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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Happy Monday, everybody. We talked about national politics in our first segment today, including the national politics of the Republican governors of Texas and Florida shipping people seeking asylum to New York, Martha's Vineyard, and other Democratic voting places. Now we'll talk about how it's continuing to evolve as an issue here in New York with more than 11,000 of the migrants sent already this summer.

Three more buses arriving over the weekend in the biggest single day of arrivals yet, at least according to The New York Post, which reported more buses arrived yesterday than any single day so far and, "support authority bus terminal workers saying it's up to six or seven buses a day now." The asylum seekers, themselves, face many problems, let's not forget about them, even as we have the political debate, medical care, some of them arrive needing a way to find food and of course, the issue that has been most in the headlines here, housing.

Now, Mayor Adams made the rounds of the national talk shows yesterday and reaffirmed his commitment to uphold the humanitarian commitment that New York has made under the law, that the places the migrants are being shipped from do not have and that is a commitment to provide shelter to every person in New York who needs and requests it.

Mayor Adams: We're experiencing the challenges in doing so, but we're obligated by law here in the city of New York. As has been mentioned over and over again, this is a right to shelter city and we're going to fulfill our obligations.

Brian Lehrer: That was Mayor Adams talking to a national audience on CNN State of the Union yesterday morning. He was also on the local show The Point with Marcia Kramer on Channel 2, in which he floated an immediately controversial idea moving some of the asylum seekers offshore.

Mayor Adams: We're examining everything from the legality of using any type of cruise ship for temporary housing. We're looking at everything to see how do we deal with this.

Brian Lehrer: We'll talk about the ongoing political and humanitarian challenge of housing so many new arrivals, so quickly now, with David Brand who covers housing for the nonprofit news organization City Limits. We will also talk about the mayor firing the head of NYCHA, the public housing system, after the botched arsenic scare over the last few weeks. Thanks for coming on again, David. Welcome back to WNYC.

David Brand: Thanks for having me on Brian and yes there's a lot to talk about right now.

Brian Lehrer: Can we start with housing migrants on cruise ships? How would that work and why is it controversial?

David Brand: Sure thing. The mayor has talked about that in the Sunday shows yesterday and The New York Times had a story about that. This is actually a throwback to a controversial idea that Mike Bloomberg had early in his tenure where he has sent the former Department of Homeless Services commissioner along the eastern seaboard talking to cruise ship operators. At that time, the city's homeless population was only about half of what it is today. It was controversial at the time. They're, I guess, resuscitating that idea now that we're seeing so many people entering homeless shelters, including the recently arrived immigrants and asylum seekers.

I think one thing that's gone under the radar a little bit is something that we reported at City Limits a few weeks ago that they're considering many different options including summer camps. The Department of Social Services had reached out to a large summer camp association to talk with their members about potentially renting out space in summer camps around the metropolitan area. They're really thinking outside the box, but at the same time, threatening to really isolate people in far from services and probably [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: How would that work? At least the cruise ship cabins are heated.

David Brand: I don't know.

Brian Lehrer: I went to sleepaway camp. I didn't want to sleep in those cabins in November and December.

David Brand: Yes, exactly. That would have to be maybe a more temporary thing for the next week or so. Sounds like that's off the table, but just is an example of seemingly how desperate they are, and yet there are a lot of hotels available right now. They're in 25 hotels that they are renting out not just for the recently arrived immigrants. It's a mix of people who have been in New York City for a long time, become homeless for economic reasons, they've been evicted. They were doubled up, living with friends or some other associate, and decided that wasn't working out anymore and so the typical way people become homeless in New York City. The rent's too high.

Brian Lehrer: Explain more to people who may not get it at first why the cruise ship idea is so controversial. I know one housing advocate yesterday called it insulting. Yet a lot of people might hear that and think, "Well, okay. If they have cruise ships located right at the piers along Manhattan or wherever in the city they are and these are places with decent rooms, presumably, because they're appealing to people who have enough money to go on vacation in them and find them desirable, and they're right here and they need a lot of units that people can sleep in comfortably enough so quickly, a lot of people may be thinking, 'Well, okay.

