Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Well, it was a very interesting election night with almost everywhere in America that mattered trending more Democrat than expected, except the eastern Long Island and the eastern Bronx. Suffolk County will have its first Republican county executive in 20 years. The East Bronx will have its first Republican city council member since the dinosaurs roamed Pelham Parkway.

In New Jersey, the projection that the Republicans could flip one or both houses of the legislature turned out to be way wrong. Democrats expanded their majorities. One explanation, possibly, is that the culture war issue of abortion rights defeated the culture war issue of parental rights to know if their kids are presenting as gay or non-binary at school. We're still waiting to see the school board election results themselves, however, from the nearly 600 school districts around the state, and whether the parental right to know candidates or the teenagers' right to privacy candidates will prevail in districts where that was in play.

Abortion rights though, were really the big winners nationwide. Voters in red state Ohio, as you probably heard, approved the abortion rights referendum there. That'll be part of the state constitution now. They approved recreational marijuana legalization too, in that red state, and very importantly, there was Virginia. Republican Governor Glenn Youngkin was hoping to flip the state legislature red in Virginia by promoting a 15-week abortion ban. That would be a new restriction in Virginia, where it's more available, but he was arguing that's a good middle-ground position that shows Democrats are the extremists on the issue, not Republicans.

What happened? That argument was a bust. Democrats actually gained seats in the Virginia Legislature. A question now is whether abortion rights will be as potent next year in the congressional and presidential races, but yesterday's results should have Republicans running a little more scared despite The New York Times poll results that made headlines this week about Trump leading Biden in almost all the swing states. The White House argues some other recent polls do not show that, and that people vote, polls don't.

Abortion rights are a front-and-center issue in Congress right now, as even Republicans are starting to rebel against Alabama Senator Tommy Tuberville, placing holds on nearly 400 military appointments until the Pentagon stops paying service women's travel fees to get abortions or other reproductive care in the legal states if they serve on bases in states where they are banned. President Biden instituted the travel reimbursements after the Supreme Court's Dobbs decision last year allowed states to impose abortion bans, and of course, many have done so.

Joining us now is a member of Congress, relevant to many of the election results, plus the wars in Ukraine and the Middle East. It's New Jersey Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill from the district that includes Maplewood, Montclair and Morristown, and some places that don't begin with M like Wayne and Dover and Rockaway Township. She's a US Naval Academy and Georgetown Law School grad. She spent nearly 10 years on active duty in the Navy, flying missions throughout Europe and the Middle East as a Sea King helicopter pilot. Worked on the Battle Watch Floor, as they called it, in the European Theater during the Iraq invasion, and more.

Congresswoman Sherrill also served as a Russian policy officer and also served in law enforcement in the US Attorney's Office in New Jersey, so broad experience in various aspects of government. In Congress, she's on the House Armed Services Committee and the Select Committee on Strategic Competition with the Chinese Communist Party. She's considered a possible contender for governor when Governor Murphy is term-limited in two years, but she hasn't announced any intentions.

With all of that as prelude, Congresswoman Sherrill, always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congresswoman Sherrill: Well, always great to be here. Thanks so much.

Brian Lehrer: I just went through a lot of election results there from New Jersey and elsewhere.

Congresswoman Sherrill: You did.

Brian Lehrer: Are there any you would especially like to highlight, or that you found especially important?

Congresswoman Sherrill: Well, as you can imagine, I thought the New Jersey results were incredibly important. New Jersey is often somewhat, I think, of a bellwether because, like Virginia, we have the off-year state elections. I think what you saw was-- Brian, as you said, choice really is an issue that moves voters, but I don't think that alone can account for the great results that we saw across the state. Even in the southern part of our state, which has been trending more red, I think we saw choice really front and center in many of these races, but I would suggest that it wasn't just a battle between abortion rights or school board fights.

I think actually, the attacks from the school boards on parents’ rights, the attacks on what books your kids can read, and book banning and attacks on vulnerable kids in our schools after parents have come out of a really tough time during COVID-- I'm the mom of four kids, I can attest to it. As you're trying to make sure your kids are doing well, and you're trying to be thoughtful about how to make them feel secure, you see these right-wing extremists trying to use attacks on vulnerable kids for political fodder.

I think so many parents just found that incredibly offensive. I find that incredibly offensive. I want to determine how I raise my children and the values I imbue in my children. I don't want a right-wing extremist school board telling me how I can and can't do that. I want my school board focused on getting my kids a fantastic education and making sure their mental health is great and that they feel a great deal of self-esteem, and that they're good people. That seems to be furthest from their minds.

