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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. As we've discussed on the show, the state's COVID era moratorium on evictions, the New York State eviction moratorium ended two weeks ago leaving tenants in New York on the edge of eviction for inability to pay to rely on protection from the state's Emergency Rental Assistance Program or ERAP. As many of you know, the state coffers funding for the program are empty, and a new report from the Association for Neighborhood and Housing Development says this temporary solution isn't enough anyway.

As of last week, more than 296,000 tenants in New York State had applied to ERAP since it began in June 2021. More than 160,000 applicants have been paid or approved for rental assistance, drying up the $2 billion originally in the fund. The state says an additional 174,000 households could be covered with the additional $1.6 billion that Governor Kathy Hochul requested from the federal government last week.

However, according to census data cited in the ANHD report as many as 600,000, or 595,000 to be precise, tenants in the state are currently behind on rent. Even with ERAP, the rent assistance program, and the state moratorium pausing evictions, landlords filed more than 110,000 eviction cases throughout the pandemic. Throughout the state, communities of color experienced twice as many eviction filings as areas that are majority white.

Here in New York City, for example, predominantly white areas mostly saw rates of less than five eviction filings per every 100 households. Rates were higher and at least a third of majority people of color communities. The report cites five hotspots with rates of nine filings per 100 households. These zip codes include Northwest Staten Island, Corona, Queens, and three in the Bronx encompassing Kingsbridge Heights, Fordham Heights, and Highbridge.

Here to explain more of the reports, details, and findings and to offer advice if you're at risk of eviction for inability to pay yourself, is the executive director of the Association for Neighborhood and Housing Development, which issued this report. That executive director is Barika Williams. Also with us, Judith Goldiner, an attorney in charge at the Legal Aid Society's Civil Law Reform Unit. Thank you both for coming on the show. Welcome back both of you to WNYC.

Judith Goldiner: Thanks so much, Brian.

Barika Williams: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we invite your phone calls on this. First of all, you can tell us your stories. If you are behind in your rent because of inability to pay directly or indirectly related to the COVID pandemic, have you applied to the state Emergency Rental Assistance Program known by its initials ERAP? 212-433-WNYC. What was your experience like? Was it easy working with your landlord to get the application through, and did it end up being funded?

If you think eviction proceedings are beginning or about to begin against you now that the moratorium has ended, you can give us a call for advice, or anyone else with a story to tell or question, 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

Judith, I want to turn to you first as the attorney in the room. Have a lot of evictions started already now that the eviction moratorium expired in New York State a few weeks ago? I saw one article that said no flood of evictions yet. What do you know?

Judith Goldiner: There's a flood of cases, however, and the flood of cases we are concerned will lead to a flood of evictions if the state legislature doesn't act rapidly to pass two important solutions to this problem. One is passing Good Cause Eviction, which would protect tenants who are not subject to rent stabilization or don't live in public housing or other subsidized housing, and from unfair evictions, and also the Housing Access Voucher program, which would help people pay their rent long term.

I think, Brian, what we're really seeing is a crisis of affordability in New York City with our unemployment rate so high and we need to make sure that we have these long-term solutions to protect people, not just short-term solutions.

Brian Lehrer: I'm glad you mentioned the unemployment rate, because people may see these national numbers reported in the news about fast economic growth and much lower unemployment than at the height of the pandemic. New York is such a tourism and hospitality industry, heavy state, because New York is such an arts and entertainment industry, heavy state, and some other things, we have twice the unemployment rate as the national average right now in New York State, which obviously means that many more people at risk of eviction because of inability to pay.

Barika Williams from ANHD, can you put some more meat on those bones by talking about the findings in the report that you just issued that I mentioned in the intro?

Barika Williams: Brian, to put some numbers on what you were talking about with unemployment, as of mid-January this year, we're still at approximately 810,000 New Yorkers who are out unemployed or underemployed, and who are not working, many of which are caring for somebody sick or not in an industry that has come back or sick themselves. We have to understand that the number of unemployed New Yorkers is ongoing, and we're going to continue seeing this.

What that translates into is that we have 600,000 households who are still behind on rent as of mid-January. That's based on census household polls numbers that takes up through the mid-January 2022. It's also likely an undercount. We understand all the ways that census undercounts our most vulnerable and marginalized communities and households. We also have to recognize that we know that that number is likely higher.

At the same time, as we've gone through this COVID crisis, we've still seen 110,000 residential eviction cases moving through in the state. It's understanding that we have a large chunk of our New York State population who are behind on rent and continue to be behind on rent, that we have a significant part of our population continue to be unemployed or underemployed. That we continue to see residential eviction cases, as Judith was saying, starting and a 7.6% unemployment rate.

Brian Lehrer: 7.6% unemployment rate, which is a high unemployment rate by any historical standards. Let's take our first caller. Richard up in Hudson, New York, has a story of applying to the Emergency Rental Assistance Program. Richard, you're on WNYC. Thank you for calling in.

Richard: Hey, Brian, how are you?

Brian Lehrer: All right. What you got? What's your story?

