Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we turn to our Climate Story of the Week, which we're doing on Tuesdays again in 2024. Last week, we talked about the State of the State addresses from Governor Hochul in New York and Governor Murphy in New Jersey. While both governors acknowledged that climate was one of the defining issues of our time, they didn't spend a lot of time elaborating on what they see as solutions.

We thought we would devote our Climate Story of the Week this week to drilling down a little more and including clips from the speeches on what Hochul and Murphy did say about climate and how they seem to be setting up climate policy proposals in 2024. Joining me now to break down all of this are Marie French and Ry Rivard, who cover energy and the environment for Politico in New York and New Jersey respectively. Marie and Ry, welcome back to WNYC.

Ry Rivard: Good morning.

Marie French: Good morning. Great to be here.

Brian Lehrer: Marie, we're going to dive right in with a clip from Governor Hochul since you're on the New York side. Here's a clip of the issues that she ticked through during her State of the State address.

Governor Hochul: We'll protect the environment by planting 25 million trees, fund resiliency efforts and expand solar access, and make sure our state meets our bold emission targets.

Brian Lehrer: Marie, can you get a bit more granular out of that list? Which efforts are most likely to happen this year or Hochul most likely to push during the legislative session?

Marie French: Yes, it's really interesting. The governor did not devote really any substantial part of her speech to the climate crisis this year. She did mention the tree planting initiative and she's proposed about 47 million for that. 25 million trees by 2033 actually falls far short of what's recommended in the state's climate plan. It calls for 680 million trees by 2040-

Brian Lehrer: In New York State alone.

Marie French: -to be planted in the state. Yes, I know it's [chuckles] intense to think about that. She has actually proposed--

Brian Lehrer: Where are they all going to go, by the way? Did they get specific about that? Are they going to just walk around the Adirondacks and plant trees in between the trees that are already there? Do you know how that's supposed to go?

Marie French: It's definitely going to be a lot of reforestation and trying to plant trees in places that they used to be, but they aren't anymore. Urban forests maybe are part of the solution there, but yes, it's a big goal and it requires a lot of acreage to actually achieve.

Brian Lehrer: It's an aside. I wonder if the state will get involved in what the city already has a program for, but it may not be robust enough. That is getting a lot of trees planted on treeless blocks and some of the especially lower-income neighborhoods in the city where trees are not abundant but should be just for quality of life. That's been a city initiative. It's been met, I think, so far, even across three administrations, Bloomberg, de Blasio, and now Adams. I don't know if Hochul sees a role in that. There's a climate aspect. There's a general daily quality-of-life aspect in that. That would be interesting if there could be money from the state to plant more trees around the neighborhoods of New York City, but we digress, right?

Marie French: [chuckles] Yes. I think that's part of it in terms of the grants that will be available in Bond Act funding as well. She did lay out some major proposals as part of her policy book that she didn't really mention in her speech surprisingly.

Brian Lehrer: All right. We'll come back to Governor Hochul. Moving over to New Jersey. Ry, Governor Murphy brought up his goal of 100% clean energy by 2035. Let's take a listen to a clip, 30 seconds, from Murphy's State of the State address.

Governor Murphy: One of the hallmarks of our administration has been planting a flag in the industries of tomorrow. Just look at where New Jersey stands when it comes to one of the most promising and important sectors of all. Renewable energy. We have set one of the most ambitious clean energy goals in the entire country and it is a goal we remain firmly committed to, 100% clean energy by the year 2035.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Ry, what's in the bill?

Ry Rivard: He set this goal. When he came to office about six years ago, he had, at the time, fairly ambitious clean energy by 2045-2050 goal. Couple of decades out. Then under pressure from environmental groups that he wasn't doing enough in his second term, he extended that last year or moved it up to 2035, 100% by 2035, but that's an executive order. Anybody who follows New Jersey politics knows, we tend to go back and forth between Republican governors and Democratic governors. Of course, Chris Christie came before Murphy. Of course, I'm for Christie.

