Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we're going to continue the conversation we had Wednesday night, in case you tuned in or in case you missed it when we introduced the winners of the fourth annual Lehrer Prize for Community Well-Being. We pick three worthy recipients each year who look out for their neighbors in some meaningful way. This year the theme was helping the asylum seekers, our estimated 175,000 new neighbors arriving courtesy of Texas Governor Greg Abbott since 2022.

Whatever you think about US immigration policy, I think we can all understand and agree that these are human beings who undertook a dangerous trip because they thought getting here would be better than staying where they were. We asked you for nominations. Some of you remember we did that on the air back in the fall. We had the hard task of narrowing that list because there were a lot of people who stepped up to help the asylum seekers. Narrowing that list to three winners, but we managed.

We're joined now by the leaders of the three organizations we cited for doing this hard work. They are Power Malu, founder of Artists Athletes Activists. One of the groups that actually meets the migrants when they first arrive in New York City by bus or more recently train on their first steps on New York soil, if you can call Port Authority soil. Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo, an attorney, community activist, and the founder of the Jackson Heights Immigrant Center.

Who holds workshops to walk new immigrants, 40 at a time, through the process of applying for asylum, and eventually qualifying for work permits. Jesus Aguais, president of Aid for Life, and a Venezuelan immigrant himself. Remember, the largest number of the recent asylum seekers do come from Venezuela. His group offers weekly jornadas, workday projects to connect new arrivals with needed services and with each other. Again, congratulations to all three of you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Power Malu: Thank you so much, Brian.

Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo: Thank you, Brian.

Jesus Aguais: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: I thought that the three of you were so great together when we had that portion of Wednesday night show where you all got to talk to each other, that there was so much more to be said. We invited you back on for the morning show for it today. For those who missed this special, let me go around the room just real quick and have you tell us briefly again about your organization, and how you define your core mission. I know somebody's ringing the doorbell for one of you there, you can go get it if you have to, with respect to helping the asylum seekers. Jesus, can you start or do you have to answer the door?

Jesus Aguais: No. No, I don't have to answer any door, I can start. I am Jesus Aguais. I'm the founder of Aid for Life. It's an organization that will be expanded from that variation of our organization. AID for AIDS is to support asylum seekers in Latin America. That's happened 7 years ago when the Venezuelans started literally walking out of Venezuela due to the complex humanitarian emergency that was going on in the country. There's a phenomenon that started happening. We call those immigrants caminantes, the walkers. They were literally walking out of the country and walking the longest distance.

Venezuelans were walking south. That migration started Colombia, Peru, going to Argentina. People were walking all South America. We got to know them, we served them in South America. When the crisis started in New York in 2022, and that was June, July when Governor Abbott started sending it to New York, we step in. We knew the people. That was the same Venezuelan, the same walkers, same caminantes. They walked south. Now, they walk north, something that I never ever imagined that was going to happen. Crossing the jungle, the Darién Gap, 70 miles, and we started serving them in New York.

Brian Lehrer: Power Malu, very briefly, your organization.

Power Malu: My organization is Artists Athletes Activists. I started my advocacy work as a child when I would translate for my mom when she seeked help at the Department of Social Services and didn't speak the language. Since a child, I became an advocate, and when the buses started arriving to Port Authority, our organization was there. We were with Ilze Thielmann, and Adama Bah. We had a bunch of volunteers. It turned into basically me getting on the bus and welcoming the migrants, and just letting them know a little bit breakdown of what to expect.

Then that quickly transitioned into case management because we started seeing that there were a lot of politicians that would show up to Port Authority for the photo ops because this was a popular topic, but no one really wanted to get their hands in the game. They wanted to play hot potato and use the migrants as political pawn. We decided that we were going to stay there, and we've outlasted every city agency. We've been receiving every single bus that has been coming through the Port Authority.

Now, they're coming in through New Jersey by way of Penn Station to New York City, and we're there to receive them as well. From there, we exchange information and make sure that we follow up with them, and help them along their process. We advocate for them, and we've been doing this since day one. Our organization is very proud of our volunteers and all the New Yorkers that have stepped up. We have connected with beautiful organizations that have created covenants and have basically stepped up in the name of representing true Yorkers.

Brian Lehrer: True Yorkers. Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo, a true New Yorker yourself, give us a little background about the Jackson Heights Immigrant Center.

Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo: Sure. After a long time of activism here in Jackson Heights, Queens, back in 2021, when all the immigrants started flooding into our Jackson Heights neighborhood, I said we had to do something. Over a year ago, I started the Jackson Heights Immigrant Center here in Jackson Heights, Queens. What we do is three days a week, we hold a clinic for newly arrived immigrants. For about two hours, 90 minutes as a class, we explained immigration process to them. Then with a team of volunteers, most of them newly arrived neighbors themselves, we go through and help them file the asylum application that same day.

We've helped over 2,000 families apply for asylum. We try to go through 20 to 30 applications each day, starting at 10:00 AM and going up till midnight. What's wonderful about it is it's mainly newly arrived immigrants helping newly arrived immigrants. Immigrants helping their newest neighbors go through this process because who's better to help someone than someone who's been through it themselves, who understands the frustrations and joys, and hopes of coming to a new country? We really just help them through the process.

Brian Lehrer: Since you're all having so much contact with individual asylum seekers, and I think the media generally treats them so much as a group, as a large mass. I wonder if you could each talk about your impression from having met so many now. Nuala, I'll stay with you and go the other direction this time, around the horn. Are these the most ambitious people from their countries who are willing to take this new life on and the risks that come with it? We often hear that immigrants, in general, are the risk takers from their countries, or are they the most desperate to escape the worst conditions or some combination?

Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo: It's a bit of a combination, but I think the true word here is hope. They have this wonderful positive energy and this hope for the future, and that with a bit more effort, they're going to get there. They're going to be able to overcome whatever happened to them in their country by this new journey to America. They've got this huge amount of hope, which is just unending, and it's wonderful to work with that positive energy.

Brian Lehrer: How about for you, Power, are these the most ambitious people from their countries or the most desperate or something in between?

Power Malu: It's definitely a combination in between. We have a resource center one block from Port Authority. We used to do triage inside Port Authority, so we would listen to their stories and listen to their needs and work on-- basically, helping to stabilize their immediate needs. This resource center that we have is for ROCCP, resources, opportunities, community, connections, and partnership with RMM at the Metro Baptist Church. There, we hear an array of stories. Yes, they are desperate. Yes, they are desperate because they have escaped the situation back home.

Throughout their journey, there has been horrific things that they've witnessed that some of them have experienced. We are just basically trying to help them along this journey so that they can become self-sufficient. Some of the stories are really sad when you hear them, but they do have that hope. They do have that drive and that will to be able to contribute to society. None of them want to stay in this shelter system, so I think that it's important for New Yorkers to know that these are people that are ready to work, these are people that are ready to contribute to our society. It's no different than the thousands and thousands of other migrants that have arrived and the immigrants that have helped to build the city.

They come here ready and prepared to contribute to the fabric of our society. Regardless of what they've been through, I think that we should applaud and thank them for shining a light on a system here in New York City that has been in shambles since before they got here, but yet they're being blamed for it. I think that it's an opportunity for us to do right by them, and to also be able to change the narrative and welcome them with dignity. That's exactly what we do when we welcome them at all ports of entry, and then help them along their journey.

Brian Lehrer: We had an immigration expert on the show recently, Power, who was not talking specifically about the migrants to New York, but global migration generally. He was saying, "You know, it's actually generally not the poorest people who leave a particular country." We think of the Statue of Liberty inscription, "Give me your tired, your poor," and yet, you have to have some money to take the journey. You were talking to me Wednesday night, Power, about people from Mauritania-

Power Malu: Absolutely.

Brian Lehrer: -who are starting to come now in West Africa, escaping literal slavery over there and some other hardships. Well, they have to buy an airplane ticket to fly to Central America and then come here. I'm curious how you see that.

Power Malu: What happens is the desperation also sets in because they actually have to borrow money. Many of them have to borrow money to escape the situation that they're in, which is more of a reason why when they come here, they're ready to work to be able to pay back that debt. A lot of them are escaping persecution. My partner and colleague, Adama Bah, has hundreds of migrants that go to visit her at her office. She was the first person that rang the alarm when the Africans were arriving to New York City.

