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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer show on WNYC. Good morning everyone. If you ride the trains or buses heads up, there's big mass transit news on at least two fronts this morning. One is the bipartisan infrastructure bill that Democrats and Republicans have actually agreed to move forward on in the United States Senate. Mass transit spending was one of the last big sticking points, but the white house now says the emerging deal will include the largest federal investment in public transit ever, both for local systems and for Amtrak.

Locally, we have the news that Sarah Feinberg, the Interim President of New York City Transit, the city's bus and subway system is leaving, her last day is tomorrow. The leadership of the whole MTA is in flux now. The MTA includes the city's buses and subways, plus the Metro north and long island railroad commuter lines and the bridges and tunnels within the city. Sarah Feinberg joins us now. Thanks for coming on again and I guess it's now an exit interview. Welcome back to WNYC.

Sarah Feinberg: Thanks. It's good to be with you. Always good to be on with you.

Brian Lehrer: You confirm the story, right? Tomorrow's your last day?

Sarah Feinberg: Tomorrow's my last day. I had previously announced this. It's getting some new looks and some new news this morning because I gave an interview to the New York post, but tomorrow's my last day as president of New York City transit.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Cuomo, as I understand it had wanted to split the MTA leadership into two separate jobs with you taking one of them. If I understand correctly, you were willing to stay on in one of those roles, but not in this role or as head of the whole MTA after that plan to split the leadership failed. If I do have that right, why the one but not the others?

Sarah Feinberg: I know it gets complicated fast. That's right. The Governor sent a bill to Albany suggesting that we split the top role. Right now, the MTA is led by one person. Who's both the CEO and the chair of the board. The legislation suggests that we split the role into two, one being the CEO and one being the chair of the board. I've actually long advocated for this over the last, oh, I don't know, two or three years. 

Look, the MTA is a multi-billion dollar agency, 72,000 employees. On its best day we need as many hands on the wheel as we can good, smart, experienced folks leading the organization. The reality is, this is not its best day. Ridership has fallen off since the pandemic. We have a huge capital program ahead of us, major projects, congestion pricing, all of that stuff on the horizon. The theory is, we need more strong leaders running the agency.

We'll see if the Senate acts, we're waiting for them to act. I was willing and I'm still willing to step in and be the chair of the board and it would be an honor to do so and if the Senate acts, I'm happy to step into that role.

Brian Lehrer: Talk about a tough time to take a job. You were appointed Interim President of New York City Transit after the very popular Andy Byford left that job, partly because he felt governor Cuomo was making the job intolerable. He used that word and, you came on in March of last year and the pandemic started here in March of last year. You had to run the system and deal with large numbers of COVID deaths in your own workforce. 16 months later, Sarah Feinberg, how are you?

Sarah Feinberg: 17 months, but who's counting? Look, running New York City transit is a massive challenge, largest transit agency in north America, millions of customers, 472 stations. It's a huge system. It's a huge challenge on any day. It's also what I've long described as the best job in transportation in America. It is so challenging, so exciting, but you impact the lives of so many New Yorkers every single day in a way that I just love.

Getting people home, getting people to work, getting people to school, just the basics of helping people live in a city. It's a wonderful job. Running New York City transit during COVID was an unbelievable challenge. Obviously you hit on the just massive impact that COVID had on our workforce. Thousands of our colleagues were sick or ill, were out on quarantine and more than 150 New York City transit men and women passed away.

It was by far the hardest thing to deal with as president of New York City transit. My hardest day paled in comparison to what the men and women of New York City transit were going through. Both the folks who were sick and who passed away and their families obviously, but also just the men and women who showed up every single day. As I say, carried the city on their back for the last 16 months, operating buses, operating trains, working in stations, cleaning, working in dispatch, doing it all. It's been the honor of a career.

Brian Lehrer: Nicely said about the workforce. Andy Byford felt marginalized by governor Cuomo. He was being excluded from decisions affecting New York City transit, even though he was president of New York City transit. Has that been a problem at all for you?

