[music]

Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good Friday morning, everyone. Today, the generational divide and the class divide in American politics as revealed in a major new poll from Siena College and The New York Times. Have you been seeing this? The poll has produced at least three New York Times headlines, including Most Democrats Don't Want Biden to Run in 2024, but it also shows that in a one-to-one matchup, Biden would still beat Donald Trump. Another headline is Poll Shows Tight Race for Congress as Class Divide Widens.

Now, the class divide part of that is some more working-class people of color are leaning Republican as they see Democrats focus too much on social issues and not enough on things like inflation. More white suburban women, college-educated especially, are fleeing the GOP because they think it's too extreme on abortion and the big lie about a stolen election. It includes the article headlined in The Times, Young Voters Are Fed Up With Their Much Older Leaders. Just 1% of 18 to 29-year-olds strongly approve of the job President Biden is doing. 1%. The Times says these older leaders often talk about upholding institutions and restoring norms, while young voters say they're more interested in results.

Today, we'll talk to one of the youngest members of Congress, Ritchie Torres from the Bronx, who also comes from an Afro-Latino background and represents the poorest congressional district in America, and is one of the first two openly gay Black members of Congress, along with Mondaire Jones also from New York. We'll talk to Shekar Krishnan, one of the youngest members of the New York City Council, who represents a massively diverse immigrant community in Queens. We'll talk to you on the phone to call in later in about an hour for anyone under 30, specifically on what kinds of generational change in American politics you would like to see.

Two events in the headlines that we can ignore before we bring on Congressman Ritchie Torres. The 10-year-old girl in Ohio who was raped and had to go to another state to get an abortion. Ohio's new abortion law, if you haven't heard this yet after the Supreme Court struck down Roe v. Wade, Ohio's new abortion law does not include an exception for rape or incest. The 10-year-old girl went one state west to Indiana, and the reaction of the Ohio and Indiana attorneys general to the case, Ohio's Republican Attorney General first called the report of the rape a hoax, and now that somebody's been arrested and charged, has now had to eat his words.

Indiana's Republican Attorney General his first response was to announce an investigation of the doctor who provided the abortion to the 10-year-old girl, even though that's legal in Indiana, saying the doctor didn't report it. A new development on that part that you might not have heard, the Fox affiliate in Indianapolis, FOX59, reports that it has obtained documents showing that the doctor, an OB-GYN named Caitlin Bernard, actually did report the abortion to the Indiana Department of Child Service and the Indiana Department of Health complying with the law.

Somehow that became the issue in Indiana rather than unqualified support for the girl and her doctor. That's one breaking story this morning that shows how extreme one party is, the other per The New York Times headline on the story, Manchin Pulls Plug on Climate and Tax Talks, Shrinking Domestic Plan. I know that could have been a headline from about 363 of the days last year, but in today's case, it says, "The West Virginia Democrat's decision dealt a crushing blow to President Biden's domestic agenda, effectively ruling out action on anything beyond prescription drug pricing and healthcare subsidies." That from The Times.

I guess that's the latest nail in the political coffin of Biden's so-called Build Back Better agenda, which would have expanded childcare, elder care, paid family leave, as well as the climate provisions, and higher taxes on Americans making more than $400,000 a year. It's another reason young voters are fed up with the institution of the Senate, which gives Manchin from tiny West Virginia the same power as the senators from say, New York or California, and fed up with the filibuster which tilts democracy towards small conservative states even more.

With that as prelude, we welcome Congressman Ritchie Torres from New York's 15th Congressional District in the South Bronx. Congressman, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Ritchie Torres: Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Can I start with the case of the girl from Ohio? I know this is far from your district, but I know you wanted to react to the Supreme Court's row abortion rights decision anyway, and this case really shows the implications in stark terms. What kind of a country is this now where the Supreme Court can give its seal of approval to a state law like the one in Ohio that would deny an abortion to a 10-year-old rape victim?

