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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. It's been an unusual Olympics so far, to say the least. Delayed a year by the pandemic. Remember, this is supposed to be the 2020 Summer Olympics, not the 2021. Very much ongoing in Tokyo is the pandemic, and the rest of the world, with no fans or families in the stands, and teammates going into isolation for testing positive for COVID-19, the athletes are aiming for perfection under extraordinary pressure.

For American gymnast extraordinaire, Simone Biles, it was too much, as you've no doubt heard. Even if you don't know a balance beam from uneven bars, you probably heard the news that she withdrew in the midst of the team all-around competition earlier this week and subsequently, from today's individual all-around events as she herself put it--

Simone Biles: It's been really stressful this Olympic Games. I think just as a whole, not having an audience, there are a lot of different variables going into it, it's been a long week, it's been a long Olympic process, it's been a long year, just a lot of different variables. I think we're just a little bit too stressed out.

Brian: That was Simone Biles to reporters after leaving the team competition. Yes, all the athletes are stressed, and more open about mental health challenges, and seeking help than previous generations, but for Biles, she's not only the gymnast, she's a young Black woman in a sport that had mostly white participants, and coaches, and judges for so long. There's a lot to say about Biles's decision and what it says about sports, but let's spend a moment talking about why, as my next guest put it, for dope Black women like her, breaking records is never enough.

Candace Buckner is the Washington Post sports reporter focusing on the intersection of race, gender, and diversity issues in the world of sports, and her most recent column expands on that theme. Thanks so much for coming on, Candace, welcome to WNYC.

Candace Buckner: Thanks for having me and great usage of the word dope, Brian.

Brian: [laughs] It was your word I just had to know how to say it. For those of us who don't follow gymnastics, maybe remember from five years ago in Rio that Simone Biles won a lot of metals and that's all they know, she's got her own emoji of a GOAT in a red leotard. That's GOAT, as in greatest of all time, that's the way that word is used in this context. What does make her that, for people who don't know gymnastics?

Candace: Well, I will be in that same category of most Americans who follow this sport every four years and in this case, five years ago, but what makes her the GOAT is as you mentioned before, this woman literally has moves named after her. She's attempted, and she has executed a move that no female gymnast has ever accomplished. Just her accomplishments on the, I'll just say the mat or in the gym, unparalleled, unmatched. She is the greatest female gymnast of all time, simply

because the wins, and her body can do things that no other woman has done in the sport.

Brian: Can you go right to what you see in her story that resonates with other high-achieving Black women because people may at first think, "Well, there's nobody in the same position as Simone Biles." What does resonate with high-achieving Black women in other fields out there?

Candace: I'll never claim to speak for all Black women. I would just say there is a shared experiments of Black women, especially of a certain age. They have seen their mothers, their grandmothers, their aunties, have to bear so much and largely just put their head down and do it. Mostly in spaces where they are either few or the only one, whether that's the office space for some people, or as elevated as being the only one in their corporate America job, being the only one in Simone's spot. She's not literally the only African American gymnast because she was influenced by Dominique Dawes and other people, but she is the only one who is elevated to that elite, elite air.

We've seen other Black women just bear with it, put their head down, understand that they have to represent, not only themselves, but, unfortunately, I think even we put pressure on our own self because we feel like we have to represent all Black women because we don't want to be the one who messes up the next steps for the next person. We don't want to be looked at as less than, so we feel as if we're this avatar of what Black women can be. Unfortunately, again, for Black women of a certain age, the words mental and health, they weren't even said in a household. We've just been told and conditioned to just tough it out, be great and just take whatever slings and arrows come at you.

Brian: Now, listeners, I suspect some of you out there right now can relate to this, and we would love to hear your calls with maybe your stories or your questions for our guest. Have you faced the pressure of being a trailblazer, especially as a Black woman in sports or any field? Give us a call, 646-435-7280. Do you support Simone Biles in her decision to think of her mental health? I don't even think really that's the right way to ask the question, I think everybody supports her.

