[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Today on the show among the conversations we'll have, will be one about manhood and masculinity in the modern world. Did you hear that Republican Senator, Josh Hawley of Missouri, has been making news for some things he's been saying about a liberal assault on manliness that needs to be reversed? In his opinion.

Hawley is one of the Senate's biggest Trump supporters and biggest cancel the election advocates, by the way, so maybe Donald Trump is his model of a real man. I'm not sure. But there was a very interesting op-ed in The New York Times this week by Journalist, Liza Featherstone, who dismisses Josh Hawley but also says, "Progressives need to do a better job of communicating positive male roles not just announce the Josh Hawleys of the world." Liza Featherstone will be on the show today and will take calls from any gender on that.

Interesting too, because we hear that Eric Adams, this morning, is naming his school's chancellor and it's David Banks who founded a network of public schools specifically for boys, The Eagle Academy for Young Men. Maybe Eric Adams thinks about this too, and maybe with a different approach from whatever Josh Hawley is promoting. We will get to all of that.

Here is an issue that's already rising in the 2022 Democratic primary for governor of New York. It's called Good Cause eviction. It was stabilized rents statewide in most departments that are not rent-stabilized today. Candidates Letitia James and Jumaane Williams have gone on record for it. Jumaane will join us in a minute.

Governor Hochul has yet to take a stand as she runs for election to a full term, and Mayor de Blasio, as he apparently prepares to run, expressed reservations about a Good Cause eviction standard when I asked him about it here last week.

[audio playback]

Mayor de Blasio: We got to be clear. I think it's really important to recognize there's bigger landlords. There are smaller landlords. There's a lot of community-based landlords who have only a few buildings or one building, small building who are, in many cases, working-class people themselves. We got to be careful about understanding the different types of realities.

We've got to make sure that the standards are legitimate. Meaning if someone really does deserve to stay in their apartment, they should but we got to also be clear that sometimes, there are tenants who don't do the right thing, and what is that balance? That's what I'm looking for as I evaluate the law.

[end of audio playback]

Brian Lehrer: Good Cause eviction. If you don't yet know the term, there it is. You will hear it again as the candidates for governor come down one way or another on this new progressive priority. Another issue for the candidates for governor and for incoming mayor, Eric Adams, will, of course, be crime.

De Blasio gave his final press briefing on crime as mayor yesterday, murders are up about 1% this year compared to last year, so not much change, which is relatively good news as cities like Philadelphia, Chicago, Portland, Oregon, Austin, Texas, and Rochester Upstate also record murder rates this year. Philadelphia had more murders than New York City, despite having only one-sixth the population of New York City.

Mayor de Blasio yesterday called New York, still the safest city in America but we should say that the total jump in murders, since the pandemic started, is 45% at more than 430 murders this year. Remember, as other cities set record, New York is nowhere near its record of more than 2,000 murders in one year, that happened actually many years in the 1970s, '80s, and '90s. But still Police Commissioner Shea cited recidivism as an ongoing major issue.

He said, "30% of the arrests right now for shootings are among people with other open felony cases." Bail reform is another issue on which the gubernatorial candidates are beginning to take sides. Also from that crime report, hate crimes as a category, almost doubled this year over last, up 93%. There were 479 of them or more than one hate crime per day reported in New York City this year.

Another piece of news being rolled out this morning. I mentioned it already. Mayor Eric Adams is introducing his pick for Schools Chancellor, and it is reportedly David Banks, founder of The Eagle Academy for Young Men, a network of all-boys public schools, Banks and Adams are said to have been close for many years. One question I'll be asking, does he know how to educate girls?

There's a lot of New York City and New York State news right now, with all these transitions and candidates, which for our purposes is a chance to take stock and let you take stock on the big issues facing us all. Good Cause eviction, crime and criminal justice reform, educational equity, some of the one on the table as we are joined now by Jumaane Williams elected last month through a full term as a New York City Public Advocate, and also with his hat in the ring for governor of New York State. Public Advocate, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jumaane Williams: Thanks, Brian. Always a pleasure to be on. Really appreciate it. Just to folks who are listening, I just want to thank them so much for giving me my first full-term.