She does great work along with other organizations, even a Detroit-based organization where they actually have to pay their bond to get out of detention because the Africans are given a bond, unlike other migrants when they are detained. There are a lot of different things that go on that we're not aware of as just New Yorkers going on our daily lives. These people struggle a lot, they suffer, and they are coming over here with a debt already, and they have to pay that back. That even gives them more fuel to get out there and get their own. Then they just don't want to be a burden, as many people have called them a burden, and they're actually a blessing.

They come here prepared to work and prepare to contribute, and they are grateful for everything that they are getting, and for the opportunity that they have. They all deserve that chance. Yes, they are escaping slavery. Yes, they are escaping persecution, they are escaping horrific conditions and they take that journey. Imagine taking that journey all the way from Africa, or from Afghanistan, we have immigrants coming from all over the world, and they're just ready to contribute and ready to be part of our society.

Brian Lehrer: Jesus, for you, as someone who came from Venezuela, and seeing so many Venezuelans come now, do you think the folks who are coming from Venezuela are different, let's say politically, from the people who are coming from elsewhere? I think some of the earlier waves of Venezuelans to this country, and correct me if I'm wrong, have been relatively politically conservative, fleeing people like Hugo Chávez coming from what one might call a left-wing dictatorship.

Just like a lot of people who came from the former Soviet Union, and the Soviet Bloc at that time, tended to be a little more skeptical of liberal Democrats. Because they saw the risk of that falling into the dangerous socialism that they were oppressed by over there. I'm curious if today's Venezuelan, large number of people coming to New York, are different politically than the people coming from Guatemala or Honduras, let's say?

Jesus Aguais: Yes, that's a good question. There's around a million Venezuelans around the world since 2015. The wave of Venezuelan coming to New York, I describe them as the most resilient and I describe them as survivors. They have very little political view, these people has been struggling for the past 20 years, all they want is to survive. They want to have a better life. They are the result of a broken system, they are the result of horrible situations, including xenophobia in other Latin American countries.

Here is to have a new life, and as has been described before, all they want to do is to work, is to be able to provide for themselves. We have support over 25,000 asylum seekers in this past year and a half, where we go through an intake process, we do referrals, we have apply, sent about 1000 asylum applications, and we follow up on the people. With the Venezuelan in particular, what we have now is those that came by plane, and those that came by walk-in, those that walked through the United States.

The one that walked to the United States surpassed a number of those that came by plane, which is a struggle because of the political point of view with the US politics, and that seems like a second-class citizens. We are committed, again, to treat them with dignity to recognize them. Also South Americans, for instance, we have a people who actually, yes, they also getting to debt, they get money to pay the journey, but even to cross the Darién Gap which is led by organized crime, they have to pay.

We have supported people that they got money from the Colombian guerrillas. If they don't pay the $1,000, they threaten whatever family members they still have behind. These people do have to pay, but as resilience they do whatever it takes. They put their families in the line just to make that journey, and then they have that burden that they have to pay that debt. What we have found is through this they have normalized persecution. That ability of survival, that struggle, that persecution, they normalize it because all they want is to provide for their families.

Brian Lehrer: Few more minutes with the three winners of this year's Lehrer Prize for Community Well-Being. Our category this year was helping the asylum seekers and we're here with Power Malu, founder of Artists Athletes Activists. Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo, an attorney, community activist, and the founder of the Jackson Heights Immigration Center or Immigrant Center, and Jesus Aguais who was just speaking, president of Aid for Life, and a Venezuelan immigrant himself.

Actually, I want to stay with you Jesus for one more call, and we were talking about the politics. One might think that Republicans would welcome a lot of Venezuelan migrants like they once welcomed a lot of Cuban migrants who turned out in large numbers to be Republicans after they escaped Castro. Yet we see the Republicans saying, "Shut the border, shut the border, shut the border." Does it make sense to you?

Jesus Aguais: No, it makes no sense. In fact, that's when you see the difference, that those that arrive by plane and those that are actually walk to the south border of the United States, and somehow these ones are criminals and the previous ones are not. That's part of the political narrative that, unfortunately, is what's around. We have that out to people, like 40% of the people that come to New York has a college degree, 60% of them finish high school, and 80% of them has some kind of formal plumbers, the professional construction workers.

