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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. Here are two recent headlines, very much in conversation with each other. Both of these were written by personal finance columnists. Here's the first, The Day I Put $50,000 in a Shoebox and Handed It to a Stranger. I Never Thought I Was the Kind of Person to Fall for a Scam. Here's the second, Put Your Smugness Away, You Are Not Too Clever to Be Conned.

Now, that first headline, the one about the person being scammed out of $50,000 in cash is from a first person story by a personal finance columnist at The Cut named Charlotte Cowles. Cowles gets a call she believes to be from Amazon and the representative on the other end of the line alerts her to some apparent fraudulent activity on her account. They then transfer her call to what they say is the Federal Trade Commission, who then connects the fraud to a scary criminal case and tells her she and her family are in imminent danger. From there, the call is transferred to the CIA they claim, and eventually she's out $50,000.

If you're unsure how even an experienced personal finance columnist could fall for a scam of that sort, consider this from Michelle Singletary. “Natural-born skeptics might shake their heads at what they view as the gullibility of scam victims. You may consider yourself scam-proof, but the sophistication of today's schemes can snare even the most cynical among us.” Well, Michelle Singletary, personal finance columnist for The Washington Post who wrote that is the author of the other headline you heard at the top, Put Your Smugness Away. You are Not Too Clever to Be Conned. She joins us now. Michelle, welcome back to WNYC.

Michelle Singletary: Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we're going to take calls for Michelle Singletary. How do you avoid scams? Or if you fell victim to a scam, maybe your experience can help the next person avoid falling into at least the one you fell for, or what do you say to the person on the phone when you believe it is a scam? There are very clever retorts out there that I've heard some of. How do you avoid scams? What do you say to callers who you think are scammers and tell us when you got scammed so others can avoid it. 212-433 WNYC, or ask a question of Michelle Singletary, 212-433-9692.

Michelle, maybe we should start with that Charlotte Cowles’ $50,000 alleged Amazon Federal Trade Commission, CIA of all things scam. What would've made it believable? Any idea?

Michelle Singletary: Well, I think it started with the Amazon call and someone saying, "Oh, we think someone has hacked into your account." A lot of us have experienced that, our credit card being stolen, charged against us, and so that sounds very reasonable. Then the person didn't ask for money. The personal finance writer was saying that's what took her guard down. That there were several calls before there was a mention of money and all the calls before that was like, "Oh, we want to help you. There's this case against you. Somebody's been using your name and your social security number." They weave this tale and they sound like they're helping you, and then obviously, the whole intention is to get to the point where they're asking you for money.

Brian Lehrer: Will the government ever ask you over the phone, just to put a fine point on it, to pay money in order to avoid arrest?

Michelle Singletary: No, absolutely not. They won't ask you for money. They certainly wouldn't ask you for cash. Your government wants receipts, send a check or money order and they won't ask you for a gift card. They won't ask you to wire the money. Any requests for money from the government in these ways, especially making it urgent that you're going to be arrested if you don't pay them is a scam.

Brian Lehrer: It seems to me that the scam industry for all the previous attempts to fight it, and if I can call it an industry, I realize it's a lot of scattered individual scams, it seems like there's more of them out there all the time trying to fish for us in one way or another. Is that your impression?

Michelle Singletary: No, it's definitely impression. In fact, in my column I mention that the FTC just released some new data that showed about $10 billion, and that's with a B folks, of consumers losing money to fraud. That's a record high, $10 billion, and here’s the thing, that's just from people who reported it. There's many people who are too embarrassed and don't report the fraud. It's increasing because it's easier to get to people now either through email or telephone, social media, even on our own personal mobile phones.

At one point, you weren't getting calls on that, and now they text message you and they're so sophisticated. It looks so real. Even a friend of mine, her email was compromised and the scammer sent an email to her friends asking for money. In the address, it was her exact email address because we're told to hover over the email address. That's a clue whether or not it's legit. It was her legitimate email. They had somehow taken it over. It was only at that point that I said, "Okay, well I'm going to need to call and see what's going on," and she said, "Yes, my email was hacked." It's just so unfortunate that they can get to us all day, all long in all these different forms.

Brian Lehrer: James in Mountain Lakes has a story, I think. Oh, hi James. You're on--

James: Hi. I'm fine.

Brian Lehrer: Hi. You're on the air. Hi.

