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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Let's not talk about Donald Trump, at least not much and at least not first. The new administration is on its way in and last night, president-elect Biden gave a major COVID policy speech with his first concrete proposals and you couldn't miss the big 180 change in tone.

Joe Biden: We will never ever give up and we will come back. We'll come back together. We didn't get into all this overnight, we won't get out of it overnight. We can't do it as a separated and divided nation. The only way we can do it is to come together as fellow Americans, as neighbors, as the United States of America.

Brian: That's just the tone. Acknowledging the problem is bad. Not saying it will just go away and people should live like nothing's wrong. Here's one of the specifics with the new tone baked in.

Biden: More than one in five Black and Latino households in America report they don't have enough food to eat. This includes 30 million adults and as many as 12 million children. It's wrong, it's tragic, it's unnecessary, it's unacceptable. We're going to extend emergency nutritional assistance for 43 million children and their families enrolled in the SNAP program through the rest of this year. We'll help hard-hit restaurants prepare meals for the hungry, provide food for the families who need it. We'll invest $3 billion in making sure mothers and their young children have the nutrition they need. This will not only meet our moral obligation we have to one another, but it'll also spur economic growth.

Brian: Here's one more for now that the outgoing administration would only spin as a positive, but the incoming one sees as more complex.

Biden: There is real pain overwhelming the real economy. One where people rely on paychecks, not their investments to pay for their bills and their mails and their children's needs. You won't see this pain if your scorecard is how things are going on Wall Street, but you will see it very clearly if you examine what the twin crises of a pandemic and this sinking economy have laid bare. The growing divide between those few people at the very top who are doing quite well in this economy, and the rest of America.

Brian: Yes, Wall Street is doing well, hitting record highs, but the bigger picture is more complex. Biden is proposing a $1.9 billion relief bill. Therefore, he plans to announce specifics of 100 million vaccines in 100 days. That plan is coming out today. He's also announcing inauguration plans in the midst of more National Guard members coming to DC than the combined total of US troops in Afghanistan, Syria, and Iraq today.

With me now, New Jersey Congressman Bill Pascrell, Democrat from New Jersey's 9th district from right across the river, from Upper Manhattan, out to Paterson, and down a little North of Newark. Congressman, always a pleasure. Welcome back to WNYC.

Bill Pascrell: Well, happy New Year to you, Brian. It's great to hear your voice. I haven't talked to you since mid-August and what has happened since? [chuckles]

Brian: A little bit, a few things.

Rep. Pascrell: A little bit. [laughs]

Brian: What did you think of Biden's speech last night, tone as well as substance?

Rep. Pascrell: Well, I thought not only were the particulars outstanding and not shying away from the problems but addressing them and going big. International and I would think national economists, from what I've read have been very, very progressive about this particular time in our history. We can't go small. We're talking about our own people and we're talking about a pandemic that we need to get ahead of, and that's the only way to make sure we have a growing economy.

I think Biden's listened. I think Biden is going to have a refreshing voice and the fact that he's talking to the country, and so was, by the way, the vice president. The vice president-elect, Harris, she's been talking around the country too also. This is going to be two folks who are not going to leave us hanging as to guess or guessing about policy. They're going to be firm in their convictions. That's what they ran on, and that's what they have to deliver.

Brian: The Washington Post reports on critics from the left and right after the speech and proposal unveiling last night. For example, from the left, Mark Wolfe, head of the National Energy Assistance Directors Association said he was disappointed the proposal didn't include more money for rental assistance or low-income energy assistance. The article says there was a little immediate reaction from congressional Republicans, but Congressman Kevin Brady, Republican from Texas was one of the few to issue an immediate reaction saying Biden's proposal "Does nothing to save main street businesses, get people back to work, or strengthen our economy."

Rep. Pascrell: Well, Kevin [crosstalk].

Brian: Your reaction to either.

Rep. Pascrell: [laughs] Yes, Kevin Brady, usually takes the wine with the least amount of controversy. I'm very saddened by the fact that as the ranking member on the Ways and Means Committee, he's chosen and in Biden's gasp before he raises his hand in a solid program that he has put forth on many issues. I'm very sad that Kevin has chosen the Republican way of the past four years, and that is, dismiss it. They've dismissed everything. They've just dismissed the appropriate actions to the crimes committed by the Trump administration. They've chosen always to be silent whenever he goes off the track, and that's been many times. Well, we're not going to put up with that anymore.

