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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, and June isn't just primary month, it's Pride month. Here in New York City, pride is back in person. Last year, you'll remember for the first time, since it was first celebrated in 1970, New York City's LGBTQ Pride March was held mostly virtually, but it's back this year with a blend of engaging, and inclusive in-person and virtual activities, pick your own comfort level in this transitional moment.

Unlike other years, Heritage of Pride, the organization, which runs New York City Pride, announced a few days ago, "That police and corrections officers could not march as groups in the Pride Parade until at least 2025, and that it would rely on trained private security, volunteers, and community leaders to keep the peace at events."

Listeners, we want to get your reactions to both things. The return of Pride in person, and the new policies restricting police, even LGBTQ uniform groups wanting to show their LGBTQ pride. Our lines are open, it's 646-435-7280. Joining us now to tell us all about the return of NYC Pride and the news surrounding the planning, is André Thomas co-chair of Heritage of Pride, Inc. Hi, André, welcome to WNYC today.

André Thomas: Good morning, and thank you for having me.

Brian: A lot of people know the annual Pride March as a parade, like the ones on Thanksgiving Day or the St Patrick's Day. Can you tell us whether parade or march is the correct term and whether the distinction matters?

André: Yes, it does. We call ourselves a march, and that is the correct term. It is like a parade in every sense of the word, but it's a march, and we say it's a march because it started as a protest. We always want to hold onto that. Our event, our march, started as a response to police brutality. It is still, in essence, a protest movement, a protest march. Now, it may have the look and feel of a parade because of the celebratory aspects of it, but it's still very much in that essence, a march.

Brian: There've been a lot of headlines surrounding the return of Pride in person this year. The Pride March and most of the other Pride events were held mostly online last year due to the pandemic, of course. You want to debrief that for us a little bit? What did a virtual Pride Month look like looking back on it, and how do you feel it went?

André: Sure. For us, it was a big learning occasion. We had to really pivot in April of last year, from doing the large-scale events that we normally do, to taking a lot of our stuff virtual, focusing a lot of our stuff on the broadcast that we did, but a lot of the other events that we would do in-person, like our human rights campaign, some of those really educational events, we were able to do those virtually on platforms like YouTube and Facebook, and actually reached a much greater audience than we previously had.

Instead of having 500 people in a conference, we saw 45,000 people viewing some of these events online. For us, we can't dispute the success in a different way of those events. We were able to really get the message out, and really highlight a lot of the movements that were going on last year in a different fashion.

Brian: How hybrid are you going to be this year?

André: We're still going to-- I think many organizations have learned that, in some ways, because of that reach, hybrid events are here to stay. This year, we're planning to do a mix of virtual events, some limited in-person events. Our street festival, PrideFest, is coming back this year. Instead of doing our traditional march, because we can't do anything large, of that scale. Back in 2019, with WorldPride, we had five million people in the city. We're still in a pandemic. We can't do things of that scale this year, but we know we want to highlight a lot of the LGBTQIA+ businesses who've been affected by the pandemic.

We're providing virtual pop-ups that people can visit throughout the city, like a walking tour parade of businesses that need their support this year, too. A lot of other events, our Youth Pride we're partnering. Instead of having 10,000 kids in Central Park, we're partnering with almost 100 LGBT community youth centers across the country to give them that sort of experience, and having smaller watch parties.

Our family movie night, families can purchase boxes where they can actually view a movie together as a family, and have a Pride package at home. We're really trying to accommodate both, really all around the country, people who want to celebrate Pride, both at home, and in small and limited ways in person where we can.

Brian: That's great. André Thomas, our guest, co-chair of Heritage of Pride, Inc. As we talk about the return of Pride Month in person, and with virtual options, as well, as you were just hearing. André, I mentioned at the top, one of the major headlines surrounding Pride this year is, of course, the decision by your organization to limit the involvement of the NYPD in a security sense, and to also exclude LGBTQ police officers from marching under their own banner and in uniform. Can you tell us about that decision? How did it come about?