Brian Lehrer: Would you as a parent be comfortable if one of your kids, unbeknownst to you, started presenting as non-binary, let's say, in school, and teachers knew that and guidance counselors knew that and they didn't tell you?

Congresswoman Sherrill: I want as much information as I can have about what's going on with my kid, but it's always a delicate balance because we know that vulnerable kids sometimes are in households where they are not going to be supported. That if they say something to their parents they could be thrown out of the home. We all want to think that every child is in a loving, wonderful household, and I wish that was true, but we also know the facts. We know that too many children, vulnerable kids, especially in the wake of COVID, have contemplated suicide, have been thrown out of their homes.

We know the homeless rates among youth who present as trans or part of the LGBTQ community can be particularly high, especially in underserved communities. If there is a trusted adult that my child could go to to talk about things and maybe get support, things that maybe they wouldn't talk to me about, and help find their way, to some extent, that's part of being a high schooler. Now, would I like to know this stuff? Sure.

Would I prefer that my child have a trusted adult to talk to that's been trained, that is a teacher, possibly a school counselor, if they're not going to talk to me, rather than going down a dark pathway, finding out information on the internet or bad chat rooms? Yes, I'd much prefer it be somebody at school.

Brian Lehrer: I'm not seeing many school board results in my reading this morning. Do you know of any in your district where this parental right to know versus student privacy rights was in play as a defining issue, and how they turned out?

Congresswoman Sherrill: I don't know about the school board races yet. It's however been a huge issue in the state legislative races. Certainly, it was pointed because of the school boards and their actions, but parental rights and school board fights, this sort of extremist division that is being promoted on the far right, that was front and center in our legislative races, and of course, we've seen the results there.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. Here's the obligatory political question. Governor Murphy is term-limited after 2025. Are you considering a run for governor?

Congresswoman Sherrill: Brian, right now we have a lot going on in the House of Representatives. In fact, I'm calling you from Washington. I wish I was in New Jersey. We have the budget running out on November 17th. We've not yet funded Ukraine, Israel, Taiwan, and humanitarian relief in Gaza, so we have a lot on our plate down here. I'll also say the culture wars - and I think this impacted my state as well - that are going on down here, the disruption, the chaos, the lack of ability to govern, the speaker fight, I think that is something that I'm very focused on right now, and then I'll turn to the future after that.

Brian Lehrer: Okay. So you're not ruling it in, not ruling it out. Before we get to what's going on in Congress, I believe you have ruled out primarying Senator Menendez next year, or running for a seat if he's out of office by then because of his indictments. Is that accurate that you're ruling that out?

Congresswoman Sherrill: That's accurate, yes.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take your phone calls for Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill. Your questions for her, 212-433-WNYC, on anything going on in the House of Representatives or in the New Jersey elections. 212-433-9692, call or text. You are on the House Armed Services Committee. The Tommy Tuberville military appointment holds are in the Senate, but do you have an opinion on what he is trying to stop, which is travel reimbursement for servicewomen who travel to legal states for reproductive care, including abortion, since the Dobbs decision?

Congresswoman Sherrill: [laughs] Do I have an opinion on that? That might be putting it mildly. [chuckles] Yes, I do. In fact, I served in uniform, as you mentioned, for-- I went to the Naval Academy for four years and then served for almost 10, and was actually stationed in places that now restrict abortion access and have some of the worst reproductive healthcare outcomes in the nation. Like Texas. I was stationed in Corpus Christi, Texas.

If you're a young woman from New Jersey, and you signed up to serve when you had the minimal Roe protections enshrined into law, you might not have contemplated that you could be sent somewhere with such horrible reproductive healthcare or lack of access to abortion. A place where, unlike New Jersey, a woman is not trusted to make her own healthcare decisions with her doctor.

You could find yourself in Texas, Roe gets overturned, and suddenly you have no access, and you can't just move. You are under orders. That's why they're called orders, they're not suggestions. When the military tells you you need to be stationed somewhere, because that is what the military needs you to do, that's what you do. We cannot by law, because of the Hyde Amendment, use federal dollars to pay for abortions other than in the cases of rape and incest.

We needed to figure out how we were going to provide our servicewomen and service members' families some of the minimal protections. The workaround was that we would pay for their travel - we can't pay for their abortion but pay for their travel - and ensure that they were able to take leave. It's not perfect, but I think that is what we could figure out that we could offer right now to do our best to take care of servicewomen.