Ritchie Torres: I never thought we would live in a country where a woman in 2022 would have less control over her own body and destiny than she would have had in 1973. The case of the rape victim in Ohio illustrates the extremism of what the Republican Party has become. Republicans are increasingly passing blanket bans on abortion, even in cases of rape and incest. Are the Republican parties taken the position that the government has the right to compel a rape victim, a 10-year-old rape victim, to carry a pregnancy to term and to perpetually relive the trauma of her rape? That, to me, is profoundly evil. The extremism of what the Republican party has become cannot be overstated.

The right-wing judicial activists on the Supreme Court, like Clarence Thomas and Justice Alito, often claim that we should look to the founding for guidance on how to interpret the constitution, where you examine the founding, you will find that early-stage abortions, what we're known as pre-quickening abortions, were actually widely permitted in the early United States. There's a cruel irony here. The anti-abortion laws of 2022, the anti-abortion laws that have been unleashed by the Supreme Court are actually more extreme and more draconian than the laws that were in existence during the founding of the country.

Brian Lehrer: So much for originalism. Young voters, Congressman, and many progressive voters of any age have been frustrated with President Biden for not doing things like declaring a national public health emergency on abortion rights to protect the health and lives of women who've gotten unwanted pregnancies that many states would force them to carry now. Do you think the President is doing enough?

Ritchie Torres: The President can and should do more, and we have to create a sense that we are fighting for the American people. Now, the President has taken some meaningful actions. He has affirmed that people will continue to have access to FDA-approved abortion pills, even in states where abortion is prohibited. He has affirmed that abortion is part of emergency care, and you will have access to that emergency care in federally funded hospitals, even in states where abortion is prohibited. The President has taken some action, but we should do far more because the threat to a woman's reproductive health has never been greater.

Brian Lehrer: I'll come back to Biden in a minute, but on something the President did do, or I'll come back to questions about Biden in a minute, but something that he did do prompts this story from the Houston Chronicle today. This was also on NPR this morning. Some of you may have heard it, but Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton has sued in federal court seeking to overturn guidance from the Biden administration that advised medical professionals that women are entitled to emergency abortions under federal law if medically necessary, even if doing so goes against state law.

We have Texas going to court to block even abortions that doctors consider medical emergencies. Any reaction to that development?

Ritchie Torres: It's a clear-cut case. We have a law, a federal law, that requires the provision of emergency care. We have a right to attach conditions to the expenditure of federal dollars, and federal law preempts state law even when it comes to emergency abortions. It's also worth noting that in the Dobbs decision, Justice Kavanaugh even acknowledged that people have a right to travel interstate for the purpose of obtaining an abortion. Even that right the Republicans are targeting despite the concurrence from Justice Kavanaugh.

Brian Lehrer: That's something Biden did do this week and Texas' reaction to it. The New York Times/Siena College poll, out this week and making news, finds a big generational divide and a class divide among the various serious divides in American politics right now. One of the eye-popping numbers is that only 1% of Americans under 30 strongly approve of the job that President Biden is doing. 1%. They don't just want to preserve norms and institutions. The Times says they want results. You're still pretty close to that age group at 34, and one of the youngest members of Congress, do you strongly approve of President Biden's job performance so far?

Ritchie Torres: I think President Biden's [unintelligible 00:10:19] performance is much better than the media makes it out to be. President Biden with Congress passed the American Rescue Plan, which saved the economy from the brink, which result to historic employment growth, economic growth, and wage growth. He's also had the most productively bipartisan presidency that we've seen in recent memory. We passed the Bipartisan Infrastructure investment, which was the largest investment in infrastructure more than half a century.

We had a bonafide breakthrough for gun safety that partly closes the boyfriend loophole and provides for enhanced background checks for those under the age of 21, which is the age group at greatest risk of perpetrating mass shootings. We're about to pass, in the future in a few months, legislation that would position the United States to be more competitive with China and invest heavily in emerging technologies like artificial intelligence and quantum computing, and we're going to do it on a bipartisan basis. I think the Biden presidency has been far more productive than people make it out to be, but it's been overshadowed by inflation.

Inflation is a problem that people feel everywhere at the supermarket and at the gas pumps and in their homes.