There is this feeling among a lot of people in New Jersey who want this goal to be real, that it needs to be a law. So far, there is not a law. There is just an executive order. The bill to hit the 100% by 2035 goal and make it a state law failed last year. There are some promises to bring it up early in the legislative session that just began with the governor's speech last week, but he didn't specifically say, as he did with some other pieces of legislation, "Hey, legislator, I'm going to sign your bill if you send it to me." He didn't say that about that bill, so he's sticking by his goal, but whether it's going to be a law that endures is determined in New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: Ry, what does 100% clean energy by 2035 mean? Does that mean that in a mere 11 years, there would be no more homes or apartment buildings using gas stoves? Does it mean there would be no more gasoline-powered cars on the road? What does 100% clean energy by 2035 mean?

Ry Rivard: This goal, we're just talking about power. We're not talking about converting gas stoves to electric stoves. He's talking about that, but that's not part of the 100% goal. We're just talking about electricity. That means keeping the nuclear plants in the state that provide 40% of the clean energy or renewable energy that New Jersey gets, keeping those open, expanding offshore wind, maybe bringing in some wind power from further west, continuing to invest in solar energy in New Jersey. Those are the kinds of things we're talking about. We're not talking about converting every car and every gas stove. That's a longer out-there goal.

Brian Lehrer: You're talking about the utilities. Marie, I know you were interested in, on the New York side, the NY HEAT Act, which aligns utility regulation with state climate justice and emission reduction targets. It's in Hochul's policy book, though it wasn't in the speech. You want to talk about that a little bit?

Marie French: Yes, I think it sets up a really interesting battle here for the upcoming session. Last year, environmental advocates successfully pushed for limits on gas and fossil fuels and new buildings. Now, this starts to tackle the existing gas system and the continued expansion of it beyond just new construction. Hochul has endorsed ending subsidies for new hookups for gas service. It's dubbed to, very cleverly, the 100-foot rule because it requires all other utility ratepayers to subsidize new hookups for 100 feet of service line.

She's also endorsed ending the obligation to serve, which mandates that if you ask a gas utility to hook up your building, they're required currently to do that if they can safely and reliably do so. She's pushing to align it more with the state's climate law to start to manage a potential downsizing of the gas system. We still haven't seen details. She's not supporting a key component of NY HEAT that advocates are really keen on, which is an affordability component.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we're in our Climate Story of the Week, which we do Tuesdays on The Brian Lehrer Show. We're talking about climate components of the State of the State addresses and the policy priorities for 2024 from Governor Hochul in New York and Governor Murphy in New Jersey with our guests from Politico who are a New York energy and environment correspondent for Politico, Marie French, and same for New Jersey for Politico, Ry Rivard.

Any questions or comments about 2024 and Governor Murphy or Governor Hochul, climate policy at the state level? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Call or text. We'll continue to hear some more clips from their State of the State addresses. Ry, here's a Murphy question from a listener texting in. "If Murphy is serious about the 2035 goal, what's his plan for offshore wind in light of recent cancelations?

Ry Rivard: That's a great question and we still don't know the answer. I think he has accelerated the bidding process for new offshore wind farms. Just for your listeners who may have forgotten, New Jersey had planned for and approved three offshore wind farms the fall of last year. Two of those projects were canceled by a Danish developer, Ørsted. We're waiting to see what's next. I think Murphy is trying to aggressively secure new contracts, but none of these projects at this point are likely to be built while he's in office. You might see some ribbon cuttings and that kind of thing. It's really about the long runway now for offshore wind in New Jersey.

Brian Lehrer: How about wind on the New York side, Marie? We know there's been a push and pull on Long Island just as there's been on the Jersey Shore.

Marie French: Yes. The developer of the project that got that major pushback with the Long Beach community for the transmission line actually canceled their contract with New York, which is an interesting step because there was a path for them to rebid the project without canceling it into this ongoing New York solicitation. We'll definitely know more about what's going to happen with some of these earlier New York projects that have faced major cost increases due to inflation. In just nine days actually is the deadline for companies to submit new bids for those projects and any new projects that they think are competitive.