We could do worse than cruise ships if suddenly there's 12,000 people here who weren't here two months ago.'" What's the issue?

David Brand: I think you're right in that you probably could do worse, but at the same time, you're in a boat. It's just not comfortable bouncing up and down. You hear this with the boat jail over there in Hunts Point in the Bronx which it's a really uncomfortable experience being on a boat up and down in the middle of the water.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, it's part of Rikers.

David Brand: Then just through warehousing people, pushing a bunch of people into one cruise ship. Who knows how easy it would be to get on and off the boat, what the level of services would be? I think you're right, that it probably could be a worse situation, but that it really is just casting people off onto the boat is--

Brian Lehrer: I know one issue because there are so many families with children among the asylum seekers. One issue is getting kids to school from the cruise ships, getting out for medical care too, anything that's basic services when you're all the way out there on the water. You have to get onto shore first and then you have to go from the wings there to wherever your needs might be met. Maybe it's worth reminding people of New York's right to shelter law and whether that's very different from what they have in Texas or Florida. What is this law or policy?

David Brand: Yes, totally different. New York City, our most iconic landmark, the Statue of Liberty, has a famous inscription, and it says, "Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me. I lift my lamps beside the golden door." New York City probably more than any--

Brian Lehrer: Has the word homeless in it, right?

David Brand: Yes, has the word homeless and that was 150 years ago. New York City more than any other jurisdiction, for all the problems with its social safety net, does have this foundational right to shelter, that's about 35 years old or 30 years old, allowing any-- at first, it started as any single man in need of a bed could enter an intake facility and get assigned a placement. That has since expanded to be pretty much any New Yorker, including families.

There are some eligibility requirements for families, but at least temporarily, they have access to placement in a shelter, whether that's a shelter that's purpose-built for homeless families or as we're seeing again now, hotels that are being rented out for homeless New Yorkers. It's what makes New York City's social safety net unique and why when Mayor Eric Adams floated this cryptic statement the other day saying, "Now, everything was on the table. We're reassessing all of our policies around right to shelter," I think, prompted immediate backlash.

People said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is something that really sets New York City apart and what would New York City look like with tens of thousands of homeless New Yorkers just in shelters if they suddenly didn't have that option automatically?"

Brian Lehrer: I think what's vague to a lot of people and confusing to a lot of people is, the mayor is reaffirming that he will not abolish the right to shelter in New York City but does keep saying that they're going to reassess how that right to shelter is provided and the policies within the right to shelter. Is it clear to you at all yet what that means and how it would affect the people that they are offering shelter to?

David Brand: It's not clear to me and I don't think it's clear to anyone just yet. That's why, I think, that original statement was so interesting because he puts out this cryptic message and then his spokespeople are saying everything's on the table and finally say no, right to shelter itself is not going to be abolished. He's since reaffirmed that, you mentioned on the shows yesterday and later in the week last week talking about that, but maybe tinkering around the edges. That's something that pretty much every mayor since Dinkins has done.

That could be making it harder for families to be found eligible to have access to shelter. Right now the city investigates eligibility based on a two-year housing history and other circumstances. Tightening restrictions on that which is something that actually happened during the de Blasio administration. They made it harder for families to get into shelter. It could be trying to work around a city law where families who arrive at the intake facility in the Bronx known as PATH, they're there before 10:00 PM. They have to get placement in a shelter that night.

That is something that the city violated earlier this summer in at least five occasions. Could be saying, "Why should we be bound by this 10:00 PM rule?" The response to that is because, prior to that law taking effect, families would have to wait in this intake office for hours or days sleeping on the floor. That's not a very humane situation. Those are the types of, I guess, policies. In that case, that's a law that would be hard to, I think, override. Policies tinker around the edges of right to shelter.

