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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. There's exactly one week to go before the deadline for a new New York State budget. We're continuing to check in on what's at stake as the final negotiations take place between Governor Hochul, the assembly, and the state Senate. Each of which has their own version before the April 1st. Yes, the New York State budget comes on April Fools' Day every year.

I saw a tweet from a political reporter asking for help finding a way to describe the state finances this year other than "flush with cash," which you may have been hearing. Maybe a better term would be "not-as-awful tax revenues" because federal COVID relief means there's room for a little investment, but the question is, where? Yesterday, we talked about some of the climate initiatives in the budget with State Senator Todd Kaminsky from Long Island.

Today, we're joined by State Senator Zellnor Myrie, who chairs the Senate committee on elections and has been active in the area of criminal justice as well. His Brooklyn district includes parts or all of Brownsville, Crown Heights, East Flatbush, Gowanus, Park Slope, Prospect Heights, Prospect Lefferts Gardens, South Slope, and Sunset Park. Senator Myrie, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Senator Zellnor Myrie: It's a pleasure to be with you, Brian.

Brian: A week ago, we had the Senate finance chair, Liz Krueger, on the show. She was emphasizing that the Senate and the assembly and the governor are, ideologically, not that far apart, but there are tensions. Certainly, they're not all budgetary. We're going to get into bail reform, which is still a political football right now. What would you say are, let's say, the two or three biggest items in the budget that our listeners should be aware of still in play?

Senator Myrie: Well, I'd first say that every year, the largest pieces of the state budget have to deal with health and have to deal with education. Those areas are always the sources of much discussion. In the last few years, this democratic majority has made great strides in both of those areas. For my district, getting foundation aid for schools was game-changing.

In the healthcare space, I think this year, we're having a robust discussion around universal childcare, something that is long overdue and something that I think has reached a pretty decent consensus among the three parties that you mentioned. I think that we're looking to further our investments in school, in after-school programming, in universal pre-K for folks outside of the city of New York.

Brian: That's exciting if it comes, a universal childcare system.

Senator Myrie: It would be. I think that this is, again, an issue that is of national import. We have seen during this pandemic, how incredibly important it is for parents and families to be able to work in unconventional ways, to be able to return to the workforce, and to be able to shift how they work. All of that has great implications for how they get childcare for our childcare providers. I think this is really going to be a monumental step forward for us. My hope is that we'll reach a consensus that most New Yorkers can be proud of.

Brian: Whatever you do this year that launches a new program like that, will the money be there to sustain it? I'm going to say something that's a little budget-wonky maybe for a lot of people, but I think it's huge and super interesting. Tell me if this is right. Typically, we say New York, being a relatively wealthy state, contributes more to the federal tax coffers than it gets back, right? Poorer states get more federal aid than they give in federal taxes. Because we were hit so hard by COVID and we're getting so much COVID relief money from the federal government, this year, we're actually getting more money back from the federal government than we put in in federal taxes. Is that your understanding?

Senator Myrie: I think that's right, Brian. I think it's also important to note that the investments that are made pursuant to COVID relief from the federal government aren't meant to be one-shot deals. They're meant to stabilize the economy, stabilize different areas of industry such that the growth will remain and persist beyond this fiscal year. When I think about the investments in keeping homeowners in their homes or to help make landlords whole who were not able to receive rent from a very struggling renter community, these are things that would've been worthwhile investments prior to the pandemic. I think the stability that they will provide, the encouragement for folks to get back into the workforce, I think, will pay dividends outside of this particular fiscal year.

Brian: Listeners, we could take a few phone calls for State Senator Zellnor Myrie of Brooklyn, 212-433, WNYC. Spending priority calls are okay. Bail reform calls are okay or whatever else is relevant. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692, or tweet your question @BrianLehrer. Senator, bail reform, here we are again. Governor Hochul has now proposed a set of changes that is similar to what Mayor Adams is calling for.

You represent Mayor Adams' old state senate district in Brooklyn from when he was in the Senate. What's your understanding about what the governor wants and are you ready to go along with what she's calling a limited change to allow judges to take dangerousness into account, only on very specific crimes involving repeat offenders or involving guns?

Senator Myrie: Well, every time we have this conversation, and you're right to point out that we are here yet again, every time we have this conversation, I'd like to start it off with a palate cleanser, and that is the purpose of the bill is to guarantee an individual's return to court. It is not the government's opportunity to exact revenge or punishment. We have a presumption of innocence in this country.

As that determination is being made, whether this person actually committed the crime, we have a statutory regime meant to determine what should happen with that person. There is very real fear and anxiety in the city and in the state right now. I think we have to recognize that. I think we have to start our conversations with that. Individuals who are using that genuine fear and anxiety to further a political agenda and I think in many respects, what has been proposed by opponents of bail reform is just that political, we have to be wary of that.

