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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, Call-In, we'll have a guest too, but I want to open up the phones right away for Muslim listeners of different generations on how much about your faith you share online. This is based on an article on The Verge, and we'll have the writer on in just a second, about a generational difference, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Why do we ask? Well, you'll remember in the post 9/11 world, the Islamophobic hysteria that gripped the country and the city, or maybe you're a Muslim who had to live through it, and you don't just remember it in some abstract outside way, so we're going to open up the phone lines for any Islamic faith callers at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You'll remember there was an orchestrated effort by the NYPD to uncover what was perceived as radicalization in Muslim communities, and it subjected Muslims in New York City and neighboring states to sweeping surveillance, neighborhoods were mapped, and put under video surveillance, all kinds of things.

They never uncovered a potential terrorist threat through some of the programs that they put in place, but today, do you still live in fear of being surveilled or attacked online, at least in writing or verbally, if you do engage? For younger and older generations, it seems to be different, so what generational differences do you see amongst your family or others in your community, if you're younger, or if you're older, on how much you share, and they share on social media and the internet about your identity, about your faith, about your politics for that matter.

Once again, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Our guest is Zainab Iqbal, freelance journalist and author of a recent piece for The Verge titled, After Decades of Surveillance, Muslims Struggle with How Much to Share Online. Zainab, welcome to WNYC today, thanks so much for coming on.

Zainab Iqbal: Thanks for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: Could you start with what generational differences you see which was part of this article?

Zainab Iqbal: Yes. I found the younger generation, mostly Gen Z, or even millennials, it varied, but most of them, they were very vocal about being online. They were not afraid. They wanted to get their opinions out there, whereas the older generation, they are, I guess, more cautious.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have older people warning younger people, "No, don't go there. You shouldn't be saying so much on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram," wherever they are, that kind of dynamic?

Zainab Iqbal: I'm sorry, can you repeat that? It just cut off.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have the older people saying, "Don't be sharing so much, it's not safe for you?"

Zainab Iqbal: Oh, yes, for sure. By older people, I would think about my parents, for example. They are very hesitant about sharing stuff online or even sharing stuff in classes like, "Don't talk about anything political. Don't engage in these sorts of conversations," because they are afraid.

Brian Lehrer: Let's talk about some of the reasons that they're afraid that you write in this article. Why was now the time to look back, and what are you looking back on?

Zainab Iqbal: 9/11 surveillance, it started in 2002. The surveillance took place for over a decade. They had these informants who went inside mosques, who went inside places that people felt safe and they befriended these people. They went to their weddings and had sleepovers with them, and they were their best friends. These Muslims had no idea they were being surveilled, and just imagine finding out years later that this friend was an NYPD informant the entire time. That's where it stems from, that fear, that anxiety, the distrust in people, in members of your own community, and it just goes from there. Now, instead of physical surveillance, people are afraid of online surveillance because everything is done online now.

Brian Lehrer: It's so easy to surveil online, compared to in-person, which I'm sure leaves many people feeling at risk. Let's take a phone call. Namina, in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Namina.

Namina: Hi, Brian. How are you? Happy holidays. I'm 63 going 64. I'm the parent, and I have a daughter who just turned 23. I came from Sierra Leone. I'm a Muslim person. I go to prayer in Crown Heights. I would walk and go. You will see the police there. The Imam will tell you, "Be careful what you do, what you say, because they're watching us." It's sad because I came from a country where I go to pray to the mosque, and you will see the Imam, you will see the Rabbi, you see the pastor. It's a community. It's not about who you worship or where you go worship at all, and now it's different.

My daughter is going for prayer. If she covers her head, I'm telling her, "Be careful, don't cover your head." She goes, "Mama, I'm going to." I go, "Don't cover your head because they're going to know you're Muslim." This is me telling my daughter today. It is so painful because I did not grow up like that. I grew up in a country where everybody-- It's a community and then, now here, and it's spreading. After the Blood Diamond where I went home in Sierra Leone, it's, "You're Christian, [unintelligible 00:06:44]." It's there now. It's not just America, it is spreading like wildfire, and I'm seeing it, and it's sad.

Brian Lehrer: What does your daughter say when you caution her against identifying herself so much when she walks out in public?

Namina: Well, this is a child that I homeschooled all her life. I homeschooled her because I want her to be independent and I want her to be a leader, not a follower. Here I am now telling her to go backwards, and she will fight, "No mama, I'm not going to do." She demonstrates. She goes, and she does, she say what she wants to say. She's very intelligent.

Now I'm telling her, she fights me. I did not fight my parents because I didn't go through that, but now she fights me, she tell me no. She will cover her head, and she will go, she will take picture. She'll tell everybody, "I'm Muslim," and everything. Here I am, I said, "That's my only child," and I'm scared. I pray like I've never prayed before. It's really heartbreaking.

Brian Lehrer: Namina, thank you very much for revealing this dynamic, which-- Zainab how much did you hear in reporting the story, those kinds of conversations?

Zainab Iqbal: In my story, I mostly talk to the younger generation, but even with them, they all varied. There was this one person I spoke to who said, "I know I am being surveilled online because there's no way that surveillance ever stopped, but why should I be active online? Why should I post things online to make it easier for someone who is tracking me?"

