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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. The 2022 Winter Olympics opened in Beijing on Friday, as most of you know, and beyond the games in play from the very start with a darker issue surrounding China's record on human rights. That's because China chose an Uyghur athlete to light the Olympic flame in unison alongside an athlete from China's Han majority. If you've been paying attention, remember that the US State Department has classified China's treatment of the Uyghurs and ethnic Muslim minority from Northwest China as a genocide using that word, and concluded that China is committing crimes against humanity against the Uyghurs as it is estimated that millions are being interned, tortured, and forced to undergo sterilization.

There are other concerns too on free speech. China has threatened punishment for athletes who speak out against the country. You'll remember just a few months ago, we did a segment on this, Peng Shuai, a Chinese tennis star disappeared from public sight after accusing a senior Chinese Communist Party official of rape. She made some kind of appearance today, and we'll talk about how stage that was.

There's also concern about the surveillance of athletes in the Olympic bubble as they come from all over the world. China using the games to promote its zero-COVID policy and digital yuan currency to the world, and US companies like Coca Cola turning a blind eye to China's human rights record and sponsoring the games anyway. Joining us now to talk about the issues in play at Beijing 2022 is Geoffrey Cain, senior fellow at the Lincoln Policy Network, and author of a recent book called The Perfect Police State: An Undercover Odyssey into China's Terrifying Surveillance Dystopia of the Future. Geoffrey, thanks very much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Geoffrey Cain: Thank you for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start with whatever you made of China having the Uyghur skier Dinigeer Yilamujiang, if I'm saying it right, light the Olympic flame alongside an athlete from the Han majority.

Geoffrey Cain: That move was not surprising. It was an effort to cover up and to ward off international condemnation of some of the human rights atrocities happening in China right now. In particular, in the region of Xinjiang and western China, this is where the Uyghur ethnic group is from. About 10% of the population has been taken away to a network of around 300 or so concentration camps. These are camps where they are forced to undergo physical and psychological torture where they are brainwashed into becoming good citizens of the Communist Party, and where really the Communist Party of China has enacted just a total surveillance dystopia beyond anything that we could have imagined 5, 10 years ago.

Using these particular Uyghur athletes to hold the torch, it's an effort to ward off that international condemnation to give a false impression that the Uyghur people of China are living in harmony with the nation, with the majority Han ethnic group and that there's really nothing to worry about here. It almost is a middle finger to many of the people who have been condemning some of the genocidal crimes happening in this particular region.

Brian Lehrer: I see on your Twitter that you were on a show a few days ago talking about how the Beijing Winter Olympics draws parallels to Hitler's 1936 games in Berlin. I think they teach in Journalism School, be wary of any comparison to Hitler from any side of any issue. How far do you want to go with that?

Geoffrey Cain: Yes, it is true. In the field of debate and rhetoric, there is a law called Godwin's Law that says that the first person to invoke Hitler and to accuse the other person of being a fascist, or whatever it might be, is the person who loses the debate because it's such an extreme comparison. It's rare to find Hitlers in the modern world today. That particular comparison, so looking at the Chinese government and other emerging authoritarian regimes today, one of the things that I've documented and others have documented in our work as investigative journalists going into some of these regimes, I've been to North Korea, to Myanmar, Russia, lived in a lot of these places for many years.

They now have more in common in 2022 with the more fascistic military regimes of the past than they do with the more communist Soviet regime. If you look at the People's Republic of China today, it does have a new style of leadership under the President Xi Jinping, who promulgates this personality cult and tries to convince his people that they come from a master race that has 5,000 years of glorious history and that these Uyghur are a separatist group.

He is committing what many governments now call a genocide against the Uyghur Muslim group, they're predominantly Muslim. We could go on and on with these parallels to the past. It used to be unreasonable to compare some of these actions with what fascist regimes have done before. Now, that comparison is no longer out of line, it is fair to make this comparison to the 1936 Olympics, as an exercise in trying to normalize and justify some of the more heinous acts that have been happening in China today.

Brian Lehrer: Talk more about that last part, what does Xi Jinping want out of the Olympics in terms of normalizing what you were just describing, and in terms of China's power in the world generally?

Geoffrey Cain: Yes. Xi Jinping very much wants China to be an equal with the larger nations and equal with America and the West. This is how he sees the trajectory of China that it's coming out of what the Chinese government will call the 150 years of humiliation, which was a period of great suffering, and it's now in this attempt to build the nation into something prosperous and greater. There's nothing wrong with that, in particular, with trying to bring prosperity to your people and to build a middle class and just to make life better for the people.