We have made this mistake in the past. We have been reactionary. We have not pursued real public safety solutions and I'm not okay with that. I think our policy should be data-driven. The facts are 98% of individuals who are released before their day in court do not re-offend, do not commit a serious offense. For the things that people worry about, what happens in the interim between a person being accused and a person being convicted?

The re-arrest rates before bail reform are nearly identical in the city of New York to what they are post-bail reform. This is a political conversation, one that is at a fever pitch, one that has grave consequences for the communities that I represent. There has been no stronger advocate than me on solutions to gun violence, investing in our communities, really having a conversation about the co-creation of public safety. My hope is that we will have a data-based, evidence-based, reality-based conversation around our justice reforms.

Brian: I'm so glad you brought up data because this is part of what anybody who's watching, this issue in the press is hearing, "Oh, the data says this," "The data says that," or "There is no data. There's no data that tells us one way or the other." Let me read you a data quote from the Brennan Center for Justice, which, as you know, is on your side on this. They want to keep the bail reforms pretty much as is.

The Brennan Center, in one of its recent postings, says this. One recent analysis by the Times Union of Albany suggested that relatively few people released under the new law went on to be re-arrested for serious offenses. The Times Union reviewed state data on pre-trial releases between July 2020 and June 2021, identifying nearly 100,000 cases where someone was released pre-trial in a decision related to the state's changed bail laws.

Now, here's the data. It says just 2% of those 100,000 cases led to a re-arrest for a violent felony. Of these, 429 cases led to a re-arrest for a violent felony involving a firearm, but then it adds roughly one-fifth of all cases resulted in a re-arrest for any offense regardless of severity such as a misdemeanor or nonviolent felony.

To break that down after reading that quote, if 2% of 100,000 people go on to commit a violent felony, that's 2,000 violent felonies. If you take all additional crimes from people released under the new bail laws, they said one-fifth of all cases. That's 20%. That would be 20,000 crimes in a year. This is according to the Brennan Center, so what should people think of those numbers?

Senator Myrie: If you are a victim of a crime or know someone that has been a victim of a crime that is close to you, responding with data charts, graphs is very cold comfort. I recognize that. I appreciate that. In my community, I don't get chauffeured around the city in a black car. I walk around. I talk to my constituents. I ride the subways. I get the fear. I get the anxiety. I get, again, that it is cold comfort to hear about statistics.

I think what's important to point out about what you just read, Brian, is that we do not have definitive clarity on what these numbers were pre-bail reform. When you were looking at re-arrest rates, whether they are for violent offenses or generally just for offenses, period, I think for statewide numbers, we don't have the pre and post-bail reform numbers. We do, however--

Brian: That's true, by the way, according to that Times Union study that I just cited from. There's no denominator in that. They don't have a pre-bail reform rate to compare it to.

Senator Myrie: That's exactly right. It's an important point for this reason. If we take an individual who has been accused of a crime, is released because of bail reform, and continues to stay in their community, they are continuing at their job, they're providing for their family, the incentives for that individual to run to a media publication and say, "Here is my success story about bail reform," is very low. The incentive is very high when bail reform allegedly is not successful.

When there is the commission of a crime that is attributed to bail reform, the incentive to sensationalize and cover that is very high. We don't hear about the vast majority of folks who do not re-offend, who are benefiting from the changes in this law, and who, by way of the numbers, at least in New York City, are not contributing to a higher re-arrest rate. I know that this is a difficult conversation to have in the political climate that we're in, but I think it's incumbent on leaders to tell people what they need to hear and not just what they want to hear. I'm going to continue to do that in my community.

Brian: Let me ask you about the other piece of this, or what I consider another huge piece of this. Because when I said, "Here we go again," at the beginning of our exchange about bail reform, part of my frustration is that so much of the media focus, and we try to do it somewhat differently here, is only on bail reform. There are these other huge pieces that everybody, including Mayor Adams, agrees need to be done for longer-term crime prevention but that are hardly getting addressed at all.

With respect to the state budget, which is what you're involved in negotiating right now, let me read you a couple of lines from Errol Louis's recent article in New York magazine. He referred to "a coalition of more than 100 providers," that is homelessness and mental illness providers. I guess people providing mental illness services and supportive housing for people with high needs.

He said, "A coalition of more than 100 providers asked the state legislature for $500 million to address the staffing and capacity-building needed to take on the problems of homelessness and mental illness." The request, says the spokesperson, was denied, and then Errol gives his opinion, "That's a mistake. Legislators may think they have better things to do than prevent a repeat of tragic incidents like the murder of Michelle Go, but they don't." For you, Senator Myrie, I'm sure you agree with that sentiment, but what can you tell us that the legislature is doing, what it's funding to deal with these underlying conditions?