Brian Lehrer: I want to go through all the issues that I just set up and let's start with Good Cause eviction. It's the very first thing on the issue section of your campaign website, would you start by explaining it to those listeners unfamiliar?

Jumaane Williams: Right now, there are a lot of tenants who don't have protections that we normally assign tenants with. In New York City there's a little bit more protections across the state, however, there are a lot of tenants who have no protections at all. We think of rent regulation sometimes it's a price point, but it also provides protection to the tenants to not just get evicted, at least renewals are automatic.

There's a lot of tenants in the city who don't, and those are actually the smaller homeowners or one or two-family homes that make up a lot of the district I used to represent in the Council. That's the same across the state. We are just saying that you should not just be able to evict the tenant for no reason at all, which is the case in too many households, are that people have to be able to have the protections of having a home.

We're actually not taking away the power to evict and it doesn't change anything that has to do with if you actually are not paying rent. It's simply just saying that you should have a good cause to be able to fix them.

Brian Lehrer: As I understand it, there is a price point aspect to this. Most landlords could not raise rents more than 3% in one year or 1.5% of the consumer price index, whatever that means, whichever is bigger. 3%, let's say, because that's the one that people will understand. Couldn't raise rents more than 3% in one year for most non-rent stabilized departments around the state. Is that something you support and if so, make the case?

Jumaane Williams: I do. We can always figure out and negotiate what the actual percentage is but I think that's a great way to start the conversation. The reason we have to have that is if you, let's say, make it so that you should have a good reason to evict someone, what landlords have done was just jack up the price so that it's unaffordable.

It takes away any protections that people would have. Someone could be paying a thousand dollars in rent and landlord say, "Okay, now you got to pay me $3,000." That's a backway around any protections that exists. I think you do have to have some protections to make sure that we're fully protecting tenants.

Brian Lehrer: As you heard in the clip, Mayor de Blasio has reservations, assuming he does run for governor, that's at least one difference between you, at least until he takes a firmer position. He expressed reservations there without taking a firm position. What about the reasons for his doubt, especially revolving around small landlords?

Jumaane Williams: I've been working on housing issues for about 28 of the Tenant Organizer in particular. Also, I've had tenants of my own. I've had a two-family home of my own so I understand both sides. I've been a tenant and am a tenant, so I understand it. I had some of those concerns many, many years ago until you finally understood what the issue is.

Ironically, the very people who you're describing, the one or two-family homes, which we do have to look at differently. There's just no way about it. We can't keep looking at these small homeowners the same way as we do as big landlords but ironically, those are the people that we're actually trying to deal with it because a good amount of homes have tenants that are in one or two-family homes a large part of the population in New York City, and even more across the state, primarily across the state, that is where people are housed.

I think he has to do a better job of understanding it because those are the exact tenants that have no protection right now and we are trying to provide a level of protection to them. I do understand as having been a homeowner, my mother's a homeowner. You want to make sure that we are treating them differently than we do in larger buildings just as a general rule but here there's protections that we have to provide tenants from mass eviction.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your call is welcome here. Anything you want to ask Public Advocate Jumaane Williams, or gubernatorial candidate Jumaane Williams. They're both here. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet your question @BrianLehrer. Before I move on to some of the other issues that I started with the new crime stats, next we have a call coming in already on Good Cause eviction from Jim in Brooklyn. Jim, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Jim: Brian, how are you doing? Thanks for taking my call. I just like to ask Jumaane if he thinks that the cap on rents on free-market apartments is actually going to be counterintuitive with the limited supply of housing in Brooklyn as it is. I believe there's a million apartments that are rent-stabilized, the rest are free market.

What's going to happen when landlords have to make up for the increase in their property tax when an apartment goes vacant, because they've only been able to charge 3% as a maximum rent? Which honestly never really happens, because landlords ultimately want to keep tenants. What's going to happen when your tenants finally move out and landlords need to get their money back? Does that cause the price of rents to skyrocket with the limited supply that we have?