Brian Lehrer: Now add the cruise ships debate to that list. By the way, you cover New York City housing, so you may not know this, but Texas is getting so many more of the asylum seekers still, obviously so many more than New York is. If you know, what did they do for their housing needs if there's no right to shelter in Texas?

David Brand: I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that. I think maybe it's pretty bad in that people really have to fend for themselves or work with nonprofit organizations, or church groups down there, or as often the case, rely on family or social networks. For someone who doesn't have that, I really don't know. Maybe there's callers out there who have a better sense of that.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, if you have a better sense of that, call up. Anyone with comments or questions on housing asylum seekers in New York or on how to improve conditions in NYCHA buildings after the arsenic scare, as well as ongoing at 212-433, WNYC, 212-433-9692 for David Brand from City Limits, or you can tweet @BrianLehrer. Let's take a call on the cruise ships from Jane in Manhattan. Jane, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Jane: Hey there, Brian. How are you doing? Haven't called in, in a while. Good to hear you on the air.

Brian Lehrer: Glad you're on.

Jane: My thing is about the cruise ships. I worked on a cruise ship. They're fantastic. I think they would be great for sheltering people. There's bathrooms, there are cafeterias, there's food provided. They don't bounce up and down as much as you think they do. I also think that right here on the upper east side, we have a homeless situation that I have never seen ever in 30 years of people sleeping on the streets all over the subways. I don't know what the right to shelter law is, but if we can get them on cruise ships as well so that we can teach them how to live in a home situation, perhaps that would be great.

I think the cruise ships are a great idea. Also, the services can be provided right there on the cruise ships for the asylum seekers. They won't have to be floating around New York City getting lost, wondering where to go, and eventually disappearing into New York and becoming a bigger issue as far as illegal immigrants in the city that do not have the services that they need in order to get asylum.

Brian Lehrer: Jane, thank you very much. On calling them illegal immigrants, I think we should point out, you notice, I haven't even been calling them undocumented immigrants, David, because these are by and large, not undocumented immigrants in the sense that people usually think. People who sneak across the border or people who overstay their visas. These are people overwhelmingly who've come from desperate situations in the countries they're seeking political asylum from, walk across the border and present themselves voluntarily to authorities and say, "I am here seeking political asylum."

David Brand: Yes, I think that's such an important distinction because people who are obsessed with opposing immigration are obsessed with this idea of doing it the right way. Most of the people, in this case, are crossing the border, giving themselves up. Many of them are seeking asylum, which is a legal means of getting access to the country. Whatever your take on the level of immigration in our country, the people, in this case, are doing it "the right way" and trying to go through legal channels. That's why I think in a lot of my reporting on this, I also don't use undocumented immigrants because I don't know what people's documentation status is. I usually say recently arrived immigrants or asylum seekers.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not even saying migrants, I'm just saying asylum seekers because that's the category that we're talking about. This is WNYC FM HD and AM New York, WNJT FM 88.1 Trenton, WNJP 88.5 Sussex, WNJY 89.3 Netcon, and WNJO 90.3 Toms River. We are a New York and New Jersey public radio. A few more minutes with David Brand, who covers housing for City Limits. David, let's go on to the ongoing fallout from the arsenic in the water scare in the Jacob Riis Houses, a public housing complex on the lower east side. They now say no arsenic after all, but you reported on some residents still using bottled water?

David: Yes. I was over there last week and talking with a lot of tenants before and since. People are aware that the city has since backtracked on the claim that there was arsenic in the water and that that was based on a lab error from the private testing company that actually introduced the arsenic into that sample. They issued a report confirming that they screwed up about seven days after the initial warning on September 2nd. The mayor went to the Jacob Riis Houses. He took a drink from the tap. He said the water's fine and he just tried to assure the tenants, but people are skeptical.

This is a housing agency that has hidden information before that has presided over some past scandals when it comes to toxins like lead paint, and so people I think are justifiably afraid, justifiably scared and so aren't going to immediately go back-- at least the people I spoke with, aren't going to just go back to turning on the taps, and now are buying water or, in many cases, buying prepared foods because cooking with bottled water can be pretty challenging. Not only is it a strain on their wallets, it's a strain on their psyches of like, "What can we trust?"