Richard: I applied for the ERAP program 1st in September, and my application was reviewed September 30th. It is still to this day under review. My landlord has participated in his necessary documents. Every time that I've called, which I call almost every day to make sure that all of my things are there. They always say yes, confirmation that all of your documents are in. Then this last time that I called, there were documents missing that my landlord and I had to resubmit. I don't know where things are going from there, but my application is still under review since September 30th.

Brian Lehrer: It sounds like you're very frustrated by the length of the delay, and also the inconsistent responses to you telling you that you have all your documents in order and now not.

Richard: Correct.

Brian Lehrer: Judith, can you help Richard as an individual or put his story into context? Do you hear a lot of stories like that?

Judith Goldiner: We hear a lot of stories like this. Legal Aid alone submitted 200 applications in June of 2021, which are still pending. Even though the agency tells us that all our documents are in, we don't have a response for our clients yet. I agree it's incredibly frustrating. I really recommend that the caller talk to your state assembly member, talk to your state senator, call the governor's office because this ERAP program has really not been run well. You have a right to answers and so do my clients.

Brian Lehrer: Barika, I understand that the ERAP program which opened last June provides eviction protection for a year for tenants and their landlords who are approved. Here we already in January of 2022, about to go to February of 2022. Is there concern that some tenants only have a few months left of that safety net without getting their income stream back and what happens after that?

Barika Williams: There is concern. Unfortunately, as Judith was saying, there were so many issues and delays. The ERAP portal didn't open until about June 2021. We do have tenants who are potentially facing and coming up on halfway through their one year in for their application. Thankfully, thanks to Legal Aid, and others who really pushed to have the portal reopened, it does mean that folks can and should apply even though there isn't necessarily funding right now at the federal level for additional ERAP funds. That's because those eviction protections start from the time of your-- you are protected at the time of application.

It's important for everybody to understand that your application starts some additional protections, and that's why it's important to submit even if there isn't money. Really fundamentally, this comes back to a question of what is the long term solutions, the $1.6 billion that the governor has requested from the federal government. Some of the estimates are that we actually need more like $3 billion just to deal with what is currently in the system and the current need.

That doesn't address the fact that there's an ongoing pandemic, that doesn't address the fact that we know that there's going to be ongoing rent relief and rent debt need. As Judith was saying, at the beginning, in terms of, we need to put in place these long-term solutions, recognizing that there's an ongoing rental crisis in New York state including Good Cause Eviction and HAVP.

Brian Lehrer: Here's Lora in the Bronx, calling in who says she works with clients on rental assistance program applications. Lora, you're on WNYC, thank you for calling in.

Lori: Thank you. I submit applications to ERAP and my experience is very similar to the first caller from Hudson, which is that we can call, first of all, patients that I work with often don't have computer access. It takes a lot longer for us to submit the documentation because, they have to bring it in, we have to upload it. It was very, very not user friendly for the low income population who need it very, very badly.

It's very disorganized, they subcontracted with some organization in which every single time on a particular case I could call up, and they would give me a different answer. I still have clients who applied in the summer, and they're still waiting. I work even with the landlords and everybody's frustrated, so that's just my comment.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call, unfortunately. Here's a tweet, Barika, it's from a landlord, and says, "As a small landlord for units, we received some ERAP funds, Rental Assistance Program Funds, we keep rents as low as possible to keep our tenants but that means when someone can't pay, we're in danger of losing the building for all of them. Are there any other options for support for small landlords?"

Barika Williams: There are a couple of specific private and philanthropic run funds. I would say that what this landlord is saying is one of our NHT's significant concerns. Our members are nonprofit landlords, so they operate very similarly on thin margins. They do not have big reserves, and most of their financing is run by and restricted by various different government programs. We also know that many of our, especially small landlords, are in a similar boat.

One of the big concerns in the process and this also goes to the previous caller, is that some of what happened in ERAP is, the big landlords, the larger mega real estate conglomerates, were able to staff up, higher up, run through a process of making sure that everybody in their building as much as possible could get enrolled and listed and had the resources to get their folks to the front of the line.

What we have real concerns about is that who hasn't been paid out and who hasn't gotten to apply is more heavily on our nonprofit landlords or small landlords which disproportionately house our lower income rents and tenants. Have we created a system where we put our more comfortable tenants in the front? Everybody is behind on rental assistance and everybody needs this but we don't want to create a system where the folks who need it most and our lowest income residents are the ones who are not going to be able to utilize this program.

Brian Lehrer: Judith, for you as the attorney from the Legal Aid Society, in the segment, I've read that Rental Assistance Programs in other states that are similar to ERAP, resulted in many landlords refusing the relief money from their state's finding better financial incentive and evicting tenants in some cases. New York landlords aren't allowed to refuse the money under ERAP, but you've said the state might not enforce this. I'm curious how much of a concern or risk you think that is going forward now that the eviction moratorium has expired.

Judith Goldiner: We're very concerned about this, because there's a significant amount of money, almost $1 billion that's in the obligated pot, which means that tenants have done everything they need to do and are approved but the landlord's haven't done what they needed to do. Now, some of that is problems with the process like the person who tweeted at you said, but some of this is of real concern to us that some landlords are refusing. We haven't seen the state stepping up to the plate to bring actions against them to obligate them to accept this money.

