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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Did you see the video last month showing two New York City sanitation workers tossing fresh produce into the back of their garbage truck? That video went viral. Lots of people saw it and were horrified for several different reasons. One, they were breaking down a fruit and vegetable stand operated by Diana Hernandez Cruz, a 36-year-old street vendor on Pelham Parkway in White Plains Road in the Bronx, who was just trying to eke out a living in tough COVID times, though yes, she was unlicensed.

Two, the discarding of the food itself in the middle of a pandemic, where one in five Bronxites don't have enough to eat, says the Street Vendor Project, an advocacy group. This is beyond wrong. Now, some brick-and-mortar establishments say that when anybody can just set up on the street, that hurts small businesses in the city, who have to pay property taxes and rent, and other expenses.

Earlier this year, city council passed a street vendor reform law, which is supposed to add hundreds of new vendor permits a year, to legalize some vendors who you may be very likely buying food or other things from, but also to introduce better enforcement to preserve the rights of the store owners who pay rent and consider the vendors' competition unfair. So far, it seems like both sides are dissatisfied with the rollout. With me now is Mohamed Attia, director of the Urban Justice Center Street Vendor Project, that advocacy group. Good morning, Mohamed. Welcome back to WNYC. Thank you for doing this.

Mohamed: Good morning, Brian. Thanks for having me again.

Brian: Listeners, we invite your voices on this. Anybody listening right now who is a street vendor, we invite your call, 646-435-7280, licensed or unlicensed street vendors, anybody out there listening right now, staying out of the rain, home listening to the radio, and available to call in 646-435-7280.

Also, if you own a brick-and-mortar store, or work at one, or manage one, feel you have unfair competition from street vendors, we invite your voices too, 646-435-7280, 646-435-7280, or anyone else with a direct connection or other interest in this topic.

Mohamed, are there any viable estimates, first of all, for how many street vendors there are in total, licensed and unlicensed, on the streets of New York?

Mohamed: Well, we estimate about 20,000 street vendors across the city, whether they are licensed or unlicensed.

Brian: Has that changed, like gone up, I would guess, if anything, during the pandemic?

Mohamed: We would say yes. During the pandemic, we have seen an uptake on the number of new vendors. A lot of New Yorkers have lost their jobs, lost their businesses. They went to street vending just because that's the easiest thing they can do to try to find a way to support their families and put food on the table while the whole economy is struggling and trying to recover now.

Brian: Plus I imagine there was more demand because a lot of people were trying to avoid going into stores for a lot of the last year and a half.

Mohamed: Well, I would say yes. We have seen in different neighborhoods street vendors where the only places where you could get fresh produce, or PPEs, or some essential products that the community relies on.

Brian: That video from Pelham Parkway with dismantling Diana Hernandez Cruz's produce stand and throwing the fresh produce into the sanitation track, Pelham Parkway in White Plains Road. What happened there?

Mohamed: Well, what happened there is what's been happening over the last 20 or 30 years. The enforcement agencies will come down to a vendor, ask them for permits or licenses. If they don't have it, they will just write them summonses, take all their supply and throw it in the garbage truck.

What I just want to highlight to people that this, what happened that we saw, that was not an isolated incident. It is something that has been happening for so long. What happened the day that the NYPD stopped by Diana's stand, asked her for a permit, she said, "I don't have a permit because I can't get one," and they called the sanitation trucks and they just threw everything away in the garbage truck.

Brian: Just with respect to the food, what's the policy on that? Are they supposed to take fresh produce from an unlicensed produce stand and throw it away when people are going hungry?

Mohamed: I know it's disappointing to say that, but yes, this is the policy. This is what the Department of Health and Department of Sanitation, and NYPD have been doing for decades. Even a couple of years ago, we sued the city over throwing hundreds of vendors' products and equipment without vouchering it when people are unlicensed or unpermitted. We were able to get more than $200,000 back to the vendors, just for the city's wrong and what they have been doing. When it gets to perishable items like the food, in the city's policy, it states that they can, or they should throw away all of the perishable food.

Brian: From what I've read, the policy is because they can't verify the safe chain of custody of something that's a piece of fresh food, not like something that's in a sealed package. Do you dispute that as a necessary safety measure?

Mohamed: I would say no. It doesn't make any sense because they could have gotten a health department inspector on-site to inspect this food and make sure that this is fresh, that just got out of the Hunts Point Market few hours before the incident. They could have done that, but sadly, the city agencies just chose to do what's easier for them, which is getting rid of everything, which is really disappointing because it goes back to the dilemma of the vending system we are dealing with.

A lot of people are not aware of what's happening there, why this happened in the first place. People think, "Oh, the sanitation and the NYPD are just doing their job," which is really not about them doing their job, as it's about the unfairness that Diana is dealing with. A lot of people are not aware why Diana doesn't have a permit.

Diana went many years ago to the Department of Consumers and Workers Protection to apply for a food vending permit, and people said, "No, you can't get a permit because we don't offer anyone." What happened with Diana has been happening in the past, and will keep continuing, will keep happening every day with vendors across the city unless the city and the state government take a huge step towards reforming the whole industry.

