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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and as the snow falls around here for the end of our show today, we turn to the cold, snowy weather as a topic. Specifically working in it. Another winter storm bringing some snow to New York City and the Tri-State area for the most part of today, most of today. While there isn't expected to be a lot of accumulation, at least in the city, the National Weather Service has issued a winter storm warning for parts of New Jersey.

The temperature is really cold, too, hovering around freezing as a peak all weekend, so ahead of this cold, possibly snowy weekend, we are inviting listeners who work outside for long periods of time to have the floor for the end of the show today. How do you stay safe and warm out there if you have to work outside in weather like this? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

For the rest of us, it's so easy to take for granted those people who work outside and have to work outside no matter the weather, right? You all have the floor right now. 212-433-WNYC. Anything you want to share about the hazards of your job? Whether it's the cold, snow, or ice. Maybe the heat in the summer. Is there anything your employer does to help you? Warm drinks, gloves, space heaters, time off past a certain extreme point of weather.

Maybe you're part of a union that has put best practices into place. What are those? Maybe you think your employer could be doing more. Provide a warm break room, shorten your time outside if possible. Maybe your employer is refusing to take your concerns seriously. Tell us that story too. Text or give us a call. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Joining us now with some expertise on this is Nathalia Alejandra Varela, workplace justice supervising attorney at the activist group Make the Road New York. Nathalia, thanks so much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Nathalia Alejandra Varela: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Now I see that the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, also known as OSHA, a part of the federal government, approaches cold and icy work conditions not by a broad standard but industry by industry. Can you explain that a little bit?

Nathalia Alejandra Varela: Sure. It's a little bit of yes of both. OSHA requires that an employer provide a place of employment which is free from recognized hazards that are causing or are likely to cause death or serious physical harm to the employees. This is broad. However, that requires thought, planning, and understanding of foreseeable and anticipated hazards of the workplace and an employer has an obligation to do that.

They need to do an assessment to determine if hazards are present, are likely to be present, which necessitates the use of, often, personal protective equipment. We informally refer to this as PPE. If there are such hazards that are present or likely present, the employer needs to provide appropriate PPE. Employer also has an obligation to assess, you know, the stability of the PPE, and we are think-- They need to think about whether they need to provide an addition-- Different standards of PPE as well.

Brian Lehrer: What are some examples of PPE? I think people became familiar with that term in the general population at the beginning of the pandemic. Personal protective equipment and those initials, PPE. Then it was things like face masks and gloves. What's PPE for cold weather?

Nathalia Alejandra Varela: PPE for cold weather, well, I will say that I guess there's some specifics about that. Which is, generally, the rule is that an employer has to provide all personal protective equipment. However, there are some carve-outs, and I think that's particularly relevant for the cold weather. Wich is ordinary clothes, skin creams, other items used for-- Solely for protection from weather such as winter coats, jacket, gloves, parkas, rubber boots, hats, raincoats. Things along those lines, they are not obligated to provide. That's not an obligation that they have to provide.

It goes back to that general standard, which is they have to be assessing, though, when new things are arising and if it's going to provide a severe hazard to the employee. Then how are they anticipating this? I think, you know, you referred to some things in your introduction. What the exact remedy is is going to be specific to each work industry and how the employer assesses for it, but part of that is also about employees also notifying employers too. It's not necessarily the legal standard, but you should-- Workers should feel compelled to speak up because dangerous conditions as-- Can lead to a serious injury and sometimes death.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, postal workers. Thank you, construction workers. Thank you, sanitation workers. Thank you, delivery workers. Thank you, first responders of all kinds. Timothy in Vermont, you're on WNYC. Hi, Timothy.

Timothy: Hello. Hi. I teach skiing, and I work outside a lot. I tap maple trees, and well, it's about 11 degrees up here right now. Regard [unintelligible 00:05:59]-

Brian Lehrer: Do you have tips?

Timothy: -prudence, if you will-- What's that?

Brian Lehrer: Do you have tips? Are you calling with tips?

Timothy: Yes. Well, okay, yes I am. You have to wear layers, and you have to wear technical fabrics as opposed to like cotton or what have you. You could wear cotton as a base layer if you will, but you got to wear technical fabrics.

Brian Lehrer: Timothy, thank you very much for starting us off on the phones. Reid in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Reid.

Reid: Hi, Brian. I called in over the summer also talking about my job when the trees are really thirsty, and now the trees are really cold just like me. I work outside all day. Also tapping on trees, but I tap on them to make sure they're not going to fall over, and we're outside all day. We've been working through this weather this week, and my biggest tips are to bring a couple thermoses of hot liquids. Coffee, tea.

I always have a thermos of soup as well. When you pack it all in the morning, you want to preheat those with boiling water a couple times, and that'll really make sure everything stays piping hot. I also want to echo Timothy. Layers, technical fabrics, and I keep a electric hand warmer that I can also use as a power bank, and that really saves my fingers.

