up so much of its roadways over the last many years, reducing the access for cars, which has helped clog up the streets of New York City.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Gottheimer, what about the climate goals? You're a Democrat, your party speaks very frequently about contributing to a reduction in climate emissions. That's a core goal of congestion pricing.

Congressman Gottheimer: By the way, a core goal of mine, but here's the unfortunate reality. If this were about the environment, what I understand is the MTA is taking literally every nickel to deal with their mismanagement instead of giving anything to deal with Jersey drivers going back and forth with public transit. Not a nickel of this money that they're spending is actually to help public transit here. If you live in a lot of parts of Northern New Jersey, there just aren't public transit options. If you're a nurse- -going in in the morning, or coming home in the evening, or a restaurant worker, there just aren't options for you. You have to drive. There's no other choice. The last bus at the town where I live back to Jersey is actually 6:25 PM. The latest in the morning at 7:30 AM. There just aren't options for people. [unintelligible 00:10:20] One other thing I might just add Brian really fast.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Congressman Gottheimer: Can I just have one other thing on the environment, which I think is very important? What they're, all of the MTA’s proposals, and this is all in their proposal, what they've all said is that the price of going in will get more expensive for cars and for trucks and you'll get a discount and all of their options for going through the tunnels. What's going to happen is all the trucks are going to move to the Bridge in New Jersey, GW Bridge, more cars will back up at the tunnels, you'll have a lot more truck pollution in Northern New Jersey by Fort Lee in that area.

Going to the outer boroughs where there's more lower-income families is actually going to lead to more pollution there, which is why a lot of members of Congress and officials have come out against it because you're going to hurt children in low-income families with more truck pollution. You're going to actually have a lot more traffic by the tunnels and it’s headed to 60th Street and Midtown. You have more congestion, more pollution. Again, it doesn't solve the problems they're claiming. This is just for money for the MTA's mismanagement, so don't call it anything else. They're trying to hide it and masquerade it in something else. This is just a massive cash grab to line their pockets for their awful mismanagement over the years.

Brian Lehrer: I'll tell you in a minute what he said about cash grab. On the point that you just made about this is about nurses and restaurant workers who have no other choice, Lieber said on the show several times that 90% of the commuters from New Jersey to Manhattan below 60th Street do use mass transit. When you cite those kinds of working-class jobs, on the question of who benefits from driving into the city, Lieber says it's the economically better off who the current no congestion pricing system benefits. Listen to the second clip.

Janno Lieber: Mass transit’s one of the things that makes New York affordable and it's clearly a benefit to people lower on the economic spectrum to do this. If people are driving to the Central Business District, we're forgetting that they're probably paying $30 to $50 to park. Is obviously generally speaking, and I don't want to universalize it, but generally speaking, it's a better-off group of people who are coming to New York by automobile and already paying all the costs associated with that. We want a benefit to folks, the 90% of people who depend on mass transit, who are already using mass transit, that's where our priority lies, honestly.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Lawler, I know you were trying to get in there. According to him, you're defending in general the wealthier commuters from your districts by digging in on this. Do you dispute that?

Congressman Lawler: 1,000%. Here's the problem, you have cops, you have firefighters. 50% of households in my district have a cop, or a firefighter, or veteran, or first responder living in it. They oftentimes have to drive in. All he's doing is adding on to their cost of parking, of gas, of tolls over the George Washington Bridge or other bridges. He's adding an additional $23 to that because the reality for Rockland County commuters especially, we don't have a one-seat ride. We don't have significant express rail service options. We don't have busing options like other parts of the MTA regions so we are forced to drive. About half of the commuters into New York City in Rockland County do drive.

I think he is totally discounting. These are working-class people. On top of it all, this is what is so galling, the governor just announced in her proposed budget a payroll tax on businesses in the MTA region to help fund the MTA even further. Another $1.3 billion in taxes to be collected proposed by the governor in this new budget to go to the MTA, in addition to the over $1 billion they're projecting from congestion pricing. That's why Congressman Gottheimer and I are saying, if New York is going to go this route, if they are going to continue to nickel and dime commuters, and businesses, and residents within the MTA region, if they are going to bring harm to New Jersey residents and Connecticut residents, then they don't need the federal government support. We'll take the $2 billion in federal aid and create a tax credit for these commuters who are forced to pay for it.

[crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: All right, I know you guys both go in a minute. Wait, Congressman Gottheimer, since I know you both have to go in a minute, I want to play one more clip of MTA chair Lieber. This one, Congressman Gottheimer doesn't name you by name, but I'd say it's pretty clear that it's for you, and maybe some of your neighboring New Jersey Democratic members. I think it goes to this idea that you brought up a couple of times that this is a cash grab for people from outside the city. Listen.

Janno Lieber: We see again a lot of these congressmen who are yelling and screaming about double taxation. I haven't heard from the congressman from Bergen County his offer to give New Yorkers a discount or a credit on the Garden State Parkway. When they pay tolls to go to New Jersey, shouldn't by his logic, they get a discount on the Garden State Parkway?

Brian Lehrer: How about that reciprocity Congressman, since he argues in the regional economy, commuting doesn't just go one way?

Congressman Gottheimer: Listen, I think that if they're ready to have that conversation about their highways, and our highways, and actually cooperating together like we have with the Port Authority for 100-plus years, I'm happy to have that conversation, but they're giving nothing to us. I think Janno has spent a lot of time with the quiche eating, wine sipping crowds, which is why he doesn't actually understand, as Mike said, the hard-working folks, the nurses and the restaurant workers, the Uber drivers, and what this is going to do to them and their lives, $5,000 a year new tax.

I'm happy to have them come to Jersey, and I'm sure Mike in a way to have him come where he lives, to actually meet a lot of these folks who are going to face this, like cops and firefighters who are going to face this new tax will show him the reality. Maybe he's got so much money sitting around there, they can just throw it around and pay an extra $23 a day, but the folks that I speak to, they can't afford it, it's completely outrageous. When they figure out how they literally lost $500 million last year at the MTA from fare skippers, people were jumping over the turnstile.

When they get their operation under control, and they fix their books and start running a better operation, maybe we can have a conversation about going forward together here, but for right now, I would hope they back off of this.

Brian Lehrer: I know you both got to go. Let me just back off this whole topic and say, no matter how anybody feels about it, and they've now heard Chairman Lieber's arguments on this show, they now heard your arguments on this show, do you two have any other bipartisan things that you're working on? We're in such a partisan time. You two are both known for not being in the most partisan camps of your parties. Can you build on this Congressman Lawler?

Congressman Lawler: Absolutely, and we already are. Both of us are part of the SALT Caucus, which Josh co-leads. We are working together on legislation to tackle SALT in addition to congestion pricing here. Both of us live in high-tax areas, and we understand the need to make it more affordable for our residents. There's a lot of area of agreement also on foreign policy initiatives, especially surrounding Israel, and fighting back against antisemitism. Josh and I are already quick friends and getting to work on a number of initiatives that will benefit both of our constituents in neighboring districts.

Congressman Gottheimer: I'm very excited to have Mike in Congress as a partner working together because we’ve shown in the last couple of years how much we can actually do when we work together. The infrastructure bill, which I was very happy to be part of crafting and passing, obviously invests in the infrastructure we're talking about, and mass transit, and building the gateway train tunnel, things that we need in the future to make things better here. Hopefully, we'll have enough mass transit that we never have to have this debate again, but we are where we are.

I'll tell you right now, though, the opportunities are huge for bipartisan governing. We're working together to deal with the debt ceiling issue and make sure we don't default as a country, which would be unacceptable. On immigration reform, mental health, opioids, there's so much we can do together as we showed last Congress on bipartisan veterans’ legislation and gun legislation that we passed working together and supporting our veterans. All of these things we can do if we work together and put country first. I know Mike and I are focused on that. We're going to keep doing it.

I'm looking forward to sitting down with the MTA, I know Mike is, and working this out. We've been asking to try to work this out, but the answer is not just to stick it to us without the real conversation.

Brian Lehrer: We look forward to perhaps having the two of you on together to talk about more bipartisan things, and of course, we'll continue to invite each of you separately. Congressman Mike Lawler from New York, Congressman Josh Gottheimer from New Jersey, the first a Republican, the second a Democrat. Thank you both so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

Congressman Gottheimer: Thank so much, and thanks, Mike.

Congressman Lawler: Thanks, Brian. Thanks, Josh.

Congressman Gottheimer: Thanks so much. Bye-bye.

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.