Brian Lehrer: I take that as strongly approved, but you think 99% of people under 30 don't get it. Do you think the older--

Ritchie Torres: No. No.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead.

Ritchie Torres: I think they do get it. I think they do get it because I think those of us who are millennials or Gen Z have seen opportunity in upward mobility in America collapse. As a millennial, I've known nothing but institutional failure. I've lived through 9/11. I've lived through the catastrophic wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. I've lived through the financial crisis in 2008, and the bailout of wall street. I've lived through a cruel criminal justice system that led to the murder of George Floyd, and I've lived through the mismanagement of COVID-19. Those of us who are millennials have real reason to be disenchanted with institutions and with government, but I do believe that Biden is doing the best he can.

The problem is not Joe Biden. The problem is people like Joe Manchin who have been a stumbling block to passing the Build Back Better Act, which would be the transformational change that millennials and Gen Z are seeking.

Brian Lehrer: The poll also found most Democrats are worrying too much. I'm sorry. You just answered that concern. The poll found most Democrats do not want Biden to run again in 2024, though, Biden would still beat Donald Trump in a one-to-one matchup, according to the poll. Do you want Biden to run again?

Ritchie Torres: I'm going to support Joe Biden for reelection. I think it's dangerous for Democrats to undercut our president. We are playing into the right-wing Fox News caricature of the president, and I think we have to stop the circular firing squad it's unproductive, and it only empowers forces on the right.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, your call is invited for Congressman Ritchie Torres on any of the issues or poll results we've mentioned so far. Democrats, do you want Biden to run again, if not Biden, who or doesn't that matter yet? Republicans, are you disgusted with your party's increasingly extreme oppression of anyone with the uterus or its hostility toward anyone not straight and cisgender. Where's the breaking point for you if you lean Republican on economics, let's say, or anything else that's relevant to Congressman Ritchie Torres from District 15 in the South Bronx, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer. We'll watch your tweets for comments and questions, too.

The poll, Congressman, also finds what The Times calls a widening class divide with Democrats having majority-white college-educated support for the first time. They never had a majority of white college-educated Americans in a presidential election or a poll. An apparent reaction to the Republican's extreme social and exclusion agenda, but the Republicans making gains, not a majority to be sure, but enough gains to be politically meaningful among working-class people of color who don't think the Democrats are focused enough on the economy, perhaps as you mentioned before, or as opposed to social issues. Latino voters especially seem more open to the GOP despite its anti-Latino nativism.

Now, your district, of course, is mostly poor people of color largely, and Trump's vote in the Bronx went up to about 16% in 2020. That was for Donald Trump, 16% of voters in the Bronx compared to just 9% in 2016, South Bronx included as a place where he improved. Do you see this tension among your constituents?

Ritchie Torres: Look, we have to ensure that the Democratic Party, the party of FDR, remains the party of working people. I do believe that the trend that you describe varies widely across the country. In New York, despite the numbers you cited, people of color, regardless of educational attainment, continue to vote overwhelmingly for the Democratic Party. It's in states like Florida and Texas where we've seen a rightward shift among people of color, particularly within the Latino community. Again, that is not a new development. One, the Latino community is far from a monolith, and two, there were moments when George Bush, when he ran for president, won as much as 40% of the Latino vote.

The Latino vote nationally is known to swing back and forth, but in places like New York, it's overwhelmingly democratic.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a clip of the Reverend Al Sharpton, of course, a New York and national civil rights leader on MSNBC's Morning Joe today, tell me how much you agree or disagree with this.

Reverend Al Sharpton: What the Democratic Party must read from this poll, and what many of us have been trying to say, is that you can theorize and philosophize all you want in the ivory tower but people live on the ground. People buy groceries, people pay for gas, people live on the ground. It's like you and I, Baptist, we used to say in the church pie in the sky by when you die is good, but I need something sound on the ground while I'm around. I think that's what a lot of these progressives do not understand that you've got to deal with people's everyday problems. If you deal with them, they will come out and vote. If you don't deal with them, you are going to end up disappointed in the end.