Candace: You'd be surprised, Brian.

Brian: Well, let's talk about that. We'll talk about that in a second. Let me just finish the invitation to the callers. Listeners, 646-435-7280, to tell your story of how you may relate. You don't have to be at Simone Biles' level of something, but maybe this touched a chord in you in respect to something in your life, especially if you're a Black woman. 646-435-7280 or tweet your 280 character version of your story or your question for our guest, Candace Buckner, Washington Post sports reporter focusing on the intersection of race, gender, and diversity issues. You know, I was just going to say that Simone Biles seems to be getting more support than she expected in her decision. Do you see it that way?

Candace: I do. Sometimes, I just think the outliers, the angry and loud trolls, they seem to stand out because they're so different from what the rest of the people are

saying. I have received-- it's funny, I don't read the comments on my stories, especially in this role, when I am really focusing on race and gender, you just don't read the comments.

However, some clever people like to go beyond the comments, and send emails, and I'm actually surprised at the amount of people, I would just say the amount of men, and I don't know their race, but they are men, saying that she let her team down, the media has built her up to be the "GOAT", and now they're trying to cover up and give her a landing pad for her fall. That's just surprising. I guess I should not be surprised, though they happen, but the overwhelming response is everyone needs to take care of their mental health first, even the greatest among us.

Brian: Do you think that the backlash, to the extent that there is backlash, has to do with a perception of the intersection of privilege and responsibility? When somebody's as famous as Simone Biles is, it's seen as a privilege, she gets to be a star, and so--

Candace: She's on commercials, yes.

Brian: Here she is on the big stage in her field, the Olympics, and she says, "No, I can't do it. I don't feel good."

Candace: A, considering that she's 24 years old, she's been doing this for all of her adult life, we'll say that, and most of her life, I can't imagine how difficult of a decision, even though she made it at that point, after her moment on the vault that she made that decision that, "No, I can't go out there," but I can't imagine how difficult to say, "I'm going to sit this one out," when you have been training five years. For all intents and purposes, this is her life's work, at this point of her life, gymnastics, and reaching this level. For her to say, "I can't do that," I'm sure that felt like a defeat.

Obviously, I'm not in her heart and mind, but that would have felt like a defeat to me, but I've just been impressed with the way that she has articulated her emotional and mental stress, and have really done so just calmly, and made us all understand what she was going through, and why she never used injury as a crutch. She could have. The organization said it was a medical issue and she came back and said, "No, it's mental," and I appreciate her transparency and honesty, and that takes strength to do that on a public stage.

Brian Lehrer: How much do you think it is a generational shift in how open we are with issues of mental health?

Candace: Wow. Yes. I am a child of the '80s, I can't imagine, and I grew up loving and wanting to be, Jackie Joyner-Kersee and Flo-Jo. I think if those women would have stopped, they just probably would have been, and just said, "I can't do it, my head's not in it," it would have been as if they're speaking Latin. It's just so unheard of, but you see Simone Manuel in swimming. She was the first Black woman to win an individual swimming gold medal, and she revealed that she has struggled with something called overtraining syndrome and depression.

Naomi Osaka, that's the very famous example before Simone Biles, she says she just needed a break. Of course, Sha'Carri Richardson is a different category, but she also was candid about her mental struggles that led her to using cannabis. These are all young women in their 20s, and right now, the generational shift is happening and I think it's for the best.

Brian: Sharon in Queens. You're on WNYC with Candace Buckner from the Washington Post. Hi, Sharon.

Sharon: Hi. As a product of bussing, I was always the only Black in my class. I was bused out to Long Island because of my mother, but the schooling was better. My mother is a product of South Carolina, and so we sat down. She told me the stories of what she went through in the South. She told me because she said it was not easy. "It's not going to be easy for you Sharon because you're smart." I graduated with honors, and I became a systems engineer for a major bank, and I was a trainer. I traveled all over the country training systems to bankers. One day the guy said, "Is the teacher here yet?" I says, "No, I'm the board wiper, but what do you think?"