Sarah Feinberg: I have never felt that way. I've made my own decisions. I have executed on my decisions. I have always been involved. I felt like the governor has been a great partner to me. Others have felt differently. Obviously, I would never try to speak for Andy but I have never felt that way. I feel like we've had a great partnership and I've enjoyed working with him. We share a vision for what the system can be.

I've long said that I think that New York City transit can be the shining star of transit for certainly for the country and really for all of the world. We've got a ways to go before we get there, but he shares that vision and I've appreciated both his partnership, but also the fact that he has worked with me, deferred to me and promoted me.

Brian Lehrer: Are there any decisions you've made as president that Governor Cuomo may not have been crazy about?

Sarah Feinberg: I am sure there has been decisions I have made as New York City transit president that he was not crazy about, but to his credit, I have never heard about them.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some phone calls for Sarah Feinberg. She departs tomorrow as Interim President of New York City Transit. These questions can be about the state of the buses and the subways not just about sort of the leadership of the MTA and those chess pieces, which are in flux moving about the leadership chess board right now.

646-435 7280, 646-435 7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. One issue I keep seeing reported about for the buses and subways right now is service delays because of staffing shortages. Can you give us an update on how you see the staffing situation right now and its effect on service at this time?

Sarah Feinberg: Yes. During the height of the pandemic and really beyond the height of the pandemic, the MTA went into a hiring freeze, which means obviously people move on, they retire, they move on to other jobs, but the hiring freeze means that we do not rehire into positions. We've been through hiring freezes in the past. I think actually for most of my time on the board and as president we've been in a hiring freeze, but what was different about the one during the pandemic was that the hiring freeze was extended to our operational titles. Train operators, bus operators, conductors, those positions that previously even during a hiring freeze, we would continue to hire and so that's had a huge impact.

Look, the financial crisis that we went through was dire. I don't think anything in MTAs past has compared to it. We had to take significant steps to address it. It's had a significant impact on our operations. Now, to be clear, we lifted that hiring freeze in February, we've been hiring into those operational titles ever since. With the lifting of some of the COVID restrictions over the last couple of months. We've been able to have more flexibility in hiring. Obviously more flexibility in training, larger class sizes, obviously with the Delta variant and COVID making a bit of a comeback, we'll see what happens.

Anyone who leads a transit agency will tell you that the worst thing that can happen to that agency apart from a fatal incident or a catastrophic incident is going into a hiring freeze, because it's just very hard to dig out of.

Now, because we've got so many train operators, bus operators, conductors, folks who can work an overtime shift, who can continue to be on call and move those buses and trains, the impacts have been less than they could have been. We also have really strategic experienced people in our rail operations control center who can do what we call a flex the headways, so that when we are experiencing a crew shortage on a particular line, they can shift the trains around a little bit and move headways around so that people are less impacted. There's no question that it's had an impact.

One of the things that I hope to work on if the Senate takes up my nomination as

chair and that I know Janno Lieber hopes to work on, if he becomes CEO is to address those shortages immediately. We want to hire as quickly as we possibly can to bring workers back and to bring on more workers so that we can run as much service as possible.

Brian Lehrer: If you're just joining us, Sarah Feinberg is our guest on her second to last day as Interim President of New York City Transit. Though, as you hear, she may be taking another leadership job soon within the MTA.

Our first two listener questions on Twitter are both about masks. One person asks, "The MTA is doing a terrible job enforcing much less conveying mandatory mask rule. There needs to be more signage in every single car and in every entrance into the subways." The other one says, "Since she's leaving, is there anything blunt Ms. Feinberg would care to say to the NYPD and the mayor about how so many cops refuse to wear masks properly or at all, while on the subways and buses?" Will you take those two questions?

Sarah Feinberg: Yes, I'm happy to. First of all, I think that we're doing a really good job of getting the message out that masks are still required in the transit system. Obviously, your listener feels like we need to do more in terms of signage and messaging. I feel like we're doing a lot, but we can always do more. I'll take that back to the team and have them take another look at, are there more places we can put up signs? Are there more ways to message customers?