Brian Lehrer: Here's an interesting legal question that's related. A caller asks, "If a landlord has written off unpaid rent as a loss on their taxes, is the tenant still liable for that back rent?"

Judith Goldiner: Well, I'm I am not a tax expert, Brian, but I believe the tenant is unfortunately still liable.

Brian Lehrer: Jay in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Jay.

Jay: Hi. I was successful getting ERAP, it took about three months from application to award. I was in court with my landlord and it became a point of contention because they had to keep me for a year after receiving the money. My rent was pretty expensive and I had a roommate that left and the landlord wouldn't let me put someone else on the lease so I became responsible for all of it. I was also doing Airbnb in my second bedroom and so we got into a fisticuffs over that but we've settled. They took the money, and I have until August, I'm not going to be able to renew my lease.

One of the things that I think is really interesting is we keep talking about the systematic issues. The cost of real estate is going up, and it's becoming unaffordable. In DC, they created a recordation tax. Every time a building sold, and there's a recording, a certain amount of that value goes into a trust fund for affordable housing. As you have properties increasing in value with all these transactions, it feeds this fund, and they monetize it over time, and they've been able to bond it so they can do significant investments in affordable housing.

Every county in the city has a Register of Deeds, and you could dedicate that pool of resources to affordable housing in that borough.

Brian Lehrer: Barika, you want to comment on that? Is there a model there for something?

Barika Williams: The model that the caller referenced in DC is one of many ways and tools that we can and should be thinking about supporting and funding affordable housing resources. There's a variety of different models across the country of how you can finance affordable housing trust funds, but fundamentally, the caller situation and scenario highlights that even if we have a huge trust fund, even as we're creating significant investments and dollars in affordable housing, so the governor just announced a new $25 billion 5-year housing plan. That doesn't change the question around fundamental housing rights as tenants.

We have to remember that as the caller highlighted, people have passed away, people have had to leave, people have had to shift their family dynamics. What is the situation and scenario where we're saying to this caller, "Yes, we recognize that you were in this unit, you would like to stay here, you can continue to pay for this unit, allowing for another roommate to come in, and we want to create an environment for you to be able to stay in your home and afford your home over time."

That's different from the trust fund, that's really fundamentally about appreciating tenants rights, trying to create a system that is fair for tenants and fair for landlords but especially fair for tenants, and that is focused on tenant longevity and safety and security in their homes.

Brian Lehrer: Judith, before we run out of time, we have a caller who we're not going to have time to put on the air in here, her whole pitch but she told our screener that she's concerned that the eviction moratorium has contributed to pushing up the price of rent in New York because landlords who can't get money from some of their tenants will try to get more money from those of their tenants who can pay. I see where you've said that the eviction moratorium was a blunt instrument. Could you comment on what that caller was saying and your own remark if I read it correctly?

Judith Goldiner: Yes. What the caller is saying is exactly why we support Good Cause Eviction, which is exactly what Barika was advocating for before. We will need a system where not only tenants are protected from eviction, but they're also protected from arbitrary rent increases. Good Cause is what's going to lead to permanent housing solutions along with a state section eight program, the housing access voucher program, which will allow people who are unemployed right now to continue to afford their homes. The combination of those two things.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, Good Cause Eviction meaning that if the state legislature passes that bill, no landlord in the state would be able to evict somebody without what kind of good cause, Judith?

Judith Goldiner: Non-payment of rent, you're a nuisance, you breached your lease, the landlord wants the apartment for their own personal use or that of their family. Very rational, very reasonable reasons why a landlord should be able to get a tenant out are included in the bill but no reason, which is what the current situation is for over 4 million New York State residents would not be allowed anymore.

Brian Lehrer: No reason. They couldn't evict for no reason but, Barika, if non-payment of rent is one of the just causes for eviction and a lot of people can't pay their rent because of all the economics we've been talking about what good does it do in this respect? Go ahead and this will be the last answer in the segment, Barika, so add anything you want.

Barika Williams: Right. I think one piece is also protecting against unreasonable increases in rent. A landlord using a 20% increase in rent without any investment, any reason, any cause, as a method and a mechanism to then get tenants out. Then it's important to note that this is common practice in other places, just across the water from us, New Jersey has good cause. They've had it for a long time.

This is what we're talking about, is not something that seems so far away. It's a clear policy about how we need and why we need multiple solutions, both immediate and in the short term but then also long-term sustainable forms of relief to support and to stabilize tenants across the state. This is not a New York City issue. We have partners across the state who are struggling with the same challenge and we really need to move forward a different solution so that New York can start leading in terms of housing stability

Brian Lehrer: Barika Williams, Research and Policy Associate at the Association for Neighborhood and Housing Development, which is out with this new report, and Judith Goldiner, attorney in charge of the Legal Aid Society Civil Law Reform Unit. Thank you both so much for joining us. I hope this was helpful to a lot of listeners who may fear eviction themselves.

Judith Goldiner: Thank you, Brian.

Barika Williams: Thank you, Brian.

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