André: Sure. This is a conversation that's been going on within Pride organizations for years. Other organizations, other cities have banned uniform officers from marching. We decided last year, after taking a look at what was going on in the community, that we need to respond to what was going on. Stonewall is the event that spurred up movement that happened over 52 years ago. The NYPD apologized for the events of Stonewall back in 2019 when we celebrated WorldPride, but last year, there were aggressive actions between peaceful protestors in Washington Square Park, and the NYPD on Pride Sunday. Us an organization, we respond to that, but the community held us to task for our response.

They felt it was inadequate and I agree that it was. We held town halls to listen to their needs. We worked with a community council of activists who were much more educated, and can give us information about what we needed to do. Then really realizing, recognizing that where we are to society, looking at the Black Lives Matter movement, the effects of brutality on trans people. The numbers of trans murders this year alone, in the past four months alone, has quadrupled since last year. Just yesterday, the Florida governor signed an anti-trans sports bill.

These are the parts of our community that necessarily hadn't shared in many of the rights that a lot of the other parts of the community have gained, from marriage equality, through many of the other rights that we gained and the battles we won. We want to be sure that we know that people understand that our events are not going to be a police-free zone.

If you are doing any large-scale event in the city, if you're doing Puerto Rican Day parade, Saint Patty's day, anything you're doing, you still have to work with the NYPD for permits, for sound, for barricades. We're still doing that.

What we asked of them and these are requests. Nobody can demand that the NYPD do anything. We asked them to go move towards less visibility, giving us more of a buffer zone between us and them. Still doing things safely, more focused on community affairs officers. Instead of having 30 officers attend to a person who may be dehydrated, having two community affairs officers response to that, too.

We've been working hand-in-hand with the NYPD and the city for a couple of months now on that less visibility, toning what their presence is. Back in 2017, we have our Youth Pride, and we had police showed up in full SWAT attire. These are kids coming into an event. There's no need for really high militarized presence there. We wanted to be sure that, and assuming us working this, we needed to address it, and it's hard to do that. When it comes to LGBTQ officers participating in the march, that's a different story altogether. We went to GOAL and said, "Hey,--" [crosstalk]

Brian: GOAL, just so people know, GOAL is the gay and lesbian officer's association, right?

André: Yes, correct. Just like we went to the NYPD, just like we went to the city, we went to them and said, "Hey, other law enforcement groups don't march in uniform and the symbol of a police uniform, to people who are people of color, people who are trans, can represent oppression, can make them feel uncomfortable, can make them feel not safe and not welcomed in the preceding event." We gave them the option of marching, still participating, but not in uniform, with concealed weapons. They said that they wouldn't be able to guarantee that.

For us, we're coming from a position of compromise, they've taken the more of a hardline position. This is not something I thought that we would be necessarily this controversial. The other cities have done that. Minneapolis, even before George Floyd, their police department declared that they would march out of uniform. Police departments across the country have recognized that they can do steps, even if they're small performative ones. GOAL could wear a polo shirt that says, "Police Against Brutality," and continue and march, but they decided that they wanted to march in uniform, and that's not a stance that we wanted to welcome.

Brian: Let's take a phone call on this. Jimbe' in Harlem, who I think is going to propose some compromise, is that right Jimbe'?

Jimbe': Yes. Hi, Brian. Hi, everybody. I'm thinking you just mentioned that the police wanted to march without their uniform, is that correct?

Brian: No, with their uniform.

André: With their uniform, correct.

Jimbe': Oh, because I think that would be the compromise as to why not just march without all the regalia, that is, to me, it's a symbolic thing. Then you wouldn't have that visual element. They'll be marching into the contingent, but under a human image, at least, not that they're cops or not, but without all that extra.

