[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Now, we continue with our series, Punishment and Profit, which we're doing in conjunction with The Greene Space here at WNYC. The Greene Space is having live virtual events on Tuesday nights. We're doing these previews on Mondays of these very interesting conversations they've been having about the intersection of the criminal justice system and business.

We've got a short one today to fit into our membership drive schedule, but no less interesting, the business of prison equipment. Who in the outside world ever thinks about that kind of topic? Back with us is Bianca Tylek, founder and executive director of the group Worth Rises, which thinks about it a lot. Their mission is to expose perverse incentives that prison-related businesses set up that come out in how people are treated. Bianca has this uniquely perfect background for the work she's doing now.

I don't think we mentioned this earlier in the series, but she has worked with corrections agencies in New York City and elsewhere, so she's got that, worked for the campaign to end mass incarceration at the ACLU. She's got that, and she worked as a financial analyst at Morgan Stanley and Citigroup. Let's see with all those intersecting expertises what she can teach us about punishment and profits this week, the topic this time being prison equipment. Hi, Bianca. Welcome back to WNYC.

Bianca Tylek: Hi, Brian. It's so nice to be back with you. Thank you so much.

Brian: With us also this week is WNYC and Gothamist reporter George Joseph because he's written a piece about what happens when a particular piece of prison equipment becomes faulty and has dire consequences for inmates. Hey, George, welcome back to the show.

George Joseph: Hey, Brian. Thanks so much.

Brian: We will reveal your specific in a couple of minutes, but Bianca, I see there are yearly trade shows by the American Correctional Association, where vendors literally show off their new products and equipment for correctional administrators to buy. If you're walking about one of these trade shows, walking around one of these trade shows, what kind of products would you see in a typical year?

Bianca: Brian, I'm so glad we're starting there because it's actually a type of trade show that very few people have been to, especially when I was in the correctional industry. I actually have been to one of these trade shows. Essentially, twice a year, the American Correctional Association, which is the trade association for the corrections industry, there's also the American Jail Association, which focuses more specifically on jails.

The ACA and the AJA, every year, have-- actually, twice a year, conferences, where folks in this industry from corrections around the country come together. The biggest thing that actually happens at these conferences is accreditation of facilities and facilities actually pay to be accredited. It is one of the revenue sources, but there's also all these corporations that essentially fund these conferences.

If you take a look at their brochure, it's literally from front page to back page, a hundred pages of advertising to prisons and jails. When you get to this conference, it's in a typical convention center, hotel like everywhere else. A few days out of each conference, there will be an exhibit hall and that exhibit hall is very protected because a lot and many would walk in. Essentially, when you walk in is this table after table after table of just some of the most egregious things you would have seen.

I mean, from handcuffs to guns to food trays to mattresses, uniform. Anything you could think of that might be inside of a prison and jail, there's a table for it, right? Somebody's selling it with stress balls and all the typical things you might see in a convention center. The free giveaways and vacation packages for signing up or throwing your business card in a fishbowl. At the end, you just look around this space and you realize this entire thing is based on over two million people being imprisoned.

Brian: I see that a selling point for many of these products is that they can't be taken apart by the inmates and turned into weapons, right? Can you give me an example of that?

Bianca: Yes, there's actually a lot of the products. There's two different types of-- When we talk about this entire sector, some parts we're talking about supplies, which are supplies that are being given to incarcerated folks, and then there's equipment, which is, in large part, the items that are being used by staff, the weapons and others, security vests and things like that. When you think about the supplies that are actually given to incarcerated folks or, for example, the furnishing, so it's a range. It'll be everything from like shampoo that they describe as Maximum Security because it's a clear liquid. Ironically, the Bob Barker Company, which manufactures this type of shampoo, actually has a warning--

Brian: Wait, Bob Barker, The Price is Right guy?

Bianca: No, that's the common misconception. It is not the same person. It is the same name though. The company is called the Bob Barker Company. It's not related to Bob Barker from The Price is Right.

Brian: Okay, I wanted to clear that up. There's such a thing as Maximum Security Shampoo?

Bianca: Oh, my gosh, Brian. The lies they tell are incredible, yes, but there is and it's an all-in-one body wash, shampoo, and conditioner that is absolutely clear like water. It's so awful, the product, but there's actually a warning label on the shampoo that warns against skin contact.