Masks are absolutely required in the system, that's a federal mandate, it also just makes sense. The transit system is not a system that a lot of people use by choice, right? A lot of people have to use the transit system to get to work, to get to school, to get to doctor's appointments. We inevitably have in the transit system, a vulnerable population. Folks who have been unable to get vaccinated for some reason. Folks who have an underlying condition, maybe they're receiving medical care. You've got to make sure that you're protecting those folks who are particularly vulnerable. Even, a couple of weeks ago, sorry?

Brian Lehrer: Including kids.

Sarah Feinberg: Absolutely, yes. The under 12 population that hasn't had access to a vaccine yet, you've got to protect those folks. Even a couple of weeks ago, when mandates were being lifted, we kept ours in place, both because of federal regulations and also because it just makes sense in the transit system.

In terms of folks not wearing masks particularly police officers, everyone should be wearing a mask. I see the tweets. I see the consternation about the police not wearing masks, certainly for the MTA police who obviously work for the MTA. We are vigilant about reminding folks, "You must wear a mask when you're in the system, it's the right thing to do." It's our policy internally and everyone should be doing it. I understand the weather it's hot, it's uncomfortable, but at this point, it's just the right thing to do. Particularly as the variant comes back.

Brian Lehrer: The city and the state are both imposing vaccination or testing

mandates for their workers. The MTA technically is neither a city agency nor a state agency. Do these mandates for vaccination or testing apply to bus and subway workers?

Sarah Feinberg: My understanding is they don't technically apply because the MTA board would have to take action to mandate vaccinations or mandatory testing. Certainly, personally, I feel like it's an important mandate. We are a workforce that is obviously in touch with the public, communicates with the public. I feel like it's important for us to be vaccinated. Beyond that, we have paid such a heavy price for COVID.

It's still hard for me to talk about, but the number of spouses and children that I have talked to on the phone who lost a member of their family, who worked at New York City Transit. I think if you could imagine some of those conversations, you would understand why I am very much in favor of vaccination. I would love to see every member of our workforce who's able to get a vaccine.

Brian Lehrer: That's still just encouraging it. What's on the docket for people listening to this who think, "Wait, I want bus and subway workers to have this mandate along with all the other public sector workers." Is there a plan? Is the MTA board going to meet and vote on this?

Sarah Feinberg: Well, so it'll be up to the board. I know that there are discussions about it and I'll leave it to the board to act on it. Certainly, just personally I would be in favor of it.

Brian Lehrer: Josephine in Queens, you're on WNYC with Interim Bus and Subway, New York City Transit System, President, Sarah Feinberg. I almost got her title right. Josephine, you're on WNYC, hello?

Josephine: Hello, good morning. I appreciate this is your last day, but maybe you can pass this information on. It was horrible on Monday, it was hot. I was looking for the R-train. I got on the R-train and couldn't understand, why not post it long, where they tell you the next stop. All it kept saying was to listen to the announcement. You couldn't understand the announcement. I wound up on 72nd street, which is the Second Avenue line, came back to 63rd, found out the S-train was not going to Queens. No one knew what was going on and to boot.

When I got the token booth, as you can tell by my age, I say [unintelligible 00:15:27] boot. She was telling me to take the number seven train that doesn't go to Woodhaven Boulevard. Then she told me to take the LIRR, that they were honoring our Metro card. Unless they were planning to have the LIRR stop at Woodhaven Boulevard on the [unintelligible 00:15:42] and I was supposed to jump off. I don't know what else. It was ridiculous. Fortunately, I'm pretty good at the subway system. I knew I could get off and take a bus or an express bus, but imagine for someone who is not aware like I am?

Brian Lehrer: Josephine, thank you. Maybe that operator thought you said Woodside where those trains do go. Sarah Feinberg, there was a big mess on

Monday, there've been a lot of days like that recently because of staff shortages or whatever. What would you say to Josephine about the particular and more generally?

Sarah Feinberg: In an ideal world, and certainly my wish would be that Josephine never has an experience like that and that no customer ever has an experience like that. Those experiences are frustrating. Josephine had a place to go where she needed to be, and she was both delayed and having trouble figuring out the best way to get there.