Senator Myrie: This is a really important point because it speaks to the underlying forces that drive certain sectors of disorder or crime in our city. We have a duty to tackle homelessness and our mental health challenges with full vigor. I think that the legislature is moving in that direction in the Senate's one-house proposal. Our proposed budget in this process, we have fought for $250 million for housing access vouchers.

This would be a new program that many of the advocates in the homelessness space agrees would be an important step to provide housing for those who are homeless or on the verge of homelessness. As it relates to mental health, I think that is a conversation that it's continuing to be had. We must invest in it. We have to do it not just at the back end when someone is having a particular challenge that manifests in potential harm to another individual, but we have to do it on the front end as well.

We are going through a two-year pandemic where all of us are grappling with issues of mental health and where access to therapy is incredibly difficult. I myself, during the pandemic, sought to get some therapy. That process was incredibly onerous and difficult. I have pretty good health insurance and I'm relatively smart. I think that we have to address that issue as well if we're going to have this mental health conversation.

Brian: Are you? Because, again, this article sites a request to the legislature for $500 million to address the staffing and capacity-building needed to take on the problems of homelessness and mental institutions at the represented mental-- I'm sorry, homelessness and mental illness at the institutions that were represented in that ask, but the Errol Louis article said it was denied. Do you know anything about that?

Senator Myrie: I think the conversations are going to be continuing, Brian, over the next seven days now. We have until April Fools' Day or New York budget day, so those of us in the mix here. This is something that I'm certainly going to be advocating for. I think there is general consensus in the Senate assembly and in the executive that we have to do something about this issue. What that number ultimately looks like is not clear yet, but it is something that we certainly will be elevating in our deliberations.

Brian: One more criminal justice thing. You advocate a bill known as Clean Slate to seal criminal records of people after they've served their time. Could you explain how far that would go? To people who might be concerned like I'm an employer and I would like to know if somebody was just in prison for embezzlement before I hire them to my company or whatever the thing is, make your case.

Senator Myrie: Yes, so what the Clean Slate Act would do is provide the nearly 2.3 million New Yorkers with a conviction record a second chance. Many people that you interact with, even though they may not have revealed this to you, do have a conviction record. They are prevented from applying to jobs. They're prevented from housing opportunities. They're prevented from getting financial aid for school.

This is an economics bill. This is a housing bill. It's an education bill. It provides for an individual to have their conviction record automatically sealed only if the following conditions are met: If they have served the time that they were sentenced to post-conviction, if they remain conviction-free, crime-free for three years if it was a misdemeanor, and seven years if it was a felony.

In certain instances, automatic sealing will not apply. One of them being if an individual is registered on the sex registry. As it relates to businesses, this bill is presenting a coalition unlike many of the other bills that we get to fight for. JPMorgan, one of the largest employers in the country, is in full support of the Clean Slate Act. Verizon, another large corporation, one of the largest employers in the state of New York--

Brian: There goes my embezzlement example, by the way, if JPMorgan is for it.

Senator Myrie: [chuckles] JPMorgan, exactly, a large financial institution, is in full support of this because they know that giving an individual an opportunity is really the best way to keep us safe, but it hasn't just been that. It has been many labor unions, many faith leaders. There's a broad recognition that shutting people out of opportunity, shutting them out of the economy is not the way to keep that individual on the straight and narrow.

If we really are about redemption, if we're about rehabilitation, then we have to pass this in order to show people that, "Look, you make mistakes. You suffer those consequences. You pay your dues. When the time comes, we want you back on the field with everyone else and we want you to be able to provide for your family and for your community."

Brian: This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcong, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are New York and New Jersey public radio and streaming live at wnyc.org. A few minutes left with State Senator Zellnor Myrie from Brooklyn toward the New York State budget deadline a week from today.

Then we're going to have the former prime minister of Australia, Kevin Rudd, on the world situation, the war in Ukraine for sure, the US, Russia, China head of state alert. It's not every day that a former head of state comes on and takes your calls, but Kevin Rudd is going to be here and do that next. Let me take a phone call for you, Senator. Marjorie in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hello, Marjorie.

Marjorie: Hello, can you hear me?

Brian: We can hear you just fine.

Marjorie: Okay, thank you for taking my call. I wanted to ask about the fair pay for Home Care Act, which has currently support in both the New York State Senate and the New York State House. Unfortunately, Governor Hochul has not approved this bill in her budget. I'm sure you realize, this is going to increase the number of jobs available. Home care workers in New York State are vastly, grossly underpaid. There is the largest shortage in New York State and the entire nation. I would like to know what the legislature is planning to do to ensure that this bill will make it into Governor Hochul's budget and the final New York State budget, considering the importance of this legislation.