Brian: Well, if you're a street vendor operating without a permit, like Ms. Cruz, do you get some warning, or does your stand get destroyed at the first strike?

Mohamed: Well, it's very rare that the enforcement agencies will give warnings to vendors. It's very, very rare. What we have seen more likely is people will get slammed with the tickets, fines that cost up to $1,000 for not having the right permits, and usually the stands will be confiscated and everything will be thrown away.

Brian: The city council this year lifted the cap on licenses for street vendors. Over the next 10 years, as you know, they are supposed to up the permits they issue by 4400 a year for the next 10 years. There was a story in Crain's recently that characterized the move as disappointing for both street vendors and brick-and-mortar establishments, at least the rollout of it so far. If you think that's an accurate characterization, and clearly, you represent the vendors, but can you say why street vendors are unhappy with that number, and the way it's been implemented so far, and what you think the brick-and-mortar side of it is?

Mohamed: From the vendors' side, I think people are disappointed because it will take so long for the vendors community to feel the impact of these new permits. The legislation passed nine months ago and permits are not out yet, they're going to start rolling out in July next year. It will take many years for the vendors' community to feel that. In the meantime, the enforcement is not stopping. The enforcement is not giving the vendors a break. The enforcement are out there giving the vendors tickets, and taking vendors' supply and inventory.

It's a situation where the vendors are still criminalized. They are still being ticketed, and being subject to crackdown by any enforcement agencies whenever somebody makes a complaint or even without any complaints happened. We don't assume that any complaints were made against Diana who's such an amazing person and a part of the community for many years.

This is why it's really disappointing, and that's why we are asking the state government to move forward with the legislation to lift the caps entirely because this is what the vendors community want. This is what people believe is the answer to this dilemma that we are dealing with. Legislation is already there.

Brian: Let me take a phone call that I think is going to articulate the brick-and-mortar store owners' point of view. Adrian in the East Village, you're on WNYC. Hello, Adrian.

Adrian: Yes. I don't own a store, but I do think it's unfair. For instance, Trader Joe's on 14th Street, there's a huge fruit vendor right in front of them. It's direct competition. They don't pay any taxes, and the city for some reason has put a cap on it, and people choose to break the law. No, I'm sorry. This is very unfair to store owners. That's my opinion.

Brian: Adrian, thank you. Mohamed, as an advocate for the vendors, what do you say to those store owners?

Mohamed: Well, that's a great point. I can't pick a better corner to talk about the Trader Joe's at 14th Street because-- Let me just clarify a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation out there. One, the fresh produce vendor over there is one of our members, and they have been there at least 15 years before Trader Joe's opened. If you talk about who came first to this corner, the vendor were there.

Second, talking about how this vendor is not paying taxes, this is wrong. The street vendors, all street vendors, whether they are licensed or not, they do pay taxes. They pay the sales taxes. They pay the business taxes, whether they have the corporation structured or they pay their individual personal taxes.

Everybody have the exact list of expenses that a brick-and-mortar have, but it's in a very different scale. We can just do a quick survey and stand by the vendor stand and see how many customers come to them and then count how many customers come to Trader Joe's. I think you will see that there's a really huge difference in the number. They do pay taxes. They pay rent to the commissary they park at.

They don't get their supply for free. They buy it even for more expensive prices just because their business model is smaller, so they don't really get access to a bigger corporation and bigger sources and give them better prices. They do pay workers compensation. They do pay everything that any legitimate business has, but of course, on a different scale.

Brian: I think the example the caller brought up was probably not the best example because we probably don't have to worry about Trader Joe's or any other big chain, let's say. What about the vendors who set up outside a mom-and-pop store on White Plains Road or on Fordham Road where these kinds of conflicts also take place? Is it fair to them?

Mohamed: It's pretty much the same. I would say, Brian, you see that the vendors usually provide different products to what's being sold in the store. People are not going to just sit up in front of a brick-and-mortar and sell exactly the same product, whether it's regular merchandise or it's food, unprepared food. We have seen that in many places.

When it gets to fairness, well, what's wrong about having another small business set up right next door? We see coffee shops one next to the other, whether it's big chains or a brick-and-mortar, a mom-and-pops. We have seen them. I think if we believe in a free market, a free market should be equitable and fair for everyone.

If people think that the vendors are out there for free, they are wrong. They need to be educated. They need to understand that vendors are not out there for free. They do have all the business expenses you have but in a very different scale.

Brian: The coordinating agency for all street vending activity is the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection formerly known as the Department of Consumer Affairs. In September, Mayor de Blasio appointed a new commissioner, Peter Hatch. He had previously been the COVID-19 Public-Private Partnership's czar. What kind of a partner has that office been to street vendors in your opinion, and what would you like to see from Peter Hatch?

Mohamed: We would like to see better enforcement. We would like to see that DCWP is the main agency for real. We would like to see them stepping up and preventing the NYPD from doing something that's not their job anymore. We have seen the mayor's announcement last year naming that the NYPD should no longer get involved with the street vendor enforcement, which is one related item to what happened that day with Diana.