I knew from the beginning of my career that I was going to be a trailblazer, and a representative of everything of color. I've took it on to the point where I worked for them for 20 years, and then I went to work for non-profit, because at some point, there was a glass ceiling and I knew I was not going to crack it at that point, but I tell these stories to my daughter, like my mother told me. It's okay if you feel bad and if you don't want to go to work, don't go to work. If you're feeling uneasy, don't go. You don't have to represent me. You don't represent anybody but yourself. My mother helped me with my mental attitude, and she took care of me, because she went through so much worse without any support.

Brian: Yes, and great message that you're delivering to your daughter. Candace, do you want to talk to Sharon?

Candace: Hey, Sharon. I appreciate you saying that to your daughter, and letting her know that she doesn't have to carry the race, she doesn't have to carry the family name. She doesn't have to carry her mama on her back. I'm sure your daughter appreciates that. That's given her a chance to breathe, and be her own woman, so kudos to you.

Brian: Sharon, thank you.

Sharon: Thank you for this. Thank you so much and have a blessed day.

Candace: You as well.

Brian: You, too. Henry in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Henry. Thanks for calling in. 

Henry: Thanks Brian. Short time listener, but big fan. I'm a Black male doctor in Brooklyn and I get, I like to get a little spooked. The shifts where somebody starts off dead and it's like, you go on the rest of your shift and I get that feeling of, I need to take a pause for mental health. I support Simone Biles in that, especially as Black doctors, not many of us, so we're on stage. I'm a kid of a Black mom who's,

obviously my mom's Black, and she's a nurse, a strong woman from back in the day.

She always came home, made dinner for us every night, full-time jobs, was appointed supervisor. We comes from a strong background, such a strong like traditionalism. Women's health is not part of that generation, but they bear through, they get through and then coming into being my own as an adult and as a professional man, it's tough to repeat that generation. I'm proud of her being on stage and saying, "I'm still as strong as that past generation, but we're doing it in our own way."

Brian: Do you think that you've hit points where you had to deal with certain pressures that resulted in certain mental health challenges, and you've had to deal with them differently because of your minority status in the field?

Henry: I think healthcare made change for doctors at times, but I think I have my own pressures that other doctors aren't going to get, because I'm just isolated, I'm the only one. At one point I was the only Black doctor, male doctor in my medical school. I was residency, it more diverse, but at any given time, in every conversation, I'm the only one in the room. Yes, there are times where it adds up, but it makes you stronger, and it also affects you in a negative way, too. It does both. For a long time, I could have done anything.

Brian: Henry, thank you so much for your call and please call us again. On that isolation of feeling like you're the only one you in the room or whatever, there are other gymnasts of color on the US Olympics team this year. I'm not going to do a spoiler about a result I know from today concerning one of them, but is gymnastics more in general, on its way to being a sport that reflects the diversity of this country more than before?

Candace: I would say so. I shouldn't do the spoiler as well, however, but the team this year, unfortunately-- I shouldn't say unfortunately, but it was only four participants and three of the four participants were women of color. Actually, in the Washington Post before the team competition, our writer in Tokyo, Emily Giambalvo wrote exactly that, that in the future, the teams will represent more diversity simply because these young girls are seeing, and it seems like a very simple concept, but to see somebody on a stage and saying, "You know what? She looks like me, I can do that. I can totally do that," and that they enter these gyms and eventually they train and they could potentially represent the US on this stage.

After this Olympics, gym schools I believe in the story, said, gym schools will expect a surge of more Black and brown, and girls of color signing up for the sport.

Brian: The importance of seeing yourself writ large, reflected in popular media, right?

Candace: Right. It just sounds very simple, but it's true and a lot of us who are-- it's funny, I actually had this conversation recently. I didn't realize that pretty much every newspaper I had gone to, I was the first African American woman to write for the sports department, but I wanted to get into sports because I saw Robin Roberts. Of

course, I thought I was going to be Flo-Jo, but once that dream died, it was great seeing someone, although I didn't see a Black woman in print media, I saw one on television and that was inspiring.