That by itself is fine, but what's happening now with the Olympics is that this is becoming an exercise in genocide denialism. This is an exercise in normalizing some of the more heinous aggressive acts that Xi Jinping and his government have promulgated in the past roughly 10 years. China used to be a different place. Now, it's taking on a more nationalistic tone, much more aggressive. It's been clamping down on democracy in Hong Kong, moving to commit genocide against the Uyghurs of Xinjiang, continuing oppression in Tibet and Inner Mongolia.

Also, has been threatening Taiwan, with what appears to be the threats of some kind of invasion of the future doing these military exercises, and also expanding into the South China Sea, which is a very strategic area for a lot of nations for its oil trade and for some of the shipping lanes that go through there. What's happening now is that the Olympics-- This isn't just China, but dictators love the Olympics as something that gives legitimacy to what they're trying to accomplish.

When you have a major body such as the International Olympic Committee coming to your country, and essentially going along with a lot of the propaganda lines that you've been pushing all these years, it really does make it look like there's nothing really that wrong here, that if the Olympics are held here, maybe actually Xi Jinping is right, maybe he's not such a villainous character after all.

Brian Lehrer: On normalizing atrocities through Olympic publicity and the historical comparison to Hitler and the Berlin Olympics of 1936, listener tweets, though, it's a hypothetical. "It's a good thing the Olympics wasn't around when slavery was being practiced here." Just putting that tweet out there. Listeners, our lines are open at 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. If you have a question or a thought for our guests Geoffrey Kane, who is the author of the book The Perfect Police State: An Undercover Odyssey into China's Terrifying Surveillance Dystopia of the Future. 212-433-WNYC, 433-9692. How does the surveillance dystopia relate to what they call the zero-COVID policy in China around the Olympics?

Geoffrey Cain: Yes. The zero-COVID policy comes with the goal, as the name implies, just wiping out COVID in the country. I personally don't believe some of the numbers that China is publishing. I think that they've shown  particularly in the early days of the pandemic, the Chinese government has shown a tendency to suffocate criticism, to arrest dissidents. There were dissidents who were reporting different realities on the ground in the early days of the pandemic who ended up in prison or disappeared. A lot of the data is not entirely reliable.

I was originally talking about the Uyghurs in particular. One of the things that's been happening recently during this time of the Olympics is that a lot of the surveillance technologies that were deployed against the Uyghurs originally, and we're talking about five years ago, six years ago, back around 2016, these were a contact tracing, these were geo-located notifications of certain people being in certain areas. These were technologies that deployed grid workers who are able to track the behavior of neighbors or people in this region.

These were originally surveillance technologies that were being used to oppress and surveil and control the Uyghur people to force them to assimilate to the larger national cause. What's alarming about the Olympics now is that these same technologies are now being deployed across the entire nation and also in other countries too. They've been exported and sold, and they're being sold to regular people not as civil liberties violations. There's no question about that anymore. They're simply being seen as regular safety measures.

Now, of course, it's perfectly reasonable to want to stop COVID using regular safety measures like masks or maybe some kinds of contact tracing. That's not the problem, but the problem here is that these specific technologies were actually used to oppress an entire group, and now the Chinese government is rolling them out and selling them as something that's a part of normal everyday life that if you're going to be in China, you have to worry about say your social credit score, the things that you buy at the grocery store, whether or not you've bumped into somebody who might have tested positive, at some point. The state has become an all-seeing eye that watches everyone, but not everyone is sure when they are being watched or when they're being scrutinized in some way for what they're saying or doing. That is the model here, the panopticon as it is called.

Brian Lehrer: Marie in the Bronx; in the Kingsbridge section of the Bronx to be particular. I see you [unintelligible 00:12:38] our screen, Marie. Hi, you're on WNYC.

Marie: Hello. Good morning. I am not watching the Olympics, given everything I've heard in the last few years about China and this morning on public radio. A report that 40% fewer viewers watched the opening ceremonies. I want to know if the reports on China in the last year or two have had a worldwide effect through the media on this loss let's say viewership.

Brian Lehrer: Great question. Geoffrey Cain?

Geoffrey Cain: Yes. Yes. Very good question. I think so. I think that there used to be a kind of consensus on what to do about China in the past. The consensus used to be that we should trade with China. We should help China open to the markets. We should have the Olympics there, say, back in 2008, because all of these measures are going to show China's leaders that there's a world community out there that they can be a part of, that if they just open up, if they relax their grip, if they host the 2008 Olympics all those years ago that things will get better for them if they just simply stop being so authoritarian in their ways.