There was someone else who was like, "Why should Muslims not be their entire selves? Why should we have to hold back our opinions and what we believe in? Just for what?" He is way more vocal online with his stuff. I think it just varies. Some people are more cautious than others. Obviously, the older generation like this mother that was just on the phone, they are afraid because they've actually been through the physical part of the surveillance, so they know how much is at stake.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners of any generation who are Muslim, who else has a story of how much to share online, or even in the case of our previous caller how much to just look like you're an identifiable Muslim, whatever contributes to that when you go out in public? Is it different generationally in your family, or among other people you know? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Mustafa, in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Mustafa.

Mustafa: Brian, pleasure to speak with you. Huge fan. I had a question. I'm a Muslim, a native New Yorker. I went to Hunter College for my undergrad. Basically, I was under the same surveillance the previous callers were talking about. I also happen to be an imam at a mosque. I stopped going to Islamic clubs and Muslim clubs throughout universities because they're all affiliated. Whether you go to Hunter College or NYU, you can walk into any of these Muslim clubs and have a prayer room, a faith room to practice your prayers, and so forth.

The NYPD surveillance has made that really difficult for, I don't know about Muslims all over, but definitely myself, who's someone, I would argue, that I love my faith, but when you're under this kind of surveillance, whatever you want to do is move away from that. I'm wondering, my question is that when Mayor De Blasio leads the new administration, Eric Adams' administration will they start anew with the Bloomberg administration surveillance again? Will that start again? I know the De Blasio administration stopped that. I'm wondering whether or not when Eric Adams comes about, do Muslims start having to look over the shoulder again, is my question.

Brian Lehrer: It's a great question, and I think it certainly goes to some of the history, Zainab, that your article addresses, and for people who didn't know it, maybe you want to talk about it a little bit like the so-called demographics unit which surveilled Muslims after 9/11 under Bloomberg was disbanded in 2014, you recall, which is the first year that De Blasio came in and disbanded without ever developing a meaningful terrorism lead. Do you want to talk a little bit about that history and then answer Mustafa's question, to the extent that it's knowable, about Eric Adams' orientation on this?

Zainab Iqbal: Yes, for sure. The demographics unit is this internal group in the NYPD that began in 2002. What it did was it would map Muslim communities, it would conduct photo and video surveillance, it would track people who changed their names. One of the biggest things they did was they'd recruit informants. This trial, as you mentioned, it went over for a decade, and then it was discontinued because there was no lead.

To answer the question, nobody knows what he will do, if he would bring this surveillance back, or if he won't, because he does have a lot of history in the NYPD. I'm not quite sure about that, but I'm Muslim too. I think no matter who the mayor is going to be, we are always looking over our shoulders. Because that, I wouldn't say fear, but we want to be cautious. He's a democratic leader, but we are still going to be a little bit afraid, I suppose. I think no matter who comes on, that fear won't go away, if that makes sense.

Brian Lehrer: Those questions will have to be asked and answered once he's in office. Hey, I see somebody who you wrote about in the article is calling in, and so let's talk to Mosab on Staten Island. Mosab, you're on WNYC, hi.

Mosab: Hi. How is it going? I don't know if y'all can hear me.

Brian Lehrer: Good, I presume. Go ahead. I can hear just fine. Yes, we can hear you.

Mosab: Oh, awesome. Go for it.

Brian Lehrer: You go for it. I see your name. I think this is you in the article talking about your first encounter with surveillance. Do you want to talk about that a little bit, or why'd you call?

Mosab: Yes, certainly. When we're talking about surveillance for Muslim communities, it's not something that is very out there. It's something that whether people acknowledge it or not has been the common experience for Muslims of New York City. The first time that it was pretty clear to me was the experience as detailed in the article when, as an eight-year-old kid, I'm literally sitting in the mosque after Isha prayer, nighttime prayer and someone comes up, random person.

Never seen him before. Isn't someone who is familiar in the community, and he asks me what are my opinions on Hamas. Asking an eight-year-old kid that, who you don't know, just sitting in the corner of a mosque is definitely cause for concern. We never were able to independently verify this specific incident, but then later on, we found out that this mosque did have informants who came through it.

Something that even came out to college campuses, so my college campus, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, before I came to it in 2016, had a very big story about an informant who was there for about three semesters, two semesters. This is something that was part of the bread and butter of the Muslim experience in New York, and in America, and especially in New York where you had the center of counter-terrorism policy being developed.

Brian Lehrer: Mosab, thank you for your story. We're going to sneak one more in here, Rodwan in Manhattan, Rodwan, we've got about 20 seconds for you. Go ahead. Real quick.

Rodwan: Hi, Brian, very quickly, I'm just looking at all the fake videos that circulate online on Facebook, and sometimes it's like a real event. The person who made that video writes, "Oh this person asked this woman to remove her skirt, and look what the security guards are doing," when I researched the story, it had nothing to do with the real event. What if surveillance served the purpose of correcting, of stopping propaganda, of stopping conservating hatred against--?

Brian Lehrer: A provocative question, and we've got literally 30 seconds for Zainab, for a final answer. He asked, "What if surveillance is just for the purpose of making sure that nothing bad is going to happen?"

Zainab Iqbal: That doesn't even make sense because the demographics unit that started the whole surveillance thing, they didn't find anything bad amongst Muslims or anything. The NYPD, at its core, is supposed to protect people, and what this demographics unit, with this blanket surveillance of innocent Muslims that went on for over a year, and they found no new leads, so who was the NYPD protecting?

Brian Lehrer: That question is where we have to end. Zainab Iqbal's article on The Verge is After Decades of Surveillance, Muslims Struggle With How Much To Share Online. Thank you so much.

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