We have a new president. We have a new way of life. Kevin, this has nothing to do with Democrat or Republican. This is a place we are at and a great history of the United States. Where was Kevin and where will he be-- Where would he have been in 1776 or 1861 or 1941? These great loyalist Republicans who embarrassed themselves voted against impeachment, that vote will be in the first paragraph of all of their obits. Had these Republicans been around in those three years I mentioned, America wouldn't be here. You and I wouldn't be talking about this.

Brian: Bill Pascrell, Congressman Democrat from Northern New Jersey, my guest, we can take your phone calls for him on any of these things. 646-435-7280 from inside or out of his district, 646-435-7280, or tweet a comment or a question @BrianLehrer.

Let me stay on that economic piece. Republicans tend to be okay with big budget deficits when there's a republican president for things like Wars and tax cuts, not so much when there's a democratic president for things like relief and stimulus, but this is a lot of borrowing. 1.9 trillion on top of the 900 billion just approved, on top of the multi-trillion-dollar previous relief bills. How do you know the cure isn't worse than the disease ultimately for American's pocketbooks? Biden made the case in one of the clips we played, that the big food relief portion of this package, he said, "This will not only meet our moral obligation we have to one another, but it will spur economic growth." Can you make that case?

Rep. Pascrell: I agree with Joe Biden, I believe in his perspective, I listened to him during the campaign. While he didn't bang the drum before he spoke like his opponent, the point of the matter is it made sense and it was reasonable, it was calm, it's been well thought out, and I think it makes a lot of sense. Look, if we're at war, Brian, then let's do what our responsibilities, follow up what our responsibilities are in a war. War is a very different period of time. It means sacrifices from everybody and everybody's making sacrifices. If we don't make the ultimate sacrifice, then we don't want to be in the war. Then we might as well surrender.

I've never surrendered since I've been in the Congress, and I am not going to surrender now to any pandemic or any attempt to insurrect or undercut the people's will. If I don't stand up, then I'm not worth the paper that my votes is on. I'm going to continue to stand up. I think Joe is at a home run. I think he's going to talk with us. I almost felt Joe yesterday, Brian. I was at a fireside chat with the President of the United States like mayors usually do. I think boots on the ground is always the best approach. I think the American people, many of them have been let down by their leaders, feel left out.

Joe is not that kind of a leader. Joe is a kind of leader who will make the decisions but will make us part of those decisions as well. This is a whole different ball game, what I think, Brian.

Brian: Congressman, I've raised so far Joe Biden and coronavirus relief, and we will get to the inauguration and safety in DC, which I set up in the intro, and the ongoing domestic terror threat. You know what? Three quarters of our tweets and phone calls appear to be about vaccine availability. Here's one [crosstalk].

Rep. Pascrell: My office, the same thing.

Brian: Via Twitter, let's know rights, "Where and when can we get a vaccine shot in Bergen or Passaic County? Everything else does not matter at this moment." What are you saying to that listener?

Rep. Pascrell: Well, I understand, and you know what? This is a question of life and death and I think what is most personal is your health. That's the most personal thing about you. The present president has screwed up royally in not putting a national policy together. He first called it a hoax. He second called it a hoax and thirdly, he said, "Don't worry about it. I'll be over just like that. You won't even know it. Having said that, that's enough for him.

We want something positive. I think Mr. president-elect, Biden, has put that in front of us. I think it makes sense but in terms of resources, in terms of delivering, we've had a problem of delivering the goods because we don't have enough people trained. We certainly didn't prepare for this. We've had nine months, and we've been all over the ballpark. We've had fights between the doctors who know what the hell they're talking about and political leaders who are simply conjecturing.

My guide on all this is Fauci. I think he is a real hero like all of our first responders. He's a first responder and chief. I think that if we would have listened to him from the very beginning, we'd be a lot further down the road and saved a lot of lives. Isn't that significant? Isn't that important to us rather than a political victory here or there, this is more important. I'm telling you, I believe that he's going to take this by the real handle and bring it home. That's what I believe. I believe in Joe Biden. I believe that he'll do the job.