Brian Lehrer: Now, both governors Murphy and Hochul are pinning clean energy initiatives to economic opportunities. Here's 28 seconds of Governor Murphy.

Governor Murphy: This is not just about doing what is right for our planet, although it is. This is also about creating a generation of good-paying jobs in the industries that will literally power our future like offshore wind and solar. Clean energy is just one example of how we are reclaiming our state's legendary legacy in innovation to create economic opportunities for all.

Brian Lehrer: That's Murphy on that and here's Governor Hochul.

Governor Hochul: We're enacting a vision of New York where veterans can embark on incredible careers, fighting climate crisis and green energy, offshore wind, where unions are strong and our infrastructure is resilient to withstand those 100-year storms.

Brian Lehrer: Marie, in that clip, that second clip, and, Ry, we'll get to you on Murphy on this in a minute, Hochul mentioned veterans in particular. Are some of these green jobs somehow specifically tied to job opportunities for vets?

Marie French: I think there are a few programs like that. I think that's a visionary statement. I feel like folks were definitely disappointed that she didn't spend more time talking about climate. She did mention there the resilient infrastructure piece of things, which she has proposed quite a few new programs. It's leveraging the Environmental Bond Act that voters have approved to invest more in flood resiliency for not just local governments to invest in their infrastructure, but also homeowners to prepare and then assist with repairs after major flooding or other catastrophic natural disasters that we're maybe going to see more of the climate change.

Brian Lehrer: How about on the New Jersey side, job creation with respect to green energy, Ry?

Ry Rivard: Yes, I should say one of the projects that's left in New Jersey Atlantic Shores is that under their ambitious timeline, they could start construction this year. It's the new projects that are further out. Those would be a lot of union jobs is the hope. I think that if you look at the politics in New Jersey, offshore wind was something that Republicans thought they could use against Murphy last year in the legislative elections, where there were 120 seats, all 120 seats in the legislature on the ballot.

It did not work as an issue arguably. There are more Democrats now in the legislature than there were before the last election. If Murphy's clean energy agenda was tested last year, it will pass that test. With two years left in his term, I think he's really trying to get things done and trying to create this virtuous circle that he thought he could create between industry's need for predictable power.

Offshore wind might be more expensive, but it's never going to boom and bust like oil does where you see spikes in oil barrel prices and that kind of thing. Then union jobs, so you have energy creation, clean energy, environmentalists, labor, all this stuff is the project that he was really working on to create a political coalition. If that's going to happen, it needs to happen soon.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes, "Please ask the guests about California's pullback on solar subsidies and whether we face a similar risk in New York and New Jersey." Ry, let me stay with you on this first. I think this has been a back-and-forth between the Christie administration and even the Corzine administration, which came before it, and maybe the Murphy administration, which came after it, whether there are subsidies for individuals who put up solar heating panels on their roofs?

Ry Rivard: Yes, I think that there has been a recent effort to rein in some of that spending. You're seeing some focus in New Jersey on community solar projects, which are projects where a developer puts up a solar project and then people in that utility service area say, "Hey, I want a piece of that power," and are paying for that clean energy, which is partly subsidized by the state or encouraged by the state. I think we're seeing a shift in New Jersey toward that and away from the generous, and people would complain, overly generous subsidies that you saw a decade or so ago, which I think many people have begun to think were too generous and too expensive.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a similar conversation or a policy pull and push happening in New York, Marie, with solar subsidies?

Marie French: Well, in terms of the homeowner and how those are worked, we've moved a little bit away from the basic net metering model in New York already. I think we're continuing to definitely see major subsidies for solar, especially when it comes to community solar, which I think for folks in New York City and in other places where there are a lot of renters and people who maybe don't have access or the ability to pay upfront costs for solar panels on their home or own their own home. The governor is pushing a program to expand access to that for low-income customers in particular by having utilities contract out for it and automatically giving credits to low-income customers.

Brian Lehrer: One more thing on this. A listener writes, "On solar energy, we really need a robust program for landlords to install solar on their properties. All the incentives out there are targeted at homeowners." Xander in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Xander.