I will say that there is no workforce in the world that I've ever experienced that cares more about delivering customers safely and efficiently to where they're trying to go. We're not always perfect, and we've got a whole host of things that are working against us on any given day. Sometimes it's the system malfunction, sometimes it's the fact that our infrastructure is more than 100 years old. Sometimes it's climate change and flash flooding from several inches of rain in a couple of hours. There are all kinds of things that our workforce is contending with.

Bottom line is we'd all like for Josephine and all of our fellow riders to get where they're going, quickly and efficiently. Our apologies that she didn't have a good experience on Monday.

Brian Lehrer: Well, is that a staff shortage issue? I know we talked about this a little bit already, but like in some parts of the private sector, people are leaving or not returning to the kinds of work they had before in equal numbers. Because of the COVID, there are demands and risks and stress, restaurant workers, retail, nurses, other healthcare workers to different degrees. How true is that for bus and subway workers? How much is that affecting service?

Sarah Feinberg: I think there's all kinds of reasons for it. Certainly, I think given the last year and a half that we, not just we as New York City Transit have had, but we as a country have had dealing with COVID. I think all kinds of different pieces of all workforces are thinking about how they want to spend their time, what they want to do. Do they want to work at home? Do they want to be with their families? Do they want to be in a line of work that's flexible.

I think certainly we're dealing with that, but at the same time, I think we are dealing with a whole host of other challenges that I just went through in response to Josephine. The good news is that we are the biggest transit system in North America. We run tremendous amounts of service. I have lived in other cities. I lived in Washington DC for many years where the headways were frequently, eight minutes during rush hour, 12 minutes in the middle of the day. 20 minutes, 30 minutes in the middle of the day and the weekend.

That's not to say people should just be happy with the service that they're getting. It's just to say, the good news is we run tremendous amounts of service. Even when we have a really tough day and we have crew shortages, maybe we have a signal problem. Maybe we have a maintenance issue, maybe something else has gone wrong. We run so much service that they're generally options for people, which is

good.

On this crew shortage issue specifically, we pulled out over the last couple of weeks, we've pulled out specific causes for delays to trains. Was it a crew shortage issue? Was it a CVTC issue? Was it a different signal issue? Was it the fact that we had a maintenance issue? What was the exact problem? What we learned from that is that most riders are probably experiencing about one minute to one minute, 15 seconds of delays due to crew shortages. That is not to say it's not frustrating. It's certainly is.

When you need to be somewhere, you need to be somewhere. It doesn't help that it's 95 degrees and you're wearing a mask and, it's becoming increasingly crowded, but, I do think that we're running so much service. We're actually in a better place than we were if you can believe it in 2019, certainly in 2017, 2018, but even 2019.

Brian Lehrer: You're saying just an average of one minute delay is as a result of staff shortages right now?

Sarah Feinberg: Yes, that's right. Now, that doesn't mean you're not going to have a tough day if you run into a staff shortage, some other issue, a signal issue and there's all kinds of things out there that happen beyond our control, like weather and other issues like police issues, things like that. It doesn't mean you're not going to run into tough commutes here and there but when we ran the numbers, it's about a minute to a minute and 15 seconds related to crew shortages,

Brian Lehrer: The answers you just gave don't seem to comport with the experiences that a lot of people say they're having, and that have been in the press, which is that there are a lot of delays right now and it's different than before the pandemic, worse.

Sarah Feinberg: Well, that's why I'm trying to say and preface it all with, I understand that there are days when it feels particularly bad and when you're standing on a platform, it doesn't help waiting on a train, it doesn't help for me to say, "Oh, but the crew shortage is only impacting your commute by one minute or two minutes." I totally understand that. The reality is, when you look back, we are actually running pretty good service compared to 2020 and great service compared to 2017, '18, and '19.

Again, I understand that there are times when you're standing on a platform when it's frustrating. The job of the president of New York City transit is to hear those concerns and do everything I can to make sure that every rush hour, every commute goes as seamlessly as possible. That's always going to be our responsibility and something we own and something we're always trying to improve and get better at.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, I guess it's that one minute doesn't get equally distributed. If a train is canceled due to a crew shortage, it's more than a minute delay. That line will run trains with greater spacing at that time. When that happens, it doesn't feel like a minute because it's not a minute in those cases. The other lines may not have crew shortages that day, so they're not experiencing it at all. The one minute average is one thing, the experience for riders when there are crew shortages is different. That's  

fair. Right?