We're now seeing that the opposite has happened, that efforts to engage China have had the unintended consequence of empowering the leaders of this regime at the expense of the wellbeing of the Chinese people. They're simply taking their market access, taking the Olympics, taking the new money in capital that's coming into the country, and using it to enrich themselves at the expense of the nation as a whole. The People's Republic of China, the government there has done a number of alarming things over the past couple of two to three years.

The aggression against Taiwan, the use of cyber espionage to undermine outside companies, the genocide against the Uyghurs. This has alarmed a lot of the world out there, both democratic governments and regular people to the point where-- I do think that there is a China fatigue that has set in, in which this consensus that existed before has broken down, and now it's a very divisive situation in which either you boycott the Olympic games or just don't watch it because you're just tired of what the government there has been doing, or you have to show some kind of support, maybe argue that China is misunderstood, that we need to continue engaging it, that things are still better over the horizon.

It's a very deeply divided system right now. This is one of the reasons why the viewership numbers have been falling from the Olympics from the past, from the 2008 Olympics. The 2008 Olympics was supposed to be the coming-out party. It was supposed to be the big moments when this was going to be a better time. This year, the 2022 Winter Olympics is turning out to be the opposite. It's the moment when the leaders of this government are exploiting international recognition to justify their actions over the past few years.

Brian Lehrer: Have you seen the breaking news this morning about the Chinese tennis star Peng Shuai who some of our listeners know had disappeared after she made sexual assault allegations against the former high-ranking member of China's ruling Communist Party? The AP story on this, the headline is "Peng Shuai emerges at Olympics, gives controlled interview". I just cited the AP's language on what her original allegation was before she disappeared from public view. I see there's a quote from her in this interview today in which she says she never made such sexual assault accusations. Was there some kind of hostage video today of Peng Shuai?

Geoffrey Cain: Yes, I believe so. The International Olympic Committee has played a key role, and this is something that they deny, but they have played a role it appears in propagating some of the government propaganda around Peng Shuai. Peng Shuai had originally accused a top party official of rape and sexual assault. She disappeared shortly after. She reappeared in some videos and spoke with International Olympics Committee officials in these controlled interviews and these controlled phone calls.

This was merely the latest of her appearances. This time she's walked back and now she says that she has not accused anyone of sexual assault. Just today, the International Olympics Committee spokesman was asked at a press conference by one of the journalists there about whether they stand behind the contents of that video. The spokesman's response was that, the International Olympics Committee is merely a sporting body, that they are in no place to judge, but then also I guess scolded the person asking the question and said that, "You're not in a place to judge that either."

At least what it appears, the policy or the stance of the Olympics is it has been a very ambiguous stance, but it appears that what they are saying is that they're simply going to air these interviews and it's not their problem if these are hostage videos or not. That sort of the implied statements that I've been hearing for them. A number of Olympic athletes have contacted me personally asking what is permissible to say at this Olympics.

They're not sure how the government there is going to react say if they make an off remarked statement about the Uyghurs or something. The Chinese government has made clear that Chinese law will be upheld and that these statements and speech by athletes does fall under the structures of Chinese law and also the rules of the International Olympics Committee, which prohibits political speech and racially charged speech during actual sanctions event.

Brian Lehrer: Marie in Kingsbridge, thanks for calling in and starting this last section of the conversation. Call us again. We go next to Rashmi in Port Washington. You're on WNYC. Hello, Rashmi.

Rashmi: Hi, good morning. How are you? I just had to make a point that the cities are selected or the countries are selected way in advance, like four to eight years ago. I think that is the time to decide that you will not go. Problem in China are nothing new. Everyone knew about it and they go on and on, but to make it political now when these athletes who have worked so hard to get there, you're really depriving them of a lifetime chance. That's what I think. I think we all know about it or we support other countries like Saudi Arabia and Yemen-- not Yemen, but Saudi Arabia and all other dictatorial countries. It is true China is not an ideal state. We all know about this, but you give our athletes a chance. That's what I think.

Brian Lehrer: Rashmi, thank you very much. What were you thinking as you heard that call, Geoffrey?

Geoffrey Cain: It is true that the host countries of the Olympics are decided through a bidding process about eight years in advance. The bidding process-- it hasn't always been the most ethical and clean bidding process of sporting events around the world. There have been many allegations of various bribes being given and just crazy things happening around how these host countries are chosen. Back when China was decided as the host country of this Olympics, there were many people who were raising the alarm bells.