That is what has led to Tuberville holding up all flag officers - so those are generals and admirals - flag officer promotions. We've seen a great deal of generals and admirals in CENTCOM, which is where Israel is and where Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq-- I mean, this is an area of the world that is very unstable right now. We have a lot of our admirals and generals there have not been put in place because of this.

You know that Ukraine is an area of a great deal of concern. Many of our admirals and generals across EUCOM, or Europe, are not in place because of these holds. We have done a workaround for some of the most important promotions, such as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. That was being held up of course.

We've been pushing incredibly hard to come up with a better path forward. I think finally we are seeing some movement there because of the real risks to national security that we're facing across the world. Tuberville, finally I think people are realizing that you simply cannot allow one member of the Senate to hold up these promotions and to imperil our national security.

Brian Lehrer: Tuberville's argument, and you kind of touched on it, is that Congress passed the Hyde Amendment, which prohibits federal funding for abortions, and these travel reimbursements are in effect subsidizing that. Is he wrong that it would take an act of Congress, not just a Biden executive action, to change that?

Congresswoman Sherrill: To change the Hyde Amendment?

Brian Lehrer: Yes. To change whether federal funds could be used to reimburse a woman for money that is explicitly for helping her to access an abortion.

Congresswoman Sherrill: First of all, I would suggest that even the Hyde Amendment allows for access in cases of rape or incest, and that is not being carried out. Women don't even have the bare minimums of access they should have in many places, so that alone I think undercuts his argument. He's also neither a lawyer nor has he ever served in uniform, and I think he's definitely wrong on this one.

We have a responsibility to take care of service members who serve all over the country and don't really have a choice in that matter. Because here you are in the United States of America, and you don't have basic healthcare rights in certain parts of our country, which I deeply believe we should change, but if you are there, then you should at least have access to go to another state in this nation to seek the care that you need.

Brian Lehrer: Two more things on this. One is the military is having recruitment issues. Do you know if that's any more true among women than men and if uncertainty about being stationed in places without reproductive rights since Dobbs is showing up in those numbers?

Congresswoman Sherrill: We are trying to track down some of these numbers. It's been too soon. We just don't have all of the tracking data back yet. I can tell you that we recruit from areas across the country, many with very diverse populations, and we have seen real difficulty in recruiting numbers. I would suggest that while some of it may very well be due to the attacks on choice, certainly I can tell you that I've not heard these stories necessarily in recruiting numbers, but I've certainly heard stories of people who are choosing where to go to college across the country, and young women who refuse to go to college in areas that are restricting access to abortion.

I also can say that we have a majority in the House of Representatives that is working incredibly hard to, I think, make the military an unwelcoming place for minority members of the service. Trying to take away any diversity training programs which, as a former officer in our military, to not want officers to have access to the best understanding of their troops, how you lead those troops, how you build a team, to me is just really bewildering.

It shows, I think, a lack of understanding of leadership and where we recruit from and who we recruit from, and making sure that all the men and women in our service feel not only welcome but valued. To me, that's a huge issue.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing on this. We have these polls showing Trump beating Biden in most of the swing states, and that economic issues outweigh abortion rights even though abortion rights are popular. Maybe they think that's a state not a federal issue these days. I'm curious if you think many people don't realize that it was the Biden administration at the executive level that was responsible for protecting reproductive rights of women in the military in that way.

Congresswoman Sherrill: It's a struggle. I could point to a million different economic data points to talk about how many jobs people have access to, but again and again and again we see that people are sort of discounting access to great jobs and a great paycheck, and really worried about some of the prices at the grocery store. How we can really impact people and make sure people feel secure in their economics. They feel like their families are secure. That they feel like their kids have a great future is something we really wrestle with.

I'll tell you that as a Democrat, I of course have been frustrated with how many times we see fantastic economic outcomes or an ability to address deficit spending under democratic organizations, and then Republicans who come in and blow up the deficit and then decry it once they're out of power. There's a lot to unpack here. I think what will be interesting to me is, as I say to people, right now the only person speaking about the economy, the only person speaking about global democracy, the only person speaking about support for people fighting for freedom across the world, is the president.

There's no Republican candidate that's made it through the primary. These are troubling, unsettled times. People are, I think, very stressed out about what's going on in the world. Very personally scared in many cases about the future for themselves and their children, and that is directed at the President.

I think that when people can really understand what the vision of Democrats is whether it's choice, whether it's making sure your kids have a great future, whether it's ensuring access to a wonderful education or secure job, or getting costs down for families, versus the culture wars that I think we've seen in the House of Representatives, that we've certainly seen on school boards across the country, and seeing that then carried out by the standard bearer, whoever that Republican is, I think that's going to be something that the American people are really not going to be impressed with.

