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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Yesterday Pope Francis, as many of you have probably heard, gave his approval to a declaration allowing Catholic priest to bless same-sex couples while moving beyond the previous statements saying that God does not and cannot bless sin, it still fall short of fully endorsing marriage for gay couples. Nevertheless, my next guest, Father James Martin, calls this a major step forward. Father Martin is a Jesuit Priest, an editor of Outreach, an LGBTQ Catholic resource. He is a consultor, as they call it, to the Vatican's Dicastery for Communication and author of books including Come Forth, which is out this year, and Learning to Pray. Father Martin, always good to have you on the show. Welcome back to WNYC.

Father James Martin: Thank you. Great to be back.

Brian Lehrer: Tell me why this is good news for priests and their parishioners.

Father James Martin: It's good news because it enables us to bless same-sex couples in a way that we were unable to do before. I just blessed my first one this morning actually. It really turns around a statement that had come out two years ago. As you quoted, "God does not and cannot bless sin." That really caused a lot of angst, I would say, in the LGBTQ community which includes their families and friends, so among many Catholics. I think it's a great step forward, a really pastoral response to a need in the church.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we want to hear from Catholic listeners. Lapsed or active, gay or straight, but especially if you are a gay Catholic. Does this give you hope in that the church is moving toward perhaps allowing blessings for marriage equality? Would this be something you would seek if you're a part of a same-sex marriage? Did you find a way to include your faith in your wedding? Tell us your thoughts as the Christmas holidays approach when more families attend services. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. I know a lot of people are having a first reaction of, "This is really pretty thin gruel, it doesn't actually go all that far to doing what the church should do to be moral in a lot of people's eyes, but it is something."

How much of a thing is it to you especially if you are a gay Catholic or you just grew up Catholic whether or not you're practicing now, but pay attention to what the church does especially if you are gay. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Father Martin, why should people be happy about this if it's still keeps the church doctrine of same-sex marriage being against God's will in place?

Father James Martin: That's a good question because it's a step forward and I think we have to remember, most of our callers are going to be in the New York area, but we have to remember how this is being read, and how this will be read in places like Sub-Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe, Latin America. What might seem tepid to us is really threatening to those cultures. I spent a month at the Synod in Rome, and there was a lot of pushback even to using the term LGBTQ. Even the idea that LGBTQ people would be welcomed in the church.

We have to remember that when the pope and the Vatican comes out with statements like this, they are looking also at how it's going to be received or not received in places like Ghana, or Nigeria, or Poland. I think it's pretty bold when you consider the universality of the church.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Eileen in White Plains. You're on WNYC. Hi, Eileen.

Eileen: Hello, thank you so much for having me on. I am a 52-year-old lesbian who didn't know that this would happen in my lifetime. I'm very grateful for Pope Francis and all that he's done and for what Father Martin has done for our community. While I think this is a blessing and is a big step forward, I'm hoping that there will also be sacramental marriage sometime in the future.

Brian Lehrer: Eileen, thank you very much. Father Martin, I understand that a lot of what the pope says is now okay actually happens already in real life. That there are a lot of more liberal Catholic Priests who do attend and give blessings at the weddings. Even the weddings of same-sex couples who they know or who are members of their church and things like that. To some people, this is more recognition of reality. At least the reality of what's going on in some more liberal Catholic circles than it is something new. How would you describe it in that respect?

Father James Martin: I don't know if I would agree with that. I would say that it's pretty rare. Maybe in New York, maybe in some big cities, but for priests to do a public blessing in any way, it's still liable or was liable to get them into trouble. I know in Germany, for example, it's more common, but around the world and really even in the United States, it's not common. I've not done it until, I said, this morning because I knew it would get me into trouble and I want to color within the lines. I actually don't think it's that common. I think what you're going to see now is many more requests from people like your last caller for their local priest to come to their house, or do something in the backyard, or do something informal.

Again, it's a way of Pope Francis really reaching out to this community in one way, maybe not as fully as some would like, and recognizing them and saying we want God to be with you. Again, you think about this in Ghana where the bishops have sided with laws that criminalize homosexuality to just see what a big step this is worldwide.