Brian: Marjorie, thank you. Senator, what's the state of the bill to increase pay for home healthcare workers?

Senator Myrie: Thanks so much for that question, Marjorie. My mom, prior to her knee surgery, was a home care worker. This issue was very personal for me, not just because it's close family-wise, but I represent a large population of home care workers. In fact, my district is probably the largest percentage of home care workers who are predominantly Black women. I am a huge supporter of this bill.

For our listeners who are unfamiliar with the issue, home care workers get paid an embarrassingly low amount, not just here in the city but throughout the state. What fair pay for home care would do is increase that wage for some of the purposes that Marjorie outlined to help recruit more people into the industry, but also to be humane. These are individuals that, at the height of our COVID-19 pandemic, took care of people in their homes at great risk to their own personal health. We stood up and applauded these workers every night at the height of the pandemic. It's now time for us to show them the money.

Brian: What's the wage in the bill? Is it or should it be different from the New York State $15 minimum wage that applies to other workers?

Senator Myrie: It would, one, be regional. As some of you might recall, the fight to increase the minimum wage here in New York was staggered. The pay increases were pegged to certain years and to certain regions, so there's a similar dynamic here. It would raise the wage higher than what we have for the minimum wage, but it depends on where you are. I think that we, again, have a really good opportunity to show these workers that we care for them. I am cautiously optimistic about its chances. The Senate and the assembly both have supported this very strongly. We're going to be doing our best over the next seven days to ensure it makes it in the budget.

Brian: You said it would vary by region. What would the wage be in Brooklyn?

Senator Myrie: My understanding is that we would raise it to at least $20 an hour. I don't want to misspeak on the legislation, but that is what my understanding of it is.

Brian: One more call. Joseph in Cobble Hill, you're on WNYC with State Senator from Brooklyn, Zellnor Myrie. Hi, Joseph.

Joseph: Yes, thanks very much. I wanted to ask about election issues of ranked-choice voting and open primaries. With respect to ranked-choice voting, we don't have it on the state level as I understand. This is a year where, hypothetically, if an Andrew Cuomo-type candidate ran, they could win with 31% of the vote if the other three candidates split the vote.

I would like the senator's view on ranked-choice voting and also open nonpartisan primaries in New York State. We have three-and-a-half million registered voters in New York State like one in four that are not registered Democrats or Republicans. The reality is that they can't participate in the primaries. Of course, the Democratic primary is where, most likely, the candidates are going to be selected.

Brian: Joseph, I'm going to leave it there because we're almost out of time in the segment, but two good questions. They're right in your wheelhouse, Senator. Listeners, if you don't know, Senator Myrie chairs the Senate elections committee. For people who just went through the ranked-choice voting process for mayor in New York City last year, they may be surprised to learn that this upcoming Democratic primary and Republican primary if there is one for governor will not include ranked-choice voting. Do you support that and do you support nonpartisan primaries, if you can give me about a 30-second answer on this?

Senator Myrie: Yes, so I was supportive of ranked-choice voting in the city. I think before us looking to see how that might apply statewide, I think it's important that we analyze how ranked-choice voting went in this past election. As you know, it is relatively new and was done by way of the people voting for it. It wasn't just a bill that was passed by the legislature. I suspected it'd be a similar process statewide, but I do support ranked-choice voting as a concept and would be very interested to have that conversation going forward.

As it relates to open primaries, that too is something that I am willing to discuss. I think there are reasonable arguments on both sides of this for proponents of the open primaries as the caller just mentioned. I think there might be some concerns about what we call in the business party rating and influencing primaries in an adverse way, but I'm very open to having this conversation.

Brian: All right. Last thing before you go. I understand you're on your way to a rally after we finish. In support of funding for Central Brooklyn SUNY downstate hospital, it was converted to a COVID-only hospital at the height of the pandemic and seems to have suffered financially. What's its role now and what do you want the public to know about the rally about to come?

Senator Myrie: Well, SUNY Downstate is going to be in dire straits, Brian, unless there is an injection in this budget to the tune of $150 million. As you might recall, last year, I had COVID and I had COVID very bad. When it came time for me to seek medical attention, I could have gone anywhere in the city. I went to SUNY Downstate. That is my neighborhood hospital and the hospital that I represent. I got world-class care. That is something that our community has come to be accustomed to, getting serviced by people from here and by people who care about this community.

We cannot afford to let SUNY Downstate fall into disrepair and that is what this rally is about. It's about standing up for the people of Central Brooklyn who have lost too many hospital beds over the past couple of decades. We are going to hopefully be able to push this $150 million investment in the budget, but it must be demanded. My hope is that we will send a clear message today.

Brian: State Senator Zellnor Myrie of Brooklyn, we always appreciate it. Good conversation. Thank you very much.

Senator Myrie: Thanks so much, Brian.

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