James: Hey, great. Love the show. I had two different episodes in particular. One, I'm a doctor and I got a call from individuals claiming to be from the DEA and saying that they needed my DEA number. I was a little suspicious. They had like heavy Haitian accents, but I thought like, "Oh, I shouldn't be so presumptuous that they're not potentially actual DEA agents." Then they were too suspicious and I just hung up on them. Then I called the actual DEA and I got some people on the phone who sounded like actual officers, and they told me it happens all the time.

Then I was caught off guard. I was in a foreign country. I was on a treadmill and I got a text, something about fraudulent activity on my credit card, and I fell for it. I put in a few things and then I realized, “Oh, I'm getting totally scammed.” Then just the things I gave them, I changed my passwords. Nothing ever happened, but you have to be careful, especially when you're distracted, I think.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for those two stories. Anything ring a bell there for you, Michelle, that would lead to general tip for how to recognize a scam?

Michelle Singletary: Yes. Think about it. He said two things that the immediacy of what you need to respond. Like, if you don't respond right now, your account is going to be taken over or your account is going to be shut down, and then people are distracted, they're going about their day. They know how to catch you. They can hear it. I will tell people-- and this is why I wrote the column, we are nobody-- Everyone could be conned because these people are so clever.

Here's the biggest tip I can give you. If they want you to rush, scam. In fact, you have more protections if you don't act than if you do, because a lot of people won't get their money back because they don't know that they're participating in the scam, but they're participating in the scam if you give them information. If they send a code to your phone and you give them that code number, the financial institutions will say, "Well, you gave them that information. You participated in your own victimization." In fact, not doing anything gives you more, because if they take money out or they do something and you did not have any contact, you didn't give them any information, the law is on your side more than if you act quickly.

Brian Lehrer: Really good tip. Lucille in Hazlet, you're on WNYC with Michelle Singletary. Hi Lucille.

Lucille: Hi. Love your show. I have a podcast called Not So Famous in New Jersey where I interview people from New Jersey that are in the art. I went to the Facebook page of a pretty famous comedian who used to live in Middletown and said, "I'd really love to interview you." I got a message back from her saying, "Oh, that's great. I'd love to. I'm going to put you in touch with my bookings manager."

Well, long story short, I'm out about $150, which isn't bad, but it was like I had to pay for her security. It was like it went over a couple of days back and forth and finally I was like, “I'm going to--” This is over the weekend. Monday, I called her agent's office and they got back to me. They said, "No, she doesn't have a Facebook page. It's not her." I don't know how this person managed to do that.

The same thing happened with me with Air Canada. I had a problem with Air Canada. I put a message on their page, and then I got messages back going, "Oh, I'm the customer service person. Let me--” Then all of a sudden it was like, "Well, put this app on your phone and put it in Kenyan--" I'm like, "Bye, no," just hung up on them.

Brian Lehrer: Lucille, thank you. Again, Michelle, anything instructive there, or maybe in particular, what to say or do when you've decided that you are being scammed?

Michelle Singletary: A couple of things struck out to me. One thing, when we answer these scam calls, and in her case, give them money, you actually get on another list. These scammers share lists of people who have fallen for the scams, and then you can be scammed again. That's probably how this also happened with her. The moment you just scam, even though she mentioned it was just $150, I hope Lucille filed a complaint, particularly with the FTC. Where you send it is freportfraud.ftc.gov. If you can't remember all that you're driving or you're busy working, just go to the ftc.gov website and you'll see links for their fraud page.

If you are scammed, please, please report it because it helps them, not necessarily on your case, but it helps them build a case. They can also spot trends. If you get a call or text message, and you suspect it's a scam, don't talk to the person, don't because sometimes people want to engage them and trick them and make them frustrated. Just end conversation. Hang up the phone. Don't engage the scammers and if you're scammed, please, please report it.

Brian Lehrer: I think that's a question that a lot of people have about reporting, because I think a lot of people, even when they decide that a call or an email or whatever they get is a scam, they just ignore it because they think there's no point in reporting it because the person, maybe they're overseas, whatever, and how could they be traced anyway, but you're saying they can?