Brian: All the wannabe athletes in sports journalism. Helen in East Village, you're on WNYC. Hi, Helen.

Helen: Good morning, Brian. I just turned on the radio and I heard your caller talking about how she was told by mother that she was intelligent and no matter what she did, she'd have a hard time. She went on to become a systems engineer, which is exactly what I did with my life. A couple of years ago, you guys did a story about me, because I stood up to Dell and I said, "You guys are racist. You're sexist, you're homophobic, and you make it impossible for people who are not white men to work here in these white collar sales, business leadership roles within that company."

It really resonated with me, because it was exactly my own experience, but the broader conversation about how exceptional Black people are and unable to participate on the same terms of everyone else is really what this conversation is about. I'm really happy that you take time to talk about this stuff, but I would so much love to turn on the radio someday, and hear some of the colleagues I used to have, or some white folks, just talking about their experience and about what it is like to participate in any of these systems from that perspective, because I think it's just time for that to become the pop conversation, and then-- you don't have that much time.

Let me just say my last thing and hang this up so you can move on to the next person, but the young women in all these sports who say, "I'm not going to do it." I love so much to see that because it's really different than what my parents would've done, or even what the expectations were for me to do in my generation. I'm 39, but for them to say, "No, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to sacrifice my mental health, my wellness and my life for the sake of this moment. I'm going to do what I need to do for me. I'm going to recoup and I'm going to move forward with my life on my own terms."

It's saving them so much because when you deplete yourself doing things you have no business doing, it can kill you. I'm just so glad that these young women said no to the whole world, and put their feet down, and are putting their wellness first. I commend them, and it inspires me, even though I'm older than them, and that's all.

Brian: Wow, Helen, please call us again. Thank you so much. Candace, anything you want to say?

Candace: Well said. Helen, I'm two years older than you, but again, it's just in our generation, our mothers didn't get a chance to say, "No, I need a break and no, I'm not going to take that." I think a few of us maybe have started that, but these young guns coming up, they have been such good role models. Just speaking so openly and transparently, and not not thinking that they're weak, and not accepting anybody saying that they're weak, but being honest about themselves and taking their breaks, because sometimes, you just need time to yourself.

Brian: We'll close with that thought about the young guns coming up, because in your column, you looked at two young Black women blazing their own trail. Spelling bee champion, Zaila Avant-garde. People may have seen her 10 minutes of fame recently. As I read into her story a couple of weeks ago, I was seeing how she's not only a spelling whiz, she's also a math and science nerd, and other kinds of things. She's really all-around amazing and so young, and a young go-kart racer who I never heard of, who you wrote about, Violet Townsend. You want to put the two of them and in the context of this conversation about Simone Biles?

Candace: Most of these professional drivers, when they're young, they start exactly where Violet has started. Of course, most of these star drivers that we know now, they're white men. There is Bubba Wallace. However, these are white men who are, they're dominant ones in this sport, but she's setting her own, blazing her own trail. She wants to be a professional racer, and she's doing exactly what you're supposed to do when you're in that space. She's doing a darn good job, traveling around the Midwest every weekend. Her family is very into racing, and she'll be in Indianapolis this weekend for another race. Chances are, she'll be on the podium.

For Ms. Avant-garde, the brains of the operation here. She's also into basketball and setting Guinness book world record. They're both young, 15, 14, and I just hope that whatever they do, they already have the drive. They're going to do something amazing, but whatever they do, they do it for themselves. If they want to be a mentor to people coming up after them, great, but they shouldn't have to carry on a deeper narrative of, let's say, Black academia or let's now be the only Black woman in racing and all that entails, and the responsibility of getting more to get into racing. Let them just be great and live their lives.

Brian: Candace Buckner, Washington Post sports reporter, focusing on the intersection of race, gender and diversity issues. Thank you so much, please come back.

Candace: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. This has been great.

Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, more to come.

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