Brian Lehrer: Nick in Passaic I think wants the comment on exactly this aspect we were just discussing. Nick, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Nick: Hi, Brian. What I want to say is that I belong to a progressive Catholic Community called Dignity in New York City and that there are progressive groups of Catholics that have been doing blessings and things that would only be done in the future that weren't possible. We have good relationships with progressive priests, and nuns, and bishops. These things have been going on, but very discreetly amongst Catholic groups. Also, I want to say that I'm very, very happy that Pope Francis has done this and I think that is the first step. I think that he's trying to achieve unity between very progressive Catholics and very conservative people from different backgrounds and different countries. I think it's a step in the right direction.

Brian Lehrer: Nick, thank you very, very much. Going to go right to our next caller. Rosemary on Staten Island, you're on WNYC. Hello, Rosemary.

Rosemary: Hi, there. I just want to say when I heard the news about the pope I said, "Thanks, but no thanks." I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. My partner and I go to mass all the time and yes, in our conservative community of Staten Island, one of the priests in our Parish even invited me to be a Eucharistic Minister. Yes, we were tacitly accepted by certain priests. My relationship is with God not with priests, and my thought about why the pope is doing this is if you go to mass-- I'm 68 years old and sometimes I think we're the youngest people in the church.

You don't see families coming to church that much anymore, and I believe that the pope is doing this just to try to get more people into the Catholic Church. I know Dignity, I like Dignity, I think it's too little too late, and I will continue to be a Catholic, to go to church. Oh, and I am in a marriage, but I never expected the church to accept it and I'm not going to look for the church to bless it at this point.

Brian Lehrer: Rosemary, thank you very much. Father Martin on her assertion that maybe the pope is doing this to get more people into church when younger generations are not adopting the practice, do you think it's a coincidence that this came in the week leading up to Christmas, which is one of the big opportunities for people to go to mass?

Father James Martin: Oh, I don't think so. I mean, this has been in the works for a while and it's more has to do with the timing of some replacements in the Vatican's doctrine office. I don't think he's doing it in order to draw people in because frankly, it could push as many people out who don't like this ruling. I think what he's doing, and I've spoken with him about LGBT issues a couple of times, he's trying to respond to the needs that he sees. More and more LGBTQ people are part of our, obviously, families, but also our parishes. More and more they're asking for a sense of welcome and a sense of inclusion in the church.

This is one of the topics we talked about in the Senate. He's talked about it a number of times. It's really trying to respond to the needs of the people in the pews. I think that's what's going on.

Brian Lehrer: You talk about it driving as many people out potentially as in. There's a big article in The New York Times today about the Methodist Church, which has been divided so down in the middle in global terms by LGBTQ issues that there's now an official schism. There's the United Methodist Church and now the other one is called the Global Methodist Church, which is the more conservative one. Do you think anything like that might happen within Catholicism?

Father James Martin: I really don't because we tend to try to iron out our differences. We might be angry at one another. At the Senate, there was a lot of heated conversation about LGBTQ things. I can say that one senate member refused even to sit next to me and left the hall. That's how contentious that issue is, but we tend not to split off because I think even people who see themselves as disagreeing with this, do see themselves as the true Catholics, so they wouldn't split off. I don't think we're anywhere near that, but it is.

You can see just in the last day, you're right, that there's been a lot of really strong reaction against this.

There's still a lot of misunderstanding about LGBTQ people in the church, and there's still, unfortunately, a lot of homophobia in the church. That's not everybody who disagrees with this, but we have to say that there is still a lot of homophobia in the church.

Brian Lehrer: Ted in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, Ted.

Ted: Hi, Brian and Father Martin. Thanks for putting me on. I so admire what the pope has done, but it's also brought up a lot of anger and frustration on my part. I was raised Catholic, I was studying to be a priest for quite a while, had a wonderful Jesuit education. For many years, I was going to Dignity masses in Manhattan. I finally reached at the point, myself and my husband did, we've been together for 38 years now and we're married recently. We've made the decision, why bother? Why keep fighting the fight? There are plenty of other very progressive Protestant denominations and we found one, the United Church of Christ actually, where we can fight bigger issues. We don't have to deal with this stuff.