Everybody wants to give tenants benefits to the doubt, but honestly, this goes further than that. If you have a nightmare tenant, they stop paying, you're done, you're out for nine months. If you have three or four buildings, and you've maintained the building that's a hundred years old, and you invested, and you took the risk to bring this thing up to snuff, to bring it up to fair market value, where are the economics in all this? This is just, more or less, political theater really, and realistically, this thing is ridiculous. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Jim. Public Advocate, respond. Did we lose Public Advocate Jumaane Williams? I think maybe we did. We will get the Public Advocate back. Next thing we're going to go on to as soon as we get that line back is public safety. I went over some of the numbers and Mayor de Blasio's final crime briefing, listeners, how's it feeling to you out there? That's one of the things that you can just report on, as well as ask Jumaane Williams about. How proud should de Blasio be of his record on violent crime in your opinion?

We'll talk to him about that on tomorrow's show, the outgoing Mayor. Eric Adams has taken the position and candidate for governor, Tom Suozzi, took it here last week, that the bail reform law should be amended to allow judges to take dangerousness of a suspect into account, which only New York State, among other 50 states, prohibits now from what I've read.

Suozzi and Adam say, "People shouldn't be locked up for being too poor to afford bail compared to other people charged with the same crimes, but judges should have discretion based on public safety concerns." Maybe you want to weigh in on that. In fact, let me play a couple of clips while we're reconnecting with Jumaane Williams.

The rise in murders in cities nationwide, from figures released yesterday, not just in New York City, many cities were releasing crime figures yesterday, and this has sparked some conversation that we will get to and now I'm going to put in my back pocket for a few more minutes because we do have Public Advocate Jumaane Williams back. Public Advocate, we were able to hear that caller's concern about Good Cause eviction?

Jumaane Williams: I didn't hear the last, but I did hear the gist and it's a gist I've heard a lot. I understand the concern, and just having had the experience of being a small homeowner and landlord myself, and this thing of having tenants, I do understand both and try to juggle both. This is one of the reasons that the consumer index is placed there as well, so that we are allowing for the market to help dictate some of these as well. Hopefully, I address some of it.

One of the points that he made, most the, "Free market", units don't get jumpstarter high anyway, because as mentioned, people want to retain good tenants, but they do get the jump of people who sit and try and evict people. We have to protect for that as well. As I mentioned before, you just have a tremendous amount of the population that lives in these homes and we are facing massive eviction, generally speaking, we have to find protections for this, but we do want to make sure people can pay their bills.

This doesn't prevent someone from inhibition if they're not paying. I want to make sure that we're not conflating that. What we're seeing, even with rent regulation, when left to [unintelligible 00:15:03], the market doesn't protect people who need the most protection. That's why we've seen homelessness spike, that's why we see the lack of income target affordability in the tenants and for homeowners [unintelligible 00:15:19].

Trying to find a home, even working full time for the city is difficult, and so we have to have laws that protect the homeowner, the landlord, and the tenant and right now we're seeing mass eviction being faced by tenants.

Brian Lehrer: Let's go on to public safety. I went over some of the numbers in Mayor de Blasio's final crime briefing, do you agree with his boast that New York remains the safest big city in America?

Jumaane Williams: I do agree that we are much safer, "Than many of the big cities." I don't know if we're the safest, but we are looking in a lot of areas are in some of the cities across the state. I don't know if safe is the best word to use right now, and I do think there were colossal failures that are being glossed over. One, if you're a victim of crime, data means nothing to you, I want to be clear about that.

We should be happy that we're not as bad as other places, but what's disappointing to me is we were going and headed in such a great direction, sadly we had to do that pushing and controlling, and this pushback from the Mayor the whole step of the way, but we got to this on 2018 and 2019. I think we've begun to retreat from some of those advances we were making and we're seeing the crossover right now. It's very hard to watch and realize we touched it.