Brian Lehrer: Reverend Al Sharpton on MSNBC's Morning Joe today. Congressman Ritchie Torres, our guest. Does that surprise you coming from him and does the Rev have a point?

Ritchie Torres: Not at all. I completely agree with the Reverend, and I share his pragmatic approach to politics and the party should reflect the practical wisdom of rank-and-file democratic voters on the ground, not ivory-towered intellectuals. I've been critical of movements like defund police because I see it as the product of ivory-towered intellectualism, rather than the practical reality on the ground.

Brian Lehrer: How seriously is inflation hitting your district, and how would you argue Democrats have a better response to it than Republicans?

Ritchie Torres: It's painful. Even before inflation, my constituents were struggling to put food on the table and pay their bills and keep their families afloat. Inflation has brought it to a new extreme, and we experience it everywhere. It has been catastrophic for the lowest-income Americans, and I see it as the issue that weighs most heavily on Americans. It's certainly our greatest challenge heading toward the midterms. I'm a little concerned about the Federal Reserves' approach. The Federal Reserve has been aggressively raising interest rates and raising interest rates will have the effect of depressing demand and risking a recession, which will lead to more unemployment.

Keep in mind that the cause of inflation in my view is not high demand, it's the supply chain disruptions, and that's not a problem that can be solved by raising interest rates.

Brian Lehrer: Abel in Fort Greene, you're on WNYC with Congressman Ritchie Torres from the Bronx. Hello, Abel.

Abel: Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Congressman Torres. Thank you so much for doing this, Brian. I'm calling because I wanted to try to dispute something that Congressman Torres said earlier about Biden not being the problem and really in general, the Democrats, not being the problem when it comes to not doing enough to Senate for abortion rights and climate change and other issues that, especially young people are concerned about. There was a primary in Texas, where Jessica Cisneros, who was a pro-abortion rights candidate, was defeated after the Democrats put in enormous amount of support for an incumbent who is anti-abortion rights, who is a Democrat.

He defeated her by a very small margin, and that was something that wouldn't have happened if the Democrats hadn't come out with their most extreme support for this anti-abortion candidate who happens to be in their party. There were also reports that President Biden wanted to nominate a federal judge in Kentucky who was anti-abortion. Looks like that didn't happen yet, but the fact that was even considered is just beyond my comprehension. If they want to do something, if the Democrats and Biden want to do something to protect people and to help people, then they need to start taking extreme action.

Pouring a bottle of water on a raging fire that's consuming the entire country is not doing anything at all. Thank you so much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Abel. Congressman?

Ritchie Torres: Well, first of all, on the judiciary, I disagree with the appointment that he's referencing, but keep in mind that there's no president who has appointed more progressive justices to the judiciary than Joe Biden in recent memory. For the first time in a long time, the Democrats have actually caught up with the Republicans including the first African American female on the United States Supreme Court. I agree that we need bold action, but bold action can only come from legislation. The Build Back Better plan would have represented a historic investment in clean energy, in the social safety net.

The reason we have not passed a Build Back Better Act is not Joe Biden. It is Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema. If we had two more Democratic senators, we would've passed what most people agree as transformational legislation for the future of our country. I stand by my original claim. Even if your preferred candidate in the Texas race had won, that does not change the reality that Joe Manchin is the single greatest obstructionist in the Democratic Party.

Brian Lehrer: Well, how frustrated are you by not just Manchin individually, but the end democratic structure of the Senate, which I mentioned in the intro, which is guaranteed in the constitution, giving West Virginia and Wyoming and name small rural conservative states much more power than New York or California or any other very populous state.

Ritchie Torres: Look, the fact that the right-wing super majority on the Supreme Court, which is unaccountable and undemocratic, was largely nominated by a president who lost the popular vote and confirmed by a Republican Senate that lost the popular vote. I think is as definitive as sign as any of how broken our system has become. There is systemic racism built into the structure of the Senate. The structure of the Senate concentrates political power in a small subset of states that are much more rural, much whiter, and much more conservative than the rest of the country. It has led to a minority rule in America.