Brian: That's down the road a little bit. In the meantime, the failure is on the federal level, it's on the state level, it's on the local level from everything I can tell. Where can that listener get a vaccine in Bergen or Passaic County and how can the rollout be stepped up?

Rep. Pascrell: Well, you have to make an appointment, of course, get on the list so that they will call you back. There is a state number you can call. The state's on duty every day. I think they're trying, they know that it's a failed process that got us to this point, but we cannot only talk about the failed process. What are you going to do about it? We've got to train people to provide these vaccines, to inject them into our arms. We need to have enough people to do that.

We need to have enough places where people can go. There are those places that was listed in the paper the other day in New Jersey papers about where people can go to get these vaccines, but they got to register. That's the first thing you need to do. Second thing I would do is go to the internet and look at what the state is suggesting you do to get registered, and then they will call you when the time comes for you to get your vaccine.

Brian: Denisha in Paterson, you're on WNYC with your Congressman Bill Pascrell. Hello, Denisha.

Denisha: Hi. I just want to thank Congressman Pascrell for voting to impeach the wicked man in the White House. I also want to extend sympathy to him and all the other elected officials who suffered on January 6th.

Rep. Pascrell: Well, thank you for your thoughtfulness and pray for us. We went back that night, last Wednesday, and we said, we're going to finish. I don't care how long it takes us, we're going to finish and we did, four o'clock in the morning. At four o'clock in the morning when the vote was over, we weren't walking back through the dark nights of Washington to our apartments, wherever we put our heads down.

No one said that this was going to be easy. No one puts a gun to your head and tell you to run for office. This is part of what we're doing, and you can't always be business as usual. These are unique times, and it means that everybody's got to do something to help the situation, not just politicians because if only politicians do it, it ain't going to work. I'm been here long enough to say that. I mean it clearly, I mean succinctly, everybody's got to do something in here to make the situation better.

Brian: What do you have in mind from your side of the aisle?

Rep. Pascrell: Well, we're doing the things that we need to do. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We're trying to make it easier for people to get the vaccine. At the same time, we know we have obligations of accountability. If we skip those accountability issues, and if we did not bring up the question of did the president violate the very basics of the constitution, then we should be replaced, all of us. I said I led the fight in the congress and I was not successful, not to seek 126 who were involved in this undercutting of the constitution, who were involved in trying to suppress the vote, who were involved in trying to change the vote with no evidence whatsoever.

I read the decisions of the judges in all 50-- I think it was 56, 57 cases throughout the country in each of those states. The republican judges were more severe about their comments than so-called democratic judges. The system can work if we have faith in it, and we do our part and not expect it to do it without us holding people accountable.

Brian: Hopefully, the Senate can do both at the same time. That is, do policy like emergency COVID relief and mounting 100 million vaccines [crosstalk] but--

Rep. Pascrell: Mitch's got to make a decision. [laughs]

Brian: Well-

Rep. Pascrell: He's got to make a decision whether he goes forward or stay or marches in place. He's got the ability, smart guy, will he cooperate? He's not going to be the commander in chief of the Senate after next Friday, but the fact of the matter is we are going to need his votes and we're going to need him to be there to make sure this is a fair trial. We want it to be fair.

Brian: Are you afraid of emboldening Trump for the future and making him look like more of a martyr to Republican America if he is acquitted a second time by the Senate, and he can say vindicated twice, witch hunt, when without this, he would have sunk into maybe not obscurity but being widely discredited by the American people?

Rep. Pascrell: No, I don't think that's the way. You have to be accountable. Look, the House saw that-- concluded that -- he had violated and they impeached him. The Senate had nothing. Well, we're used to the Senate under Mitch McConnell. We're used to the Senate that he didn't bring up the chosen nominee from Obama for the Supreme court because there was only a little time left. Well, the hypocrisy of that has been exposed.

We got to do what we have to do, and I am proud. I first remember there was a discussion, Brian, that maybe Biden in his comments in September and October was telling people, "Stay off, we got to go to a chapter. We got to forget about this." I will disagree with that on 100%. I don't think that's what Joe was talking about. I thought he was saying simply, let's stay with the facts and evidence and that's-- Well, that will not get us in trouble. That will never be an excusable situation. We have to do what we have to do.

I've called for the prosecution of the president after he's the president because there are states that are going to be-- Have examined him, have a record, are going after him as well with his taxes, with a lot of other things. He's not above the law. He thought he was, he thought he was at the beginning. He had the beginnings of an autocrat, an autocrat within government.