Brian: [laughs] I don't understand.

Bianca: I don't understand either, but it's actually in the manual. There's things like this. Their excuse is Maximum Security. It's clear. No one can hide anything in this shampoo. You have, as you were saying, other things that they say they don't want to be destroyed for use as a weapon. Everything is made out of industrial-type plastics and metals. Everything from the beds to the way the sheets are manufactured are all very specific, but it basically just allows for these corporations to charge more for, essentially, a product of lesser quality.

Brian: George Joseph from WNYC and Gothamist, you've reported on one type of equipment used inside prisons and that's drug tests. I see that, in 2019, you reported that nearly 2,000 inmates across New York State may have been punished due to faulty drug tests made by a company called the Microgenics Corporation. You reported on something like that happening again in 2020, but with a different drug test made by a different company. Why do these drug tests keep failing and what are the consequences for inmates?

George: That's a great question, Brian. It's actually something we're still trying to tease out because DOCCS, the New York State corrections authority, with our first story about faulty urine analysis tests, blamed the company and said, "This company's product is faulty. We're investigating this. Now, we have to go back and restore privileges to all the incarcerated people who we put in solitary or did various punishments to."

There's a question of, was it just the reliability of the machines that was the problem or was it the way that DOCCS was using these sorts of tests, which are advertised as screening tests in a definitive way where instead of just using them to screen and then do further lab testing, the state authorities were just using multiple screening tests in some cases for some of these products and then making disciplinary decisions based on those questionable screening intended tests?

The companies though, like in this case, Microgenics, was sending representatives to some of these disciplinary hearings and testifying, furthering along the disciplinary process. Who exactly is at fault here is something that's still being teased out in litigation.

Brian: Now, I see that last year, prison authorities in New York State said they were suspending use of drug tests by one of the companies that was found to have some faulty ones. Is there something in place to keep this from happening again?

George: In that case, that was with a different drug test from a company called Sirchie, which was testing contraband. What's great about that kind of test, and it's why it's used by police, corrections officials, et cetera, is that it's really easy and it's really simple. It's the kind of thing where you drop a substance into a pouch, you shake it up, and then it turns a certain color, and that color is supposed to indicate whether it's positive or negative. What toxicologists have told us is that's a great starting point to try to figure something out, but then you need to do actual lab work, which requires more expertise and is more expensive.

As long as DOCCS is not actually taking those steps, as long as the state authority is not actually doing that lab work, there is nothing that will prevent these screening tests from producing false results that have real consequences for people. DOCCS hasn't answered our questions as to why they were using this screening test in that way. We don't necessarily know what is happening now if another product is being used in a similar way and could lead to another story a few months from now.

Brian: The name of that company, Sirchie, you said. Is that like high-security shampoo? They're being cute about a company that makes things to search people and they call it Sirchie?

George: I hadn't thought of that, Brian.

Brian: I guess TBD.

Bianca: I do want to, Brian--

Brian: Bianca, we have time for just one more question and say whatever you want, but I was wondering how you think the interests of the companies that make all these things affect corrections policies in this regard. How direct is-- there's profit motive in how people get treated and we've got one minute left.

Bianca: Sure. I just wanted to say quickly that Sirchie is a company that nobody's probably heard of, but a company called Thermo Fisher is actually the parent company of Microgenics. It's a huge medical technology conglomerate that's publicly traded that many people have heard of. These are companies that you know. I think in terms of just policy real quick, 100% these companies know how their products are being used.

As George said, they're sending people to the disciplinary hearings to testify against people who are incarcerated over products that are faulty and have false positives. They are not blind to it. They know how their products are being used and they're encouraging facilities to prioritize security and false senses of security over people's well-being.

Brian: Bianca Tylek is executive director and founder of Worth Rises. George Joseph is our police beat reporter here at WNYC and Gothamist. The latest Worth Rises WNYC Greene Space event, which will be more on this really fascinating topic of prison equipment, will be tomorrow night. A live virtual event at thegreenespace.org. When is that again? What's the start time again, Bianca?

Bianca: Seven o'clock evening.

Brian: Seven o'clock tomorrow night at thegreenespace.org. We'll talk to you again next Monday for next week's installment. Thanks so much.

Bianca: Thanks, Brian.

George: Thanks, Brian.

Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Much more to come.

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.