We saw that there was supposed to be a red wave in the midterms that didn't happen. As you mentioned, there were supposed to be better outcomes for Republicans in New Jersey. Certainly, that didn't happen. I think the American people have shown us time and time again that they are rejecting the politics of division, hate, chaos, and want to see good governance.

Brian Lehrer: Betty in Lake Hopatcong, you're on WNYC with New Jersey Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill. Hi, Betty.

Betty: Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. I just wanted to comment on Mikie's response about children being outed by schools. I have a gay son who knew personally other children who were kicked out of their homes because of having the fact that they were gay or lesbian revealed to their parents. The other point I wanted to make was about if abortion was declared illegal, or having problems as it is now.

I have a sister who had to have an abortion because of an autoimmune illness. I couldn't imagine what she would have had to go through if you had to go before a judge or somebody to declare whether it was appropriate that she could have an abortion. Time was of the essence. She was in renal failure, and I just could not imagine if it was declared illegal.

Brian Lehrer: Betty, thank you very much.

Betty: I just wanted to make points.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for both those points. Quick reaction, Congresswoman Sherrill, then we're going to take a break and continue with you.

Congresswoman Sherrill: Yes. Well, thank you for calling, Betty. Sometimes people don't take into account when they're thinking through these issues. They hear partisan politicians trying to make a case, trying to score political points, but it's the real humans that pay the price here. I think both of those examples really illustrate the cost of not really putting kids or putting people first.

Brian Lehrer: We will continue in a minute with New Jersey Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill. We'll turn to the Middle East. We'll also talk about the Gateway Tunnel. We'll take more of your calls and texts, 212-433-WNYC. Stay with us.

[MUSIC - Marden Hill: Hijack]

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC, on this morning after a very interesting election night, as we continue with Democratic Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill of New Jersey. Congresswoman, for you as an Armed Services Committee member who has served in the Navy during the Iraq War period, do you find Israel's military action in Gaza to be morally defensible the way it's being done, even in pursuit of the legitimate goal of dismantling Hamas after October 7th?

Congresswoman Sherrill: Well, Brian, I think many of us just really think this casualty rate of civilians is unacceptable. We're hearing over 10,000 people have died, 4,000 of those children. That's why I've called for a humanitarian pause. From the start, I've said we need to get people food, water, medical care. We need to find ways to get civilians to safety. I pushed back on the State Department with others in the national security space because we did not feel like enough attention was being given to that from the start. Certainly, we're not there right now.

That's why I've called for a humanitarian pause. I think we need to sit down with other partners in the region, determine how we are going to have better protections for humanitarian aid to civilians, and then really look at what the end goals are here and how we can get to a better place in the region.

Brian Lehrer: Is that the same as the Biden administration's position or are you going further to call for a pause?

Congresswoman Sherrill: I think Biden, and I think Secretary Blinken, have called for a pause. The members of the G7 have now all called for this. I think this is really the world coalescing around a need to stop the mass killing of so many civilians in the area, and to figure out how we're going to better protect them. How we are going to take care of their needs: the food, the water, the power. When we heard the cell service was cut off and ambulances couldn't get there, we've really got to pause now and understand how we're going to move forward here.

Let's not forget we still have over 200 hostages that we have to get freedom for, and we have to come up with a path for that because that's unacceptable as well.

Brian Lehrer: What would count as a pause to you? As a former military person, you know these details really matter. I saw an Israeli official interviewed on CNN yesterday who said they are pausing for several hours a day in recent days to let people out, let humanitarian relief in, but it sounds like it's not enough for the Biden administration. What actually counts as a meaningful pause?

Congresswoman Sherrill: No. I don't think that's enough because we don't see a different path forward. We're not seeing better outcomes for civilians. We're not understanding, I think, how there is going to be a better ability to keep civilians safe, to make sure civilians have access to food and water and power. I don't see a path forward here. What is the final path forward? Who are we working with? Who is Israel working with to ensure we have a better outcome?

I think Netanyahu suggested that Israel may maintain security oversight over Gaza. I don't think that is a workable path forward. I do think partners in the region, I think Saudi and Egypt and Jordan, have a role in this and have to come to the table. I think we have to understand we just haven't made progress on freeing the hostages in a way that we need to. I don't think that a couple hours here or there are going to get us to a better place right now.

Brian Lehrer: Let me play the clip of Prime Minister Netanyahu that I think you were just referring to. He was on ABC World News Tonight with David Muir. I'll ask for your reaction on the oversight.