Brian Lehrer: This comes back to one of the frustrations of young voters and other progressives with what the Democrats are doing, or how strongly Biden is digging in or not on the idea of breaking the filibuster. I think they don't even have the votes to do that because they would still need Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema. They need the 50 plus Kamala Harris to break the filibuster.

They say Biden should be shaking the trees like crazy about this because of voting rights, because of abortion rights, because of a few other things that are so central, maybe climate too, that are so central to the future of people's rights in this country, people's health in this country, yet there's a reluctance to break the institution of the filibuster, which is not in the constitution.

Ritchie Torres: Right. It's actually contrary to originalism. Look, Biden should certainly come out in favor of abolishing the filibuster which undermines democracy. It undermines majority rule. Even if he came out enthusiastically for abolishing the filibuster, is there anyone who thinks that that will change the views of Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema? If you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Brian Lehrer: We'll continue in a minute with Congressman Ritchie Torres. A lot more to do, and more of your call. Stay with us.

[music]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we talk national politics with Congressman Ritchie Torres from the Bronx. Chuck in Hoboken. You're on WNYC. Hi, Chuck.

Chuck: Hey, Brian, how are you? Just want to say that I'm really just apoplectic about the fact that liberals, progressives, whatever you want to call them are so incredibly shortsighted and uncommitted, is the word that I'm going to use. Republicans vote as a means of expressing identity. They don't really vote for government to work because, well, it doesn't really work for most of them. It works for those that don't want to pay taxes and have a lot of money. What progressives do is they vote once and then they say, "Why hasn't everything changed?"

What you have to be is committed and consistent as has been evidenced by the fact that Roe v. Wade has been overturned and Republicans were working on that for 50 years, but yet liberals and progressives are like, "Oh, we have a president. We voted once," because they don't understand how government works. When the president says, "Give me two more senators, go out and vote." He's not wrong. We don't have the Senate. There is not 50 senators in the Senate. We don't have that 50 plus 1. Manchin and Sinema are not democrats. Whatever they are, I don't know.

The fact is if he really wants to do something in terms of making it clear that he's on the side of progressives, then maybe a little bit of Trump would work, attack those two. Let people know that they are the problem, that they're obstructionists. Then you run the risk of being in a circular firing line. The president is really in a vice here. What needs to happen is long-term commitment from young people, from environmentalists, from those who want to see true change, from women's activists. It's got to be, "Look, guys, we all want the same thing. We're not all going to get it at the same time. Let's all keep pushing forward."

Brian Lehrer: Chuck, thank you very much. Please call us again. A different point of view, I think, from Antonio in Bayside. You're on WNYC. Hi, Antonio.

Antonio: Hey, Brian, how are you? Hi, Congressman Torres. Good morning. Essentially, I'll get right to it. I wouldn't mind Biden running again if he just would use the goddamn bully pulpit. That's all he has to do. Say what we've done. Look, we were the ones who got children out of poverty. It's a fact. I'm sorry if I sound exasperated, but it would be a layup. He's the guy that can talk to the people that's either in the middle or in the right who would just listen to facts a little bit. We can't turn the far extremist right, the people storming the capital who want to destroy democracy, all these folks who are doing all these things to prevent abortion, but we can use the bully pulpit every day.

He should just come out every day, "This is what we have done. This is how we have done." Instead of going to Israel and meeting a guy who's a murderer, why not just stay here every day and say the same thing.

Brian Lehrer: Antonio. Thank you. I know you're referring to MBS the leader of Saudi Arabia. I know. Ali in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC. Hi, Ali.

Ali: Hi. Can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you. Can you hear me?

Ali: Hi. Yes, Brian, I just want to say longtime fan of the show. Hi, Congressman Torres. Thank you so much for putting me on. I'm actually going to say something that's a little bit different from what I was originally going to say, just in response to some of the other calls that I've been listening to.

Brian Lehrer: Sure.