Brian Lehrer: Reid, thank you very much. One of the outdoor job categories that I didn't mention yet is going to be represented by Maria in Park Slope. Maria, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Maria: Hey, how are you doing? I love your show. I just thought this was an interesting segment because a lot of people don't realize that dog walkers are out all day. My husband and I, we have a small business in Park Slope and rain, shine, sleet, yada, yada, yada, we do it all. There's treacherous, right-- The salts for the dogs, obviously, the ice for us. One tip that I really- Sorry. -learned through the years, boots. Do not get boots that have plastic because I think that the plastic really gets cold fast and freezes, and I've learned this, so boots that don't have plastic on the bottom. Totally layers. Also movement. The more you move, the more your blood goes, and just you can get a real nice temperature. For all those dog walkers out there, you see them all day, we do a job. I know some people don't get it, but we do. Like the other two callers, we don't have-- Nobody gives us any special regulations. We just have to go out there and do it, so--

Brian Lehrer: Yes, the dog's got to go out unless you want them pooping on the floor, right? Maria, [chuckles]

Maria: The dog's got to go. [unintelligible 00:09:06]

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Another different job, Stewart in Sea Cliff, you're on WNYC. Hi, Stewart.

Stewart: Hey, Brian, good morning. I'm a stagehand at the Garden and Sunday we load [unintelligible 00:09:22] It's 34 trucks. As you know, the arena's on the fifth floor, so we have a fleet of forklifts, so everything's got to get unloaded on 33rd street and 31st street and forked up the ramp into the arena. Always ready for it. We wear extra coveralls, full cover masks, thick gloves. It is challenging because the way the building is designed, there's an old taxiway that goes right through the building. It creates a wind tunnel effect, so the wind is whipping, it's cold, but it's part of the gig.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much, Stewart. Good luck out there at the Garden.

Brian Lehrer: Natalia, we've heard some interesting stories there. People in different professions with some individual tips. The first caller was from Vermont. Another person from Vermont writes, "If I hear there's no such thing as bad weather only bad clothes one more time..." That's the whole message. I wonder if part of your job for the activist group, Make the Road, which represents all kinds of workers, it's to go beyond these individual tips and advocate for standards.

Nathalia Alejandra Varela: Absolutely. I think there's a need -- there's always a need for advocating for standards, but I think some of the ways that we start advocating and part of the education is about people thinking about their collective space. Workers working with one an -- we need a recognizing one another's harms in the workplace. If you're in a workplace and people-- You're noticing that there's a condition or there's a harm, OSHA protects your right to address this with your employer.

If you do this with another individual or on behalf of a group of workers, you can go forward and address this to the employer, and you're protected by OSHA from retaliation. It's very likely to be considered protected activity under the National Labor Relations Act.

Brian Lehrer: Do you happen to know if, for construction workers, there's, or anybody else, there's a temperature below which, or any kind of metric, below which you're not supposed to have to work if it's at all optional?

Nathalia Alejandra Varela: There's no industry requirement. It can be any temperature where you work. However, I would argue that there is a point where an employer has to be contemplating, is them just being outside a safety risk and is that, in and of itself, a hazard? Sometimes you have to call it. The alternative, again, by that, by the "it", I mean the day. Maybe this is the day that there's an alternative source of work. Pushing through, there is a level-- Different levels of liability and employers still has a liability under workers compensation law.

Another thing to consider is whether someone needs a reasonable accommodation for this specific sort of weather. There are different conditions that flare up. I think that there's different levels of advocacy that can happen. I think that the broader OSHA advocacy is a conversation that the pandemic really raised up again, but I think when we're thinking about the practicality of everyday workers, what are the options, what tools do they have to advocate for themselves?

One another is the number one, I think. Never putting themselves in the condition. I know how hard it is in that some workers are trying to make ends meet, assuredly. However, even if a worker tells you, if you know, you need to also say no.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, that pressure to keep going, right, by people who are just making ends meet. I am happy to take a call from Happy in Manhattan. Hi, Happy, are you happy?

Happy: I am, Brian. I spent a lot of time outside working when I was younger. I was a cycling coach at Columbia, and we'd go to bike races and race in this weather. It's not only layers, but it's moisture management. I would bring three to four raincoats to an event as a layer, and as I sweated into them, I would hand them off to my wife who was in the van keeping people warm. You can't just stay inside if you're the coach, you've got to be outside cheering your kids on.

Some days, I found low 30s worse than sub 0 for keeping warm when it was raining because snow is dry, but if you're in the low 30s, it's raining, and it leaks into everywhere through any seams you have, and the water draws off heat. Sometimes 35 can be worse than minus 35.

Brian Lehrer: That's a really great point, and really important, and the moisture control. Let's sneak one more in here. James in [unintelligible 00:14:25]. James, we have about 30 seconds for you. Hi there.

James: Yes. Hopefully, no one's drinking on the job, but one of the myths is that carrying a flask of alcohol is good. That actually, alcohol consumption, as I understand it, can increase the risk of hypothermia, so not a good idea.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, James. You on that one, Nathalia? The myth of alcohol keeping you warm?

Nathalia Alejandra Varela: I couldn't thank James enough. Absolutely. Do not drink on the job for a number of reasons. However, that is a total myth. It does not keep you warm. As to the previous caller, I can't thank them enough for also raising bigger concerns and something an employer has an obligation to do is train folks about what they should be looking out for cold stress. That includes is-- Are they subjected to being wet? There is increased risk for hypothermia, increased risk for frostbite, and also increased risk for trench foot.

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Brian Lehrer: I think the worst weather day of my life was when I had to be outside for a number of hours in 40 degrees and rain. Nathalia Alejandra Varela, workplace justice supervising attorney at Make the Road New York. Thank you so much for coming on talking about and celebrating all our callers who have to work outside in weather like this. Thanks so much.

Nathalia Alejandra Varela: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Have a great weekend, everyone. Stay tuned for Alison.

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