Brian Lehrer: By definition, the people in the public housing complex are lower-income New Yorkers. How much has the burden of buying water fallen on them since the arsenic scare was first announced?

David Brand: For nine days, the city provided [sound cut] amount of water to the residents. They set up water stations, they were dispensing gallon jugs and cans and pus of water. They stopped doing that on September 11th once the testing company confirmed that they had messed up and once the city said the water's safe to drink. They have done a lot of testing of the water too, but still, people are skeptical or concerned. Now it's all on them if they're going to drink bottled water or buy bottled water to cook with, or in many cases-- this is not something I thought of until talking with a lot of tenants, just bathing their young children and people giving their infants baths.

Now they're doing it with bottled water. The burden of financials [crosstalk] now.

Brian Lehrer: That's a lot of bottles of water. The big headline over the last few days, the reason we originally invited you on for this segment, the mayor has fired the head of NYCHA over this. Tell us who that was and what his relationship was like with the mayor before.

David: His name was Gregory Russ. He was a de Blasio appointee. He took over in 2019. He was busted down from his role as CEO, and now we will remain chair of NYCHA. This was a plan in the works to split up NYCHA leadership between the CEO and the chair. The chair is going to be tasked with overseeing the newest phenomenon, which is the preservation trust, which is switching the source of funding for percentage of the units in NYCHA. They say that'll allow for more federal funding and deeper private investment.

This was a plan that was already in the works. I think the arsenic scare probably hastened things, and now it looks a little more like we are taking action. We are mixing things up here. Gregory Russ will remain in his role as chair.

Brian: So he'll remain chair, but not CEO. That puts a different light on it than a lot of what I heard, which is that the mayor fired him for a specific reason, a specific aspect of it. Let me get your take on this, which was that reportedly, he didn't notify either the residents of the Jacob Riis Houses or the mayor after the first positive arsenic tests in the water. Again, it later proved to be a false positive, but they didn't know that at the time. He or the people working for him and with his knowledge did not report this immediately to the residents or to the mayor. Is that accurate?

David: Yes, that is accurate. That's something that the mayor said. I think he was pretty angry about it. Obviously, the residents were furious and just totally scared because they had potentially been drinking water contaminated with arsenic. I think that that's definitely true. Again, I think this plan was already in the works and so this definitely hastened it.

Brian Lehrer: How does the arsenic issue fit into the ongoing state of disrepair in many NYCHA complexes? Because we could have the same conversation about NYCHA and government failure at the city level and at the federal level with or without this arsenic scare.

David Brand: I think in a lot of ways, it feels just like the latest problem in NYCHA and affecting so many residents and really unfair to tens of thousands. In this case, 2000 people, but just system-wide hundreds of thousands of residents in NYCHA who it feels like continuously dealing with something like we mentioned lead paint earlier. Mentioned elevator outages, talk about now arsenic possibly in the water and whether it turns out that's probably not true but it's something that feels scary and makes people reassess one of the most basic resources of life and it's not fair.

You mentioned government failures and policy failures around public housing. Just feels like a social failure. This is housing for hundreds of thousands of people. There just was decades of disinvestment and focus on privatization and policy failures at the federal, the state, and the city level. Lack of funding. Who bears the burden for that? It's hundreds of thousands of working-class people and lower-income people in New York City public housing.

Brian Lehrer: Before we wrap this up, I see we have two callers named Derek on hold with interesting points to make about the asylum seeker situation. We'll take Derek on the Upper West Side first and then Derek in Harlem, we see you, we'll take you second. Derek on the Upper West Side is calling to answer the question that neither of us knew the answer to about how Texas without a right to shelter law like New York has, provides for the many asylum seekers who are crossing there. So many more than in New York, what happens to them? Derek on the Upper West Side, you're on WNYC. Hello.