Ali: I'm 23. I voted diligently and basically all of the elections that I've been told to participate in. I've been volunteering for political candidates since I was 16 years old. I'm not going to lie. It is really frustrating for me to hear people say things like, just keep voting, just keep voting, because the timeframe for these issues like 50 years, maybe this is just because I'm on the younger side, but frankly, that seems like way too much time for issues as emergent as things that I see truly as emergencies like climate change and the fact that children are being shot down in schools on a somewhat regular basis.

Transhuman beings are being denied access to basic healthcare in states across the country. I don't really see that timeframe, frankly, as being workable for issues such as this. It's a frustrating thing for me to hear people say, frankly, because I don't think it quite speaks to what I at least personally see as the level of emergency that we need to be demonstrating about how serious these issues are. I guess I'm really just calling, this is more of what I was telling your screener to hear your argument for a continuous involvement in the electoral process.

As you yourself just mentioned, Congressman, the electoral system, the judicial system, the congressional structure are deeply rooted in the institutional racism that permeates this country at basically every level and are simply not structured to create the kind of systemic change that I think really needs to be seen in this country to move it forward in a meaningfully positive way. Yes. Thank you for taking my call. I guess that's just what I wanted to say.

Brian Lehrer: Ali, thank you so much. Call us again. Congressman, you want to respond to Ali there. She was addressing you directly at the end.

Ritchie Torres: I agree with Ali. We have to move with a sense of urgency and emergency because we do not have the luxury of wasting time. Initial, like climate change, every year we, as humans, release more than 50 billion tons of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. In order to prevent catastrophic climate change, we have to go from 50 billion to zero within three decades, which is a massive undertaking, the likes of which we've never seen in humanity, and we don't have the time. We don't have the luxury of wasting time. We have to act as urgently as possible.

I agree with the point about timeframe, and I agree with Antonio's point. A number of my colleagues and I met with President Biden in the White House, and we said to him, "You have to campaign for your agenda because if you do not define what you stand for, then others will do it for you," and the Republicans are masters at defining the opposition. For me, the presidency is not as much a managerial phenomenon as it is a rhetorical phenomenon. The true power of the presidency lies in the bully pulpit, and we should be harnessing the power of the bully pulpit to make the case for our agenda and to expose the extremism of what the Republican party has become.

Brian Lehrer: Some of the tweets that have been coming in about you, Congressman, "It's always a delight when you have Ritchie Torres on your show. He used to be my councilman, and I wish he still was." Someone else though, Representative Ritchie Torres, says, "Democrats should blame Manchin instead of Biden for failure to pass Build Back Better." I think he disagrees. Somebody else wrote, "Ritchie Torres is an establishment Democrat, just ridiculous." Somebody else writes, "Sounds like Torres has the same Twitter feed I do, voice of sanity."

Somebody else writes, "Beyond infuriating to listen to Torres disqualifying criminal justice reform as the product of the ivory tower," that when you refer to defund the police in that way, so you want to say anything to wrap up to that?

Ritchie Torres: I support criminal justice reform. What I oppose is like defunding the police by 50%, which is what has been proposed in New York City. Look, in politics, you cannot be loved by everyone. I'm going to state what I believe and let the dice fall where they may.

Brian Lehrer: How do you see crime in your district right now on a scale from its reaching crisis proportions to its being exaggerated by the tabloids and maybe TV news to the point of hostility?

Ritchie Torres: It's a mix of both. In 1991, there were more than 2,000 murders in the City of New York. Last year, if my numbers are correct, there was somewhere in the range of the 400s. The crime wave in New York City is nowhere near the apocalyptic levels that we saw in the 1990s. Having said that there has been a spike in violent crime. In my neighborhood, I've seen a more than 200% rise in the number of shooting incidents and shooting victims. We had an 11th-month-old child who was shot in the face, a senior citizen who was struck by a stray bullet in the middle of the night, three officers who had been shot in the past few months.

Every night, when I'm in the Bronx, I go to the gym, and I have to be honest with you, I do live in fear of being struck by a stray bullet more so than I did before. I think the truth is somewhere in between.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Ritchie Torres, Democrat from the 15th Congressional District in the South Bronx. Always good to have you on. Thank you so much.

Ritchie Torres: Take care.

 

Copyright © 2022 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.