This is true with other nationalities, but let's go to Venezuelans alone. If we give them work permits now, these people will contribute millions to the economy. They will get into the economic ecosystem of not only the city by the United States. Unfortunately, there is no vision. I don't know what it is, is horrible what's going on, and we need to highlight that these people that are coming, they are people ready to contribute and that's all they want to do. We're here to help them make sure that that happens.

Brian Lehrer: I want to get at least a couple of you to comment on the migrant story that's been the most in the news in New York this week. That is the attack on the police officers outside the shelter in Times Square, which has even become national news. I was curious to get your reactions. I'm sure you won't defend that kind of violence, but I wonder if you can add context. Nuala, if you might want to start, if you've been thinking about this at all, to offer an explanation, if there is an explanation, beyond what right-wing media might give.

Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo: Sure. No one can condone the activity.

Jesus Aguais: No, go ahead.

Brian Lehrer: Nuala's turn. Let it go. Go ahead.

Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo: Sure. No one can condone the activity, but I think what you see is a frustration. You see families come here after this two, three, four-month journey here, they finally get set up. One of the things a lot of them invest in are not motorcycles but mopeds to make deliveries. You see then the NYPD go outside of shelters and confiscate hundreds of mopeds at a time, taking away all their earnings and their hope for future earnings. You see immigrants are told, go to this place and apply for this, and go here and apply for that, but they don't have money for a MetroCard, and then they get ticketed for jumping a turnstile.

It's a system set up against you, and what I think you see there is some frustration. I think whenever we deal with our newest neighbors, we have to understand that they're in a system they don't understand. They might not understand who that person was, who they were attacking, and that they don't understand that the systems here are different. We need to be a little patient and explain what the system is here, and to make sure that they understand it. They want nothing more than to assimilate and participate and grow and thrive here in the United States.

Brian Lehrer: Power, does your group counsel people at all to, "Hey, don't do things like this? You're going to give everybody else a bad name." Even though there's no evidence that migrants commit crime any more percentage-wise than people who are already here, but this is what makes the news.

Power Malu: Yes. We do Know Your Rights training courses with them. We have conversations with them about what to do when they're approached with police officers. Yes, I think that what is happening here is a plain example of what happens when you have a language barrier, and you don't have language access and you're not able to properly communicate. If you want to just isolate this incident and just talk about this incident, the police officers didn't speak Spanish and they were yelling out commands and they were ordering them to move, which they exactly did that. They started moving.

We noticed this in a lot of the shelters where they have security outside that don't speak the language of the immigrants that are coming in. There's a lot of yelling and a lot of aggression because maybe frustration that they don't understand what I'm telling them. I have to speak louder and have to yell, and that basically tenses the situation. Instead of lowering the vibration and really having a proper way to communicate, things can get out of hand really quickly because of the lack of communication and the language barrier.

Brian Lehrer: Jesus, I know you were trying to get in on this. None of this means you start beating on somebody who's wearing the police officer's uniform, right?

Jesus Aguais: No. Look, I do condemn what happened and I have a perspective from my experience in Latin America. What I see here is a place that actually becomes a little ghetto. It's all Venezuelans or all these Latin Americans living together like they live in South America they're having a behavior that they would have in South America where there's no repercussion. I think it gives us as organizations more responsibility to reach out to the community and tell them what consequences are.

What concern me is what happened after when they leave and their behaviors, just as what they would do in South America they challenge the system. That alone is it a bad recipe because again they believe that all asylum seekers are like that. This is a complex situation. I believe they acted like what they used to, what they would have done someplace else. It happens in New York City. I think this is something that we can all learn and make sure that never [inaudible 00:24:16] education, outreach to their community to avoid these situations.

Brian Lehrer: Jesus Aguais, president of Aid for Life, Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo, the founder of the Jackson Heights Immigrant Center, and Power Malu, founder of Artists Athletes Activists, the three winners of this year's Lehrer Prize for Community Well-Being. We made our category this year, Helping the Asylum Seekers, because no matter what anybody thinks of the politics of immigration here are all these thousands of people who are human beings. It's so great that people in the private sector are stepping up to help them start their lives in New York as individuals and as families. Thank you all one more time for your work. It is our honor to honor you and thank you for coming on the show today.

Power Malu: Thank you, Brian.

Jesus Aguais: Thank you so much.

Nuala O'Doherty-Naranjo: Thank you, Brian.

Power Malu: Thank you for all New Yorkers for stepping up.

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