It's not something that is coming up right now necessarily, but in the years since the bidding process happened for China, in the years since then, various governments have accused China of genocide and have begun using the word genocide against the Uyghurs. It wasn't seen as a genocide before because the concentration camps and the various forced sterilization measures had not come into practice back then, but yes, I agree. It is important to give our athletes a chance.

This is a big deal. I personally wouldn't hold it against them if they want to go compete in the Olympics. That's great for them. My concern is just the deep restrictions on speech and the fact that they simply-- In performing in the Olympics and competing in the Olympics, they're essentially required to take a vow of silence on any kind of concern or political issue or human rights abuse that they've been following.

Brian Lehrer: The US and other countries announced a diplomatic boycott of the Beijing Games while allowing the athletes to go. Is the diplomatic boycott, meaning I guess government dignitaries aren't going with the athletes to be part of the show at the Olympics, is that largely symbolic or could that have any real consequence and meaning to and for China?

Geoffrey Cain: I don't think it's symbolic because it comes with a number of sanctions against Chinese government entities, people, and various companies that have been found by governments around the world to be directly involved in this genocide and in these human rights abuses. There are-- the US government and other governments, they run a long list of people who are now sanctioned, their assets have been frozen, they can't do business in the US or in certain European countries in the European Union. You could say that this is the backing for the more symbolic decision to diplomatically boycott the Olympics.

What has essentially happened is that through its own actions, the Chinese government has isolated itself more and more from the democracies of the world. It certainly moved closer to some of the middle income, some of the more developing countries that aren't quite as-- that want Chinese technology, that want Chinese surveillance. In the process of doing so, China has really alienated itself from some of the larger markets out there, some of the larger opportunities.

We will see what happens. I think a lot of this is still up in the air. It's not totally clear what the world will look like with this US-China competition happening now, what it will look like in five years, but it is very possible that we could be living in a world of two spheres in which you must choose: either you're on a technological and trade platform that consists of the US and the European Union and Japan versus another a separate platform or a separate bubble that consists of Chinese technologies and Chinese trade opportunities for other countries.

Brian Lehrer: We're almost out of time talking about the Olympics in Beijing in a political context with Geoffrey Cain, author of The Perfect Police State: An Undercover Odyssey into China's Terrifying Surveillance Dystopia of the Future. Let's get at least one more call in here. Tina in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Tina, you have a comment on the opening ceremonies, right?

Tina: Yes. I had a question about the snowflake aesthetic. It seems like snowflake is an insult that's just being thrown around in American politics to death and it's so divisive. I just couldn't help-- if the young Uyghur athlete was a middle finger to the world, maybe the snowflakes was, too.

Brian Lehrer: Interesting. For people that don't know, in the US context that word is usually used by people on the right when people who are women or people of color in this country take offense to things that are seen as sexist or racist or also in the LGBT community and really any marginalized community speaking up about it, "Oh, you're a snowflake." I didn't see the opening ceremony. Did you think there was that overtone in whatever snowflake aesthetic there was, Geoffrey?

Geoffrey Cain: I did watch the opening ceremonies. Actually, I didn't notice that particular aesthetic. It didn't really grab my eye personally, but yes, I do agree that sometimes these words that are thrown around, snowflake or whatever it might be, these are very loaded terms, and these are usually designed to shut down a rational conversation about or a debate about what maybe two people disagree about what needs to be done. When they use these terms, it very unfairly shuts down a debate over progress or what needs to be done in the future or whatever it might be. I don't know. The snowflake aesthetic didn't catch my eye. I don't know if that's connected in any way, but it's-- I just, to be honest, didn't really notice that one.

Brian Lehrer: We are going to leave it there for now. There are other things that we could get into on other days. The currency promotion of bitcoin is a thing here. China seems to be trying to use the games to promote its own digital currency to the world. Also, the decision by US corporations, some of them, to sponsor the games despite all the things that we've been talking about.

Listeners, you're going to make your own decisions about whether you watch the Olympics even, or if you do, how you think about China and the US and the corporations involved in the IOC. We thank our guests Geoffrey Cain, who is the senior fellow at the Lincoln Policy Network and author of the book The Perfect Police State: An Undercover Odyssey into China's Terrifying Surveillance Dystopia of the Future. Thank you so much for joining us.

Geoffrey Cain: Thank you for having me, Brian.

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