I am sorry, no one is above the law. We got to convince those folks in the hidden places throughout the United States who have retreated and feel that no one really cares about how they think. We have to get them to understand it's important how they think, that we need to sit. That's what you should be pushing now. Not violence in Washington, DC, where you're scaring the hell out of the population and gaining what?

Brian: We'll continue in a minute with Congressman Bill Pascrell and Congressman when we come back, I'm going to ask you about your New Jersey delegation colleague, Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill's claim that it looked like Republican members or a member was giving a reconnaissance tour to people the night before the riot and if you have any further information about that, stay with us.

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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Northern New Jersey Congressman Bill Pascrell. As I said before the break, you know your New Jersey delegation colleague, Mikie Sherrill says she saw what looked like Republican members, or maybe it was just one member, I'm not sure, giving a reconnaissance tour to people the night before the riot. She used the word reconnaissance, which makes it sound like they were enabling people to get ready to know the inside of the Capitol to try to take it over. She's still investigating if it was that. Do you have any information?

Rep. Pascrell: Well, I know Mikie Sherrill, congresswoman, right by my district. Congresswoman Sherrill is a Patriot that served in our armed forces, was a helicopter pilot, came to the Congress in a very difficult district, and one, of course, she told the truth. I think it's worth looking at what she saw, what other people saw, what they heard. I signed onto her letter. A few of us did, and I believe that we need to take a look at this to see if anybody betrayed the constitution. We need to look very closely and she demanded an investigation in her letter.

If it's true, those people should be tried for treason. I saw these people being led around by congresspeople. That's the only way you can get into the Capitol that day on the 6th. I had my own suspicions because they were dressed to go to the park, to go to the insurrection the next day. They were dressed. They were dressed for it. They weren't afraid to let you know what they were in Washington for that day. They weren't there to look at the statues and statuary hall, but they were looking for information. There's no two ways about it.

Now, that doesn't make them guilty of anything, but if they can sort it, if they dealt with other members, actual members of the Congress in order to layout the directions out and get to this place and that place, then we got a major problem on our hands, but we'll never know the answer until we investigate it. I believe that this is very serious stuff to see who's in cahoots with the mob. We need an exhausting review. I believe that's necessary.

I think that we should do it and that the 14th amendment section three in mind, and that's dealing with the question of insurrection and sedition. I believe that many of the congresspeople themselves, when they voted to continue this hoax into whether the election was rigged or not, when we have the very words of Republican and Democratic judges throughout the United States of America, and to insist upon that without the evidence, I think, is an act of undermining the government.

No question in my mind about sedition and I don't want to sit next to somebody who wants to overthrow the government. Maybe not by hitting somebody over the head, but trying to change the numbers on an election. He won the popular vote by over 7 million votes for crying loud. He got 306 votes in the electoral college, as many as Trump got four years ago, which Trump himself called the landslide. What the heck you think Biden did to win the popular vote by 7 million votes? You've got to be kidding me.

It was obvious that they were taking their orders right from the top. These congressmen would never consider, did not have an open mind about it at all. I listened on the floor as to whether we should certify Joe Biden and you want to know something, Brian? What really ticks me off from Paterson, New Jersey, what really ticks me off is you didn't give the guy a chance. You demeaned him, you made fun of him, sleepy Joe, and you did everything you can from distract from his win earned, hard-earned to particularly during the pandemic when campaigning was very different than it has been in the past, obviously.

Joe Biden is a great citizen of the United States and he'll make a great president, give him a chance, show him respect. I guess it starts at the top when Mr. Trump decided that he wasn't going to respect him, his followers felt that that was a touchstone for them not doing anything in behalf of Joe Biden either. That's very, very, very sad, but did it bother Joe Biden? He's working every day. He's trying to make the situation better and not simply throw gasoline on it. Impeachment is not gasoline. Impeachment is accountability.

Brian: Andrew in Essex County, you're on WNYC with Congressman Pascrell. Hi.

Andrew: Good morning, gentlemen. I'm following in the news over the last few days, that Nancy Pelosi ordered metal detectors be placed at the entrances to the [unintelligible 00:28:05] or whatnot. It was reported that initially a number of Republican representatives were angered by this, protested it, and in some cases, refused to go through the detectors to the point where Ms. Pelosi has reported, I read, to have required a fine be put in place if folks do not comply.