David Muir: Who should govern Gaza when this is over?

Prime Minister Netanyahu: Those who don't want to continue the way of Hamas. I think Israel, for an indefinite period, will have the overall security responsibility because we've seen what happens when we don't have it.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Sherrill, you served in the Iraq war period in the Navy. Many people say Israel risks making the same kind of mistakes the US made in Iraq, having no workable plan for governor after Saddam Hussein, and inspiring a new generation of anti-Americanism the way our war killed so many civilians in Iraq, hence the rise of ISIS. With your experience, do you think Israel is headed toward further radicalizing the Palestinians, whether the future movements are called Hamas or called something else?

Congresswoman Sherrill: Well, certainly I'm one of those people that has seen the parallels all too often between the global war on terrorism and what Israel is embarking on now. I think we can see in the aftermath of 20 years of fighting terrorism, I don't think that we feel that the world is a more secure place or that either Afghanistan or Iraq or the Middle East is a more secure region. Certainly, I think those parallels are pretty glaring.

In hearing that discussion from Netanyahu and other things he stated, I think we see why 76% of Israelis want Netanyahu to step down. I don't think he's the leader for the moment. I think he is probably more concerned with his own political future than he is with getting to a better place here. Let me also be clear. I think there is a very dangerous course of thought or very dangerous thought process here in this country that somehow Hamas is this benign freedom fighting organization, and the actions they've taken are forgivable. That is not the case.

As somebody who served in our military in uniform, I'll just say a couple of things. As much as war is hell and awful, there are ways that you fight a war that do not include rape and beheading babies, and attacking young people at a music festival. When you hear from people that somehow Hamas was democratically elected, well, the last election was in 2007, and that election was fraught with such things as shoving opposition off buildings. I think the Palestinian people themselves want a pathway forward without Hamas.

When we look at what has to happen, I think we need to take all of that into account and envision a better path forward. I think that's a two-state solution. I have a hard time envisioning a stable, peaceful outcome for the region without that

Brian Lehrer: Caller from the district on this topic. Al in Wayne, you're on WNYC. Hi, Al

Al: Congresswoman Sherrill, I'm a big fan of yours, and indeed I'm very, very proud to have you as our representative in Congress. However, you severely disappointed me this week. I'm speaking of your failure to join 22 of your Democratic colleagues in censoring Representative Rashida Tlaib for her declaration of Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea. Clearly, this is a siren call for anti-Semites, and to not recognize this, I think, is just irresponsible. Further, I'll just say rather than the term anti-Semites, I just prefer to use the term Jew haters.

Also, this is no time to call for a pause in fighting until there is just complete assurance that the 240-plus hostages will be released, which include 25 American citizens. If we don't have that assurance, we're way premature in calling for a pause in fighting. I'm not even hearing a whiff of any Palestinians here or in Gaza calling for Palestinians to rise up against Hamas, which would bring prompt progress toward a peaceful resolution.

Brian Lehrer: Al, thank you. Congresswoman, you talked about the pause before. You could go back there if you want. What about your vote not to censure Congresswoman Tlaib?

Congresswoman Sherrill: Sure. I have talked to relatives of the hostages, and I think they would like to move forward with a pause as well to determine how we obtain the freedom of the hostages. I think that is a key and critical point here. I appreciate and thank Al for bringing this up because the language "from the river to the sea," if people don't understand that, is a phrase used by many, including Hamas, as a rallying cry really for the destruction of the state of Israel.

It is incredibly offensive. It is something that I will tell you people throughout my region, as they're seeing a rise in anti-Semitism, this is a key piece that I think really speaks to that fear. I think to hear that chant, to hear that there is simply a vision that Israel will somehow be wiped off the map, is just not only, I think, really awful for many people's sense of safety and security, but also simply does not provide a path forward to peace and stability in the region.

Brian Lehrer: Why didn't you vote to censure Congresswoman Tlaib for amplifying that chant?

Congresswoman Sherrill: Exactly. I did not think censure was the right path forward. I did sign on to a letter that my friend Brad Schneider put out rejecting those calls, calling out what that phrase means and why that phrase is unacceptable. I think that when you talk about censure, the House has only used censure 25 times in the entire history of the House. We've had 18 censure motions alone in the session of Congress. I can tell you that I disagree. I feel like some of the comments by other members of the House are quite frankly odious and despicable.

I disagree with many of them, but I do think that in this country, people have a right to say different things. I think that it's important that I stand up to those, that I denounce them. I don't think constant censuring, which has