Sarah Feinberg: When I was talking about flexing the headways, one of the things we try to do is we've got really experienced people in our rail control center who will see that we've got a crew shortage on one particular line and let's say that the headways during rush hour on that line are supposed to be four minutes. If we've got a crew shortage rather than miss a trip and then have that headway be eight minutes they will try to flex the headways so the next couple of headways are five minutes or six minutes as opposed to doubling that headway for one group.

Obviously, we're juggling wanting to make sure that we keep crowding on platforms to a minimum and run as much service as possible.

Brian Lehrer: Paul in Washington Heights has a perennial bus rider's question I think. Paul, you're on WNYC with Sarah Feinberg, hi.

Paul: Oh, good morning, Brian. Hello, Ms. Feinberg. Thank you for shouldering this work. I'd like to ask about what I call the [unintelligible 00:23:23] parade. That is to say when the buses bunch up because of traffic or other causes and you're waiting for a long, long time for a bus, and then three or four pass in quick succession. Why can't the supervisors space out those buses in real-time?

Sarah Feinberg: Great question. Thank you for the question. I'm glad to talk about buses for a minute, because it's been a huge focus of ours for the last 18 months, and certainly before as well. To that specific issue, we actually do have supervisors and dispatchers and what we call road ops out there on the streets, on corners, doing exactly what the caller just mentioned. Trying to prevent that bunching up. We're not always perfect, traffic doesn't always cooperate but that's exactly what we're out there doing because obviously, it doesn't help folks, if there's a 15-minute wait, and then you get three buses in a row. We're trying to do that throughout the city.

The other thing to know is that the best thing we can do for bus service in the city is to keep people out of bus lanes. To keep parked cars out of the bus lane. If bus lanes are only for buses, this city moves really well. It's been a big focus of ours for the last 18 months. In fact, the first thing I did as interim president before COVID took over everything was, we'd implemented what we call the ABLE system which is a cameras where we've got cameras on the front of buses and as they proceed through the bus lane, they're taking photos of the license plates of cars that are blocking the bus lane.

UPS vehicles, FedEx vehicles, the cable company, sometimes the police officer, sometimes the delivery truck, the Amazon folks, or even just folks who are trying to run into a coffee shop or a store to do a quick errand. The camera takes a photo of that license plate, and then the person gets ticketed. The thought is that once you get one or two of those tickets, you learn your lesson, and you stay out of the bus lane.

One of the first things I did when I became interim president was we sent a letter to

the top 10 companies that were our biggest offenders of sitting in the bus lane blocking traffic. We sent them a letter and said, "Look, you've gotten dozens and dozens or hundreds of these tickets. What are you doing? You've got to get out of the bus lane. You're screwing up people who are trying to get places in our city."

"It's also not safe, we shouldn't be asking our bus operators to swing out into traffic. We shouldn't be asking our customers, our riders, the elderly population, our disabled community to try to get on a bus that's swung out into a lane of traffic. This has got to stop." To their credit, a bunch of the companies wrote back and said, "Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We will address this immediately."

Now, a couple of weeks later, COVID took over and we've certainly continued the program, and Janno and I have plans to expand the program and put even more cameras on buses so that we can keep those bus lanes clear. I'd also like to do busways as well, more and more of those busways. I always say that the subway is my first true love but buses are absolutely the future of how we're going to move this city in the future and we've got to get our bus lanes clear in order to be able to do it.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, good points about buses and bus lanes. We've just got a few minutes left. Let me try to run through a few things real quick. One, have you looked at the senate's bipartisan infrastructure bill closely enough yet? I know this is brand new to have anything yet on the implications for New York City's buses and subways?

Sarah Feinberg: Well, we have and we're cautiously optimistic. It could obviously mean really good things for a bunch of our big projects. Penn Station reconstruction, and access. New Bronx stations for Metro-North, our state of good repair projects. If that bill moves and can pass both chambers and get signed by the president, that's going to be great news for New York. Huge thanks to the entire New York congressional delegation, particularly the Senator Schumer, for the work that they've done to get just MTA specifically the resources that we need, but also really significant resources for all of New York.