Brian Lehrer: Eric Adams has taken the position. I mentioned while we were reconnecting your line that one of your rivals for governor, Tom Swasey, congressman, took it here last week that the bail reform law should be amended to allow judges to take dangerousness of a suspect into account, which only New York State prohibits now. Swasey and Adams say, "People shouldn't be locked up for being too poor to afford bail compared to other people charged with the same crime, but judges should have discretion based on public safety concerns regarding the defendant", what's your view?

Jumaane Williams: One, I've been a leading voice on public safety for over the past decade in the city and the state, and everything we said we should do to keep communities safe, even if we have to push and fight, start to get done. What's interesting to me, people will sometimes try to cast aspersions and blame for the rise in crime right now, and I always say, "You don't have a problem, because when you have to credit me with the drop in crime that happened from 2010 to 2018 to 2019, these are the years are now comparing things to".

What we need to do is be honest about crime rising, and violence going up, but we have to do it in a way that doesn't make a massive stereo unnecessarily. What's happening, bail does not play out with the things that we're seeing. We have to make sure we're focused on the right thing, because people are afraid and at times rightfully so, so just anything to happen, it doesn't matter if it works or not. Now bail reforms, as you mentioned, has nothing to do with crime in other cities, where crime is even worse.

What I think we need to do is work on the things that we had talked about for years, to dealing with the root cause of crime, make sure we are using law enforcement appropriately. One thing I do agree on, is that we have to make the court system move faster, we have to make sure the gun court courts are moving swiftly, so we can get these cases adjudicated, but just focus on bail reform. All of a sudden, if you don't bail reform, we won't have to deal with any of these. It's just not borne out by the numbers.

There have always been people who were [unintelligible 00:19:09], even before the bail reforms, there sadly, have always been people who had other court cases and committed crimes. That's not new, it is something that we should try to adjust, but focus on this bail reform, it allows people to say they're doing something even if it's not going to make people safer. That's always been dangerous in our country.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take a call for you from outside the city from somebody who's curious about your vying for governor. Catherine in New Rochelle, you're on WNYC with Jumaane Williams. Hi, Catherine.

Catherine: Hi, Brian. Mr. Williams in your role as hopeful candidate for the governorship of New York State, I'm interested in what you see as the necessary knowledge basis and skill sets for someone who wants to be a good governor of the state of New York.

Brian Lehrer: That's a good question. I believe the governor has to have the ability to understand policy. Has to have the ability to manage, has to have the understanding of what New Yorkers are going through, has to have experience in putting forth policies and plans that affect New Yorkers. Also, I think this is what's been missing, has to not make these decisions based on what's best for themselves or for the elected officials they're working [unintelligible 00:20:44] for New Yorkers.

The status quo and what's been happening before, has not worked. I think New Yorkers understand right now. I get sickened when I hear people say we don't want to return to normal because normal didn't work for most in the office. The atmosphere that was created in that normal was created by a lot of people who empowered it. What I'm putting forth is a new normal, a different vision for this state. A transformative economy that helps everyone in the state that allows people to have the resources they need to live their best lives. What I've seen across the state, even though there are regional and cultural differences. Primarily have been similarities in public safety, in housing and education, access to health and mental health, and many of the municipalities that have been looking for Albany for assistance.

Brian Lehrer: On public safety. Catherine, thank you for your call. We should ask that same question to all the gubernatorial candidates as they come on. On public safety, the rise in murders in cities nationwide from the figures released this week sparked some conversation on MSNBC this morning that I would be curious to get your take on. Apparently, Philadelphia famous progressive prosecutor, Larry Krasner, who's white, reacted to the record murder numbers in Philadelphia saying the city does not have a crisis of violence.

Then former mayor Michael Nutter, who's Black pushed back blaming white wokeness for not totally getting it about crime in neighborhoods where most people of color live. Then Reverend Al Sharpton weighed in on that show, not using quite that language, but backing up the sentiment and definitely not saying defund the police here's Reverend Sharpton.