We'd really love to see more partnership with us. I really want to thank the commissioner and thank the whole department for the great partnership with us at the Street Vendor Project and other groups. They have been joining our resource fairs to educate the community about their understanding to the rules and regulations, and that is really helpful.

Brian: Has de Blasio withdrawn the NYPD from enforcement of unlicensed street vendor presence?

Mohamed: He said that on paper. We do have the document that went to the NYPD's leadership, and it stated a date which was January 15th of this year, but we have seen in the past and just more recently with Diana's incident that it was not Department of Consumer and Worker Protection agents. It was the NYPD who interacted with Diana, and that was really disappointing.

Brian: Hey, what happened to Diana?

Mohamed: The NYPD approached her and asked her for a permit. That's how it all started.

Brian: I mean what's happened since the video went viral? There's obviously a lot of public sympathy for her.

Mohamed: Yes, I think a lot has happened since then. Even the same day, at the same incident moment during the video was taking, I think after the pressure from the community because dozens of people were out there supporting Diana outraged about the fresh produce being thrown away, the NYPD and the Sanitation Department agents left. Diana felt so supported by the community, and she gave away all the remaining fresh produce to people passing by, thanking them for their great support.

She was able to get back on her feet little by little the following day. We have seen other videos with really smaller supplies, smaller inventory on her table. We have seen a lot of community members stopping by, supporting her financially, and giving her money. Even a group of amazing people started a GoFundMe page for her that raised more than $15,000 so far. That will go directly to Diana to help her recover from that loss.

Brian: It gives you a little bit of faith in humanity, right?

Mohamed: Indeed. There is always hope and always a lot of great people out there.

Brian: Kara in Woodside, you're on WNYC. Hello, Kara.

Kara: Hi, Brian. Thanks for taking my call. I sell handmade jewelry in the East Village with some of my friends that sell secondhand clothing and art. We would love to get permits, but unfortunately, we can't. They're capped.

The point is, for me, there used to be all these little cute stores in the East Village, but now, there are no more brick-and-mortar stores. People love coming up to us and buying things. It's wearable art, cool vintage clothing, and things like that. We're not competing with any brick-and-mortar stores anymore because there just aren't any. They've all closed.

Brian: You mean those kinds of stores have closed, right?

Kara: Yes.

Brian: There's corporatization of even the East Village?

Kara: Right. We have lots of customers that are very excited to see us, but we're there, we're kind of afraid that any minute the police would come along and ticket us. Like I said, I would love to get a permit. I can't. There's certain art that is protected, the First Amendment art if it's printable art or frameable 2D kind of things, but for jewelry and things that you wear or wearable art and for vintage clothing and things like that, we're not competing with any stores.

Like I said, we'd love to be able to get a permit, but right now, we have to operate without one. It's hard to want to do the right thing and also provide fun jewelry and things for people to buy. [chuckles]

Brian: Kara, thank you very much for your call. Linda in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Linda.

Linda: Hey, hello. I'm not a first-time caller. I love the show. Yes, I live off of Kingsbridge. I've been here 45 years. We have a bazaar of vendors up the block here. This area has lots of small mom-and-pop stores, and half the vendors are selling the same thing. It's old clothes. I don't see the need for them.

I totally respect their entrepreneurship. However, we have rights also. This place has totally transformed. The police have pretty much given up, I guess. They haven't come around. We get no police presence here, follow up what these people are doing. You see, there's a lot of dirt on the streets, it's a very noisy street, used to be a pleasant street. No longer a pleasant street. There is a lot of traffic but now on top of the traffic, we've got the vendors. It's become really way overpopulated.

Brian: Linda, Kingsbridge Road is a major commercial thoroughfare. I was just there the other day. Is anybody getting hurt by the presence of these vendors? I would guess that there are not a lot of used clothing stores that they're competing with since you said that's mostly what they're selling.

Linda: No. There's not a lot of used clothing stores. We used to have the Salvation Army on Broadway which is not that far from here but I don't really see a lot of people stopping and buying.

I think one of the reasons also that I'm concerned is I know that the city does have a policy in issuing licenses. There is a reason. When the city has a quota, it has a quota. There's got to be a reason. Other than maybe some used clothing is beneficial but to have more than half of the vendors be the same kind of product, day in and day out, there's a lot of stores in the area that I know have to be affected. It's true.

Brian: Linda, thank you very much. Mohamed, we just have a minute left for you representing street vendors at the Street Vendor Project. You estimated at the beginning of the segment 20,000 vendors on the streets of New York. They're giving out only 400 new licenses a year under these reforms. What's your best advice to the vendors? They're still most of them going to have to wait years to be legal. We hear the complaints about over-enforcement and under-enforcement regarding the ones who were there now. Our last 30 seconds are yours.

Mohamed: The advice is for every single vendor and every New Yorker who care about street vendors to call their state legislator, ask them to support the state legislation S.1175 sponsored by state senator Jessica Ramos and Assemblymember Jessica Gonzalez-Roja. That's the only solution. That's the only way. I can't go ask a vendor to stop vending or stop making a living till the city and the state government do their job and fix such a broken system.

Brian: Mohamed Attia, leader of the Street Vendors Project. Thank you so much.

Mohamed: Thank you so much, Brian.

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