Brian: Jimbe', thank you. It sounds like you said that they said no to you on exactly that thing. Would you allow them to match under the banner of the gay and lesbian police organization, but without wearing the uniforms, but identifying themselves as a group, as LGBTQ police officers?

André: That's exactly what we offered them, but that was something that was a hard line that they took, that they wanted to be uniform. They could even go as far as marching, like I said before, in a polo that identified themselves, identified their stance against brutality. They could sell the polo, donate the proceeds to the Black and trans organization, and elevate the conversation, but we feel that GOAL has been silent when it comes to these issues in brutality.

Really, we want to be sure that other, even other minority aligned groups in the NYTD have spoken up when they feel that their police departments, or the police department has made missteps but GOAL hasn't. It's a matter of not just inclusion, but also accountability. We want to be sure that everyone understands that we provided a path to inclusion that they decided not to take.

Brian: Here's Freddie in Brooklyn, who I think was calling it to say that he's an LGBTQ person himself, but appalled by not allowing the LGBTQ officers to march. Freddie, welcome to the show. I wonder if you got convinced at all by hearing André's description of the situation.

Freddie: No, I'm not convinced at all, and I think it's appalling still. They allow Walmart to march in the parade, and you talk about a symbol of oppression, paying people minimum wage that they can't survive on. That's more anti-gay than any gay officer. It's sickening. We're about inclusivity. I've been a gay man all my life, before it was LGBTQ, and we're about inclusivity. These people worked hard to get into the NYPD, to get our voices heard in the NYPD, and now we're excluding them for our Pride parade? It's disgusting, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Brian: Whoops, Freddie, did you want to finish-- Oh, I guess he did finish his thought, but André, you hear the strong feeling.

André: There is strong feeling, and I would liken this to just a couple of years ago, when the black and brown stripes were added to the Pride flag. That caused much of the same vitriol, from many of the same quarters that we're hearing today. A lot of the anger and hate we're getting it from, is from generational and non-POC members of the community. That is unfortunately where that addition of those brown and black stripes to the rainbow flag. Amber Hicks, who added those, got death threats, got hate mail, but now that flag is also seen as a standard. That was only a couple of years ago.

We understand, of course, there are people who are going to have a backlash to this too, but we're open to educating, and letting them understand. It's unfortunate, I think sometimes, that for the LGBT community, to place the feeling of safety, and place the feeling of being welcomed as a Black and trans person, are not as important as someone even wearing a uniform.

That shows that there needs to be more education on that sense because I'm Black, but I can't take off my black skin. A police officer can take off their uniform. What does make that person a police officer? Is it just the act of wearing a uniform? Is it their training? I was a Marine. I served under a uniform, in a uniform, under Don't Ask, Don't Tell, for eight years. I understand what it's like to be in an organization where you can't be fully yourself and having to fight for those rights.

I also knew that when I was a recruiter, and if I was going into high school, in my camouflage uniform, that would be triggering for some kids. That could be a symbol for kids in the areas, like what you hear from oppressive countries, of a negative history. You have to understand that this is not a-- we came with a way for them to be included. I think the difference between wearing a full regalia and a polo is negligible, even when other more law enforcement agencies are willing to make the same compromise.

Brian: We just have 30 seconds left in the show. That comparison that that caller made was with Walmart, and two years ago, the big controversy at the parade was, "Oh, it's gotten so corporate with all these corporate sponsors. Why are you identifying with Walmart or letting them identify with you and other companies to a whitewash or whatever, rainbow flag wash their images." 10 seconds for an answer, then we're out of time.

André: Sure. I would say that we hold corporations themselves to standards and we hold the NYPD to the same standards. Many corporations themselves have been the ones. Just the North Carolina bathroom bills alone, those were struck down because corporate sponsors, corporations take a stance against those. There's a role for corporations to play.

Brian: The last word for today. We'll have more Pride Month conversations on the show as June goes on. André Thomas, co-chair of Heritage of Pride, Inc. Thank you so much.

André: Thank you. Have a great day.

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