I'm wondering whether your guest today can shed some insight as to what rational basis? Is there any legitimate basis for anybody based on the current climate, surely a representative of either side to refuse to go through a metal detector? I can't think of [crosstalk].

Rep. Pascrell: Many of these metal detectors are already there, my good friend, we just added to them. I believe it was the absolute proper thing to do in view of last Wednesday. I think the last thing we got to do is make it more available or make it more easy to try to hurt somebody with a weapon or without a weapon. [chuckles] With, or without a weapon. I agree with her 100%, but they are just as defiant with the metal detectors, many of them.

I'm not talking about one or two, many of them as they were with masks. You saw how three democratic congressmen picked up the virus in that room. Am I 100% sure? I'm 99% sure. When they had a lockdown, when these characters were pushing their way through to the Capitol of the United States of America. You saw that and they refused to put on their mask even in that situation. Bonnie Watson Coleman, Brad Schneider, for instance, picked up from that situation, the COVID virus. When you're not thinking of anybody else's health, you're not thinking of your own, really, and you're just mouthing. I'm telling you, I agree with Nancy Pelosi, 101%

Brian: Republicans are saying there's a double standard for Democrats when it comes to denouncing violence against the Capitol last week, which should be denounced. They say, of course, and during looting or taking over part of Seattle, say last summer. What's your response to that?

Rep. Pascrell: That is part of the racial protocol of many people on the far right. I've been talking since 2008 in both the Bush and the beginning of the Obama administration that we have let extremism go to the nth degree. We have not curtailed it. What we have done is enabled it. I'm talking about racial. It's down deep. I saw and heard what those guys and girls charging the Capitol, I heard what they said. I heard what they said in muffled tones and I heard what they said, shouting and screaming to the earth and to the sky.

I am telling you that there are people who want to see destruction and have no purpose whatsoever in what they're doing. I'm very saddened by that, but I'm willing to listen to them. I'm willing to sit down and talk with these people. Are they willing or have they so clouded their reason that they believe they're 100% right? There are some people who believe they're 100% right? There are some people who believe they're above everything and have all the answers and they're not all Republicans.

Brian: Are you saying you want to have-- Wait, who is it you want-- Are you saying you want to have dialogue with violent white supremacists?

Rep. Pascrell: Yes. I got a job to do. I'm not afraid.

Brian: One more call.

Rep. Pascrell: Once we shirk our responsibilities, those people feel totally left out. That's how they got here in the first place. They've narrowed their focus on a "Savior." They've narrowed their focus in a savior who's going to bring them to the promised land. This is not Bruce Springsteen. [chuckles] This is reality here. This is where we need to look at one another as God gave us the ability to do that and take advantage of looking at one another and talking to one another, we've got to, we can't just ignore people who have so many insidious ideas in their mind that they're shunned by the rest of the population.

Brian: One more call. Darren in Longmont, Colorado. We've got about 30 seconds for you. Thank you for calling in.

Darren: Hi, Brian. Thanks for everything you do. Actually, I just wanted to talk about the actuarials basically say each person's worth over $10 million if they die. Basically, we could borrow over 10 trillion to cover that. With the low tax rates, we would be paying basically nothing for the money. I don't want them to spend, I don't want them to spend before the Republicans spend it on their corporate corporations and a few people at the top. I want the hypocrisy to have a punishment to it because we just let hypocrisy go. They can be-- They call themselves Christians when they're for this death cult. All right, I'll leave it there because I know you got [crosstalk].

Brian: Darren, thank you. Congressman, 30 seconds.

Rep. Pascrell: Brian, it's an honor to be on your program. You are in the light of Peter Zenger, this is what journalism is all about and we need more of it. We need the people who we detest right now to be on your show, not to make fools of themselves, not for me to make full of myself but to talk and dialogue about this. We are not going to do this ourselves. We must do this with the perceived enemy right now. We must move on and this is not Democrat and Republican. This is accountability. This is what we all should want from our government unless just move to Russia, get it over with. Thank you, Brian.

Brian: Northern New Jersey Congressman Bill Pascrell. Thank you so much. Brian Lehrer on WNYC, much more to come.

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