Xander: Hey, Brian. Thanks so much for taking my call and thanks to your guests for all of their work. I have a question about if there's going to be any subsidies or legislation or grants available to incentivize regenerative agriculture or specifically community-based composting, which has so many educational and community-building benefits, as well as all the benefits that go to diverting organic waste and making use of it. Do you know of any of those, either in New Jersey or New York, coming up, especially in the wake of the city cuts that happened locally?

Brian Lehrer: Marie, do you know for New York?

Marie French: I'm not familiar with any major new funding programs for that personally.

Brian Lehrer: Ry, composting in New Jersey?

Ry Rivard: Ditto. Not something on my radar right now.

Brian Lehrer: Sorry, Xander. Good question. We couldn't get you an answer. We'll try to get it on a future show. Izzy in the Bronx, you're on WNYC. Hi, Izzy.

Izzy: Hi. How are you? Can you hear me now?

Brian Lehrer: Yes, we hear you.

Izzy: Okay, I'm a retired meteorologist. We've always known that the greatest contributor to CO₂ contaminants in the air and other stuff is from commuting, mostly from traffic. I find that the city and state of New York and New Jersey also have not been very serious about trying to reduce commutation. They should be supporting mass transit more. The congestion pricing should help a little bit. Maybe they should give some subsidies to carpooling.

I was upset when the Port Authority ended the carpool discounts over the Hudson River because that would have helped. I've been plugging for reduced commutation since I lived in Massachusetts and had Barney Frank-- I used to write him letters in the 1980s because we already saw the problem of subsidizing with tax breaks, companies that don't require people to come to work. Okay. Mayor Adams started insisting that his employees show up at work. Okay, I know it affects businesses, it affects real estate, but it also is a very good climate-saver.

Brian Lehrer: I understand. Izzy, I'm going to leave it there because we're running out of time in the segment, but this is obviously a big point of contention between the two governors. The congestion pricing plan for driving into Manhattan Central Business District below 60th Street. Ry, you write the lack of a plan in New Jersey and a Murphy lawsuit aimed at New York is creating the unusual situation where the governor of one state is being blamed for the problems in two.

Remind us again. Climate is one of the big reasons for congestion pricing in addition to funding the MTA and reducing ground-level pollution. It's considered circular if it works. If there's more money to build better mass transit, then there'll be fewer people who even want to drive their cars, tolls aside, into the business district, but Murphy is against it. Does he have a climate rationale or a climate alternative for all the people who want to drive either just within New Jersey or into New York?

Ry Rivard: I think he would say that there are some traffic jams in certain parts of New Jersey created by congestion pricing, but no. Overall, his complaint is that his residents are going to have to pay more. He feels like that's unfair or discrimination or wasn't correctly considered by either the federal environmental review or by New York's MTA. The crux of it is driver's going to have to pay more and that's unpopular. There are some nuances there, but I think that's what's happening in many of his arguments.

That puts him at odds with a lot of the New York civic environmental and business community. Back home in New Jersey, the New Jersey Transit is facing a deficit that opens this summer and a bigger one next summer. There isn't right now a plan to fill that budget gap. It's creating a lot of headaches on the transit front for Murphy and really, I think, raising questions as we reported among environmentalists and people who care about transit, about whether the governor is serious.

Brian Lehrer: All right. As we move from State of the State season to the actual legislative seasons, just focus as we conclude this segment on one big bill to watch. If people are climate-concerned, one big bill to watch in each legislature. Marie, you have one for New York?

Marie French: Definitely, I would say what happens with the NY HEAT proposal and what Governor Hochul has proposed, obviously, all eyes on the Assembly Democrats.

Brian Lehrer: Ry, one for Trenton?

Ry Rivard: There's a 100% clean energy bill and a cheat. It's being paired with a grid modernization bill that would get the unions on board. Those two together if they move or don't move are the things to watch.

Brian Lehrer: That's our Climate Story of the Week. We thank Marie French and Ry Rivard, who cover energy and the environment for Politico in New York and New Jersey respectively. Thank you both so much.

Marie French: Thank you.

Ry Rivard: Thank you.

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