[audio playback]

Reverend Sharpton: It certainly shouldn't be dismissed by prosecutors saying it's not out a crisis. It may not be a crisis because they're not in those areas where the victims are disproportionately the victims of gun violence. It needs to stop. Yes, police need to be held accountable, but so do thugs and hoods looms and those that supplied them with guns.

[end of audio playback]

Brian Lehrer: As a public advocate and candidate for governor, where are you on this spectrum of policy and critique as it pertains to New York? Which I realize is not Philadelphia, but some of the same questions come up here about progressive prosecutors and for that matter, race.

Jumaane Williams: As I mentioned, I have been reading [unintelligible 00:23:22] for some time. I would say as a member of the Democratic party, as a member of the "left", because sometimes people don't know what that means. We often don't do a good job on this question. It is a crisis and it has been a crisis for a very long time, even pre-pandemic. Even when the numbers go high and low, they disproportionately affect Black and brown people, and they always have, that is a crisis.

What our folks on the left sometimes fail to do is acknowledge that and acknowledge the harm that's being done. What the Democratic party fails to do is to put forth a plan and a vision that will actually help. We have been doing that for some time and have had proven results. Too often, what they've done is align themselves with Republicans and push fair taxes, instead of saying who we are, this is our vision, they'll say who we're not, "Hey, look at Trump, the boogieman", which I agree with, but as a party, what are we for? What are we doing with this crisis?

You said something there that was a perfect example. When people were saying Deufund the Police, my job as an elected official, as a leader, that should have been what all Democrats were saying is not to spend time telling people who are expressing trauma in the streets how to express that trauma. Our job is to take it and turn it into practice solutions.

If you don't want to say use that language because you think it's not helpful, then don't, but you can't dismiss it. You should show leadership and provide practical solutions. That's what elected officials and the Democratic party should have done. Had we done that, we'd been getting better results, but we keep trying to push the status for model and status for elected officials. We're suffering for it, not just as a party, but as a city, state, and a nation.

Brian Lehrer: Do you think Black and brown people in New York or around the country are suffering from white wokeness, pushing policies that are not in their interest as Mayor Nutter put it?

Jumaane Williams: We throw these words around and they begin to take on new meaning and new form. I have to know what white wokeness is and what it is defined as wokeness. Because it's just hard. I think people create these terms, and try to make them mean something. It's not like Obamacare, you ask somebody who doesn't support Obamacare if they want to keep their healthcare under the Affordable Care Act, they'll say yes, and it's just mass confusion.

I do think we suffer from-- sometimes this party, sometimes folks I hang with on the left ignoring the violence. Because it's hard to talk about, pretending that it's not as bad of a crisis as it is. The difference is, the policies that I've put out. I do believe lean on the left scale. Our democratic principle policies are better for that crisis than the ones on the right, but we don't back it up. We run away from it. We need to lean into our vision of what public safety is. I guarantee you, we take the time to do that, people will receive it.

All we do right now is just say, don't vote for the other guy, but people need a vision. They need leadership. They need to understand that we understand this [unintelligible 00:26:47]. My mother had a bullet go through her car door in the summertime. Thank God she wasn't there. My sister had someone who we believed to be homeless by mentally unstable, spit on her car just two days ago on either side. My family deals with these issues. I used that to push forward policies that I understand are going to deal with their issues, but not make it worse as it has in the past.

Brian Lehrer: Let me get one more call in for you. Then I'm going to ask you for an early reaction to Eric Adams, apparent pick for school chancellor. George in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Jumaane Williams, New York City public advocate, and gubernatorial hopeful. Hi, George.

George: Hi. Thank you. I have a question for both the public advocate and the Gubernatorial candidate on the Cuomo-Hochul land grab of blocks around Penn station that will displace thousands of jobs in homes and destroy historic buildings. In a giveaway to one developer, Vornado Realty Trust, the city's largest developer, which not coincidentally gave half a million dollars, at least to the disgraced corrupt Cuomo. Also, to counter erroneous arguments. This land grab is not necessary to fund renovations to improve Penn Station, which governor Hochul is touting all over the city. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Public Advocate, on Penn station?