Michelle Singletary: In some cases, they can. Like on your text message, you might get someone who’ll say, "Hey, Mary, where have you been?" You're not Mary and you think oh, well, you're going to respond and say, “I'm not Mary. You got the wrong number." Now they have confirmed that that's a real number. When it comes up, oftentimes there's a little notice at the end of the text that says, report this. I forget the exact words, but it'll say something like report it. Definitely click that. Report it, then delete it.

If you go to the fcc.gov website, there's a whole list of who you should report the scam to if you sent a wire transfer, if you sent a gift card, if you sent money through the mail. What often happens is the scammers sometimes leave a trail that the officials can follow, not all the time, but sometimes. If it's a scam that is happening a lot, they can then alert the public. Every time you get an email that you think is a scam, forward it to the email provider so that they can build a case to see where it's coming from, and that will help the next person not be victimized.

Brian Lehrer: Francine in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Francine.

Francine: Hi, how are you? I have a trick. When my mother in law was alive, she was an elderly New Yorker and she would get these scam calls all the time. What we told her to say was, "Thanks so much for calling. Please call my daughter in law, who's a lawyer." Inevitably, they would all hang up every single time.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much. Do you like that response, Michelle?

Michelle Singletary: Well, I understand why they did it, but here's the thing, and technology has evolved. You don't want to say anything because now they have systems where they can capture the victim’s voice, use that to maybe enter a bank because now like my bank has a system where my voice is my password. If they capture words, they can piece it together to call your bank and it is your voice. I understand why they told their mother in law to do it, but don't do that. Do not say anything. Just hang up because you don't want them to capture your voice that can then be used.

In some cases there's these scams where they claim a relative has been kidnapped or in jail and if they've captured your voice, they can play it and make it sound like that is little Bobby or Suzie or whomever, and you're like, "That is her voice." You don't want to say yes or no or anything. Just hang up immediately.

Brian Lehrer: How about this, my mom has done, credit to my mom for trying to play the scammers. When they sometimes call up with the grandma scam, you know, "Grandma, I'm in trouble, I need your help." She's done things like, "Oh, Scott, is that you?" when she doesn't have a grandchild named Scott, and then they get caught and they go away.

Michelle Singletary: Again, you don't want to play with these folks. Some of them will hang up and never bothered you again. Some of them are crime syndicates, and if they get too mad with you, they can actually-- and this has happened in some cases with scam victims, they will call the police and say someone is shooting at your house or they heard gunshots and then the SWAT team shows up at your house. That's how they get back at the people who mess with them. Don't mess with the criminals. Just hang up. Don't play along. Don't give them any more information. Again, for one thing, you don't want them to capture your voice and these are criminals, folks, and you don't know how lethal they are, so just hang up.

Brian Lehrer: We're out of time, except for you to say if there's any place besides reading your column, because you cover this well, that people can go to as sort of a website, clearing house or something like that to see what scams are prevalent right now.

Michelle Singletary: Definitely the ftc.gov. I know I've mentioned it several times, but they have so much great information. The other thing is they will alert you to the newest scams. They actually have a blog post that talks about what's happening now. I read it all the time and you should bookmark it and just read it and pass it on to your friends. Two things, everybody, please, send the link to this show to everybody that you know and just don't trust anybody. If I called you, don't trust me. If Brian calls you, don't trust him. Always go to the source and don't act right away. That is your actually best protection. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but if someone takes money out of your account and you never initiated any contact or anything, you're going to get your money back.

Tell everybody, spread this word because this is an epidemic. You probably know somebody who knows somebody who was scammed and I'm very concerned, particularly for people as they get later in life. Actually, the scammers are going after young people and old people, so it's not an old people thing, but we need to help each other by spreading the word that these cons are out there and just don't-- if you don't remember anything I tell you to do, just don't believe anybody. Just say, “I don't know. I don't trust you. I'm going to hang up and find the number independently.”

Brian Lehrer: Michelle Singletary, personal finance columnist for The Washington Post where you can find her recent story, Put Your Smugness Away. You Are Not Too Clever To Be Conned. Michelle, was that really you? No, I know it was you. Thank you so much.

Michelle Singletary: Oh, that's funny. I got it now. [laughs] It is truly me, but don't believe it.

Brian Lehrer: I don't believe it.

Michelle Singletary: Go to the website and make sure that is my account.

Brian Lehrer: That may or may not have been Michelle Singletary with great advice. Thanks, Michelle. Brian Lehrer on WNYC, more to come.

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