I just say that because I still admire what the pope is doing, what Father Martin has been doing and doing now, but it just raises a lot of anger for me. I just wanted to say that.

Brian Lehrer: Father Martin.

Father James Martin: I hear you, and I appreciate your honesty with that. I know a lot of people in that situation. I think it's important to find a home where you feel welcomed, certainly. From my own point of view, I stay in the church, I'm a priest and a Jesuit. I've made vows and promises, but I see it as my family. I often say to people, it's like your country. Depending on our listeners, you might not like President Biden, you might not like President Trump, but you stay in the country and you're still an American. I see the church as that, flawed, certainly, sinful in some places, but worth sticking around for. It's just, I couldn't imagine leaving.

As I said, I know a lot of LGBTQ people who feel like the caller does, but I also know a lot of LGBTQ people who feel, "Look, I'm baptized and this is my church, too. It's just as much as my church as it is the local bishop or the pastor, so I'm staying."

Brian Lehrer: Speaking of being baptized, and Ted, thanks for your call, this decision by the pope comes on the heels of one last month that allowed transgender people to be baptized and to be godparents in the eyes of the church. That came from what's called the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith. You, I see, are a consulter for the Dicastery For Communication at the Vatican. How do these two things relate to each other? Where do you think this pope wants to get to by the time he passes away or leaves office? He's 87?

Father James Martin: That's a great question. He appointed a new prefect or head of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Victor Fernández, and he sent him a public letter, saying that he would like to see the Dicastery focus more on what he called the harmonious growth of theology and practice. You see, Cardinal Fernández very quickly, he's only been in, gosh, I think less than a year, sending out this declaration on transgender people or rather this response, which is pretty bold. Again, imagine how this is taken in other parts of the church. Now yesterday, this other documents, so it's pretty clear what Francis wants and it's very clear what Cardinal Fernández wants as well.

Brian Lehrer: Patrick in Ossining, you're on WNYC. Hi, Patrick.

Patrick: Hello, can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

Patrick: My question for Father Martin is, what's the difference between a blessing and approval? Isn't a blessing basically approving the relationship?

Father James Martin: The document makes that pretty clear that marriage in the Catholic Church is still reserved for a man and a woman. We bless all sorts of things. We bless people in difficult situations, a blessing is really just asking for God's help. It's calling God's help down on any situation. Look, in the past, I could bless the farm yard equipment, I could bless trucks, I could bless cars, I could bless statues, but I couldn't bless a same-sex couple and I think this really puts things right. If I can bless a car, I should be able to bless the same-sex couple.

Brian Lehrer: One more call. Mark in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Father James Martin. Hi, Mark.

Mark: Oh, good morning. Thank you for taking my call. Father Martin, my question is, what is to prevent a future papacy from reversing what Father Fernández and the pope are doing vis-à-vis the blessings of same-sex marriages? Could there be a 180 or turnaround on this [inaudible 00:16:50]?

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. That's a great question. Especially because, and we haven't touched on this yet there, from what I've read, is a mutiny or desire for mutiny against Pope Francis because of these particular things in some of the cardinals, I guess primarily, and other priests within the church. How serious do you see that revolt? I see that he decided to discipline a bishop in Tyler, Texas, who had spoken out against his more liberal stances. Could the next pope just decide, "No, that was all wrong."

Father James Martin: Theoretically, he could, the pope is the absolute ruler, if he wanted to reverse things. It's less likely when they open things up when they get permission because people get used to it in the church, so I think that's less likely. There is a lot of opposition. Pope Francis did remove Bishop Strickland from his diocese, who had been against Pope Francis very publicly and really vociferously for years, but frankly, he's been pretty patient with his detractors.

Brian Lehrer: All right, that is the last word on Pope Francis yesterday saying priests can bless same-sex relationships even though same-sex marriage is still against church doctrine. Father James Martin is a Jesuit priest and editor of Outreach, an LGBTQ Catholic resource. He's a consultant to the Vatican Dicastery for Communication and author of the books Come Forth and Learning to Pray. Father Martin, thank you so much.

Father James Martin: My pleasure. Thank you.