Jumaane Williams: Was it called? I didn't hear the name of what he was saying.

Brian Lehrer: Well, he's describing what he sees as a Cuomo and Hochul land grab around Penn station, and in the interest of Vornado Realty.

Jumaane Williams: Oh, well, I have to get more information on the particular project. One thing I say is I have not been a fan of most of the projects that Cuomo has performed. I think you've got a lot of credit, even though most of those projects have run over budget or have been late. Often has not yielded what people thought it was going yield, but did put money in folks' pocket. We saw that from the Buffalo billions even the now main Mary Cuomo Bridge, safety is still a concern there. I haven't been a big fan of a lot of decisions that were made by the governor for a very long time. I need to get more information about this one project before I can comment better on it.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe you should have put more money in the Buffalo bills if you saw last week's game against the Patriots instead of the Buffalo billions. You, before you go, have an early reaction to Adams apparently pointing appointing a school's chancellor, David Banks, founder of the Eagle Academy network of public schools for boys. Do David Banks or his work?

Jumaane Williams: I do know his work. I have been impressed by a lot of it. I think there's no one that's going to come into government without people having some concerns in jail and places. There are some concerns there as well. I'm always optimistic about a new administration. I listened to a lot of what was being said. I do like the notion of upending a system, and so that does appeal to me. It is clear that the department of education, not necessarily the people who are there, because there are amazing teachers, there are amazing principals that are coming every day to teach students. There are amazing people at Tweed who want to do the right thing, but that system has failed over and over and over again.

Some of it is money, but not all of it. Most of the budget goes to education, $38 billion. That is the largest block of money that goes from our budget, and yet it continually fails. The most interesting [unintelligible 00:30:45] the rate that we have there, you might have and [unintelligible 00:30:49]. We have this large amount of infrastructure, we have this much amount of money, and still we can't educate our kids.

Something is wrong. It appears to me when someone says and recognizes that, I don't know if the worry is the system is not working or it's working how it was designed, but whatever is there is not educating the vast majority of kids that come through that system. So I look forward to seeing what's going to be put forth, and working with whomever to upend the system as long as you're going to better educate our kids, and it's not going to create a tiered system for our kids, and it is going to be an equitable system for our kids.

Brian Lehrer: Do you know if David Banks, coming out of founding this public school network for boys, knows how to educate girls?

Jumaane Williams: I would bet money that he does. I think there are similarities in how we educate kids. There are cultural differences that you have to apply, and I think that's really good for that population. I'm a public school baby from pre-school to master's. I know it's a great system, it just needs to be shined a little bit. But a few things they talked about there as well is what helped me.

I always shout out Ms. Jeannie Nedd from [unintelligible 00:32:07], my fifth-grade teacher, who loved kids like myself. She had an affinity for young, Black, trouble-making kids, and that was me. She had the ability to put a focus on folks like me, whose report cards always said, "Needs improvement. Emotion and doubt." I don't think a teacher like that would have the space to do that nowadays.

My mother was annoyingly involved in my education when I was younger. I think parents feel that they are left out, so we shouldn't built on the things that were working before. We didn't. I think we kind of made it worse, and I'm glad that he's going to be focused on some of those things. These results are what they are, so we have to wait and see what he puts forth.

It sounds like there's at least a rubric, it's better than what I've heard for the past eight years and I'm looking forward to working with him on it. My job as public advocate is to hold him accountable, and so I will definitely do that, and hopefully not too long in the future I'll have a different job where I'll be able to provide a different set of resources in the system.

Brian Lehrer: Well, you said you were a kid making trouble. Jumaane Williams, still making trouble, of the Good Trouble John Lewis variety, he hopes, as he serves as public advocate and runs for governor. Thank you very much for joining us, and obviously, we'll be talking again as the primary season goes on.

Jumaane Williams: Thank you so much, always a pleasure. I very much look forward to it.

 

Copyright © 2021 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.