Brian Lehrer: Another COVID question also with the very transmissible Delta variant, at the same time, the governor is pushing for businesses to bring people back to work in person, to the extent that that means more crowded trains, without much distancing possible within them, even if people are wearing masks. How safe Can you make the subway cars now? Are there good numbers from recent months on COVID transmission?

Sarah Feinberg: Yes, we've said from the beginning of COVID, it is always going to be difficult to get social distancing on a New York City subway train, and on a New York City transit bus. We are a big city, a lot of people use transit. Even at the heights of COVID when ridership was 5% and 6% and 7%, there would be crowded trains and crowded buses because that's just the way people move in New York.

The most important thing is to be vigilant about your mask. Everything that I've seen and that others are seeing about the Delta variant and the COVID resurgence is that  

vaccines still work, and masks still work. That's the best thing that you can do to protect yourself and your loved ones and that's why we're going to continue to be really vigilant about it.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing just about you as you leave this job and go on to your next thing. From what I've read about you, your mother was a judge and your father is a state legislator from your hometown of Charleston, West Virginia, of all places, that seem remote to most New Yorkers. How did you grow up in Charleston, West Virginia, and wind up as head of the New York City Bus and Subway System?

Sarah Feinberg: Totally predictable, right? [chuckles] My mother was an assistant US attorney and then a federal judge and my father was a state legislator when I was a little girl and has not been in the legislature since the 1980s but remained a public servant and served on the Public Service Commission and actually most recently spent many years running a soup kitchen as his second act. It's a family of of public servants.

My family moved to Charleston, West Virginia before I was born. My dad got a job there. I will tell you, it was the most beautiful place to grow up. It is lovely. The mountains are absolutely beautiful. The people are so kind. It was just a joy. I miss West Virginia every day.

Brian Lehrer: How's the subway system in Charleston?

Sarah Feinberg: [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: I'm just kidding.

Sarah Feinberg: You know what? There's a good bus system, and I took the city bus to school a lot.

Brian Lehrer: Then one more question about how you then went on to your professional career, and how it relates to what you're concluding today and tomorrow? I see your background was first in communications. You've been Communication Director for the House Democratic Caucus, for example, Crisis Communications Manager for Facebook at one time and other things, and then you were Chief of Staff for the Transportation Secretary under President Obama and then head of the Federal Railroad Administration, the agency had yourself.

I'm just curious with that combination of experiences. What would you say and as you take calls from listeners and hear their concerns and hear their frustrations, what would you say are the biggest specific communications or public relations challenges for people running mass transit agencies?

Sarah Feinberg: I think most people who are running mass transit agencies, and I know this from close relationships with my colleagues across the country, is that we really don't play politics. Even though I have a background in government and politics, I have not been in a partisan position since, I think, almost 20 years, since my mid-20s. I've served in government, I've served for Democrats, I've served in the White House, I was appointed by President Obama to be the rail regulator for the

United States confirmed by a Republican Senate.

I think what we would all agree on is that it's not a political job. It is a policy job. It is a job where you are serving the public, but you are not serving the public in a political way. The most important thing, as the President of any transit agency will tell you, is to be really transparent and clear with your customers and with the community you're serving. I think, looking back, you'll see that I've done that. I don't pretend that everything is fine on the service side. I say, "We have crew shortages, and this is why, and this is what we're doing to address it."

I don't pretend that, "You're going to be able to get social distance on a New York City Subway or rail car." I say, "That's going to be impossible. That's why you have to wear a mask." I don't say, "We don't have a safety and security issue in the subway system when felonies are up 300%." We say, "This is what we're seeing, and this is how we're going to address it." We've got to work together to get ourselves into a better place. That's, I think, in my experience, the most important thing that you can do to serve the community that you're working in.

Brian Lehrer: Sarah Feinberg, thank you for your service these past 17 months as Interim President of New York City Transit. We look forward to having you back in your next role.

Sarah Feinberg: Thanks for having me. Good to talk to you.

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