Derek 1: Thanks. I'll get right to it. The information is a little bit dated but goes to the answer to the question how Texas is treating the migrants. We will remember that I think it was last year that the Haitian migrant who were crossing the southern border across the Rio Grande and in Texas were corralled in camping out underneath a bridge or overpass in Texas. Not with tents, but blankets and sets and tarps. It turns out that they were being delivered water but the Texas government did not allow food deliveries, even food trucks.

The males of the family units or the males at the camp would cross back into Mexico back across the Rio Grande, buy food and then try to bring it back to the families on the Texas side of the river. You remember that the border patrol on horseback was using the reins of the horses like whips and using these horses to block the men from crossing back into Texas saying, "Don't come in." The males fought through the harassment because they were delivering food back to their families.

The report, I think was last week from the border patrol's investigation said no people were actually hit with the whipping motions. They were just threatened. The issue if you look at the film very closely, I've done this about 50 times, you can see that the men were carrying these plastic bags with the square sheets in it that remind any New Yorker who are buying food to go in the styrofoam containers and you carry it in little plastic bags which was exactly what those men were carrying back across the river back to their family.

Brian Lehrer: Derek, I'm going to leave it there. Thank you very much. That's one partial answer to that question that pertains to the influx of Haitian migrants back then. Obviously, there's more to say about that. Let's see. My producer just sent me a message that said, "I see a Texas Tribune article from last week that quotes an asylum seeker who said he was in a shelter in San Antonio." That was one of the [unintelligible 00:24:32] vineyard arrivals who said that. There's some shelter system down there. Obviously, we're not giving you a good answer on this. We'll follow up on future shows. Derek in Harlem, you're on WNYC, Hi, Derek.

Derek 2: Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you.

Derek 2: I'm calling actually to shed light on a federally funded program that's city administered here in New York by the name of HASA. This particular program solves a particular class of people in New York that are a special class of people for health reasons. Now, this particular program is aimed to get these people housing. Yes, it does include immigrants and migrants that do come and make it to the city. Really what it does, or what it's geared to do is to help them obtain housing, safe, stable housing, but they languish often in SROs in which as you know, can be somewhat unhealthy and unsafe and unsanitary at certain times.

What is the city doing to really get these people's place because they have very vulnerable health situations?

Brian Lehrer: Derek, I'm going to get you an answer to that question as best as David Brand can answer it, and then we're going to be at a time for this segment. David, there's a larger implication even than the specific question that Derek is asking. A larger implication of his question is that the shelter system for unhoused New Yorkers was already stretched before this wave of asylum seekers started being sent by governor Abbott. What's happening to them?

David Brand: That's a good question, Derek and it's something I'm reporting on. If you want to send me an email, I'm at david@citylimits.org. He's referring to the HIV/AIDS Service Administration which is under Human Resources Administration here in New York City. They do offer temporary shelter and emergency housing, longer-term housing for people with HIV/AIDS in New York City. That's just a group of people who aren't even counted in the larger Department of Homeless Services shelter system that we are now seeing strained to capacity.

One thing that all of New York City's shelter systems have in common is that the rate of move-outs to permanent housing, especially using rental assistance programs, like here in New York City, the city FEPS voucher, while there has been progress, it's from past years, it's still really slow. There are still so many administrative obstacles, there are so many obstacles that people face on the private market when it comes to discrimination and source of income discrimination in particular.

That's something that we see in the most recent mayor's management report, that those types of move-outs aren't going very well. That while they're saying they're doing about 200 a week, that still pales in comparison to the need, and now that we see the number of people entering the shelter system is really outpacing the number of people making those exits to permanent housing. I think it would probably be a really important policy focus moving forward, especially since we're seeing people who don't qualify for rental assistance which is recently arrived immigrants, asylum seekers.

Finding housing is going to be a real challenge.

Brian Lehrer: Derek, thank you for raising that. David Brand, thank you always for your reporting on housing for City Limits and for coming on the show again.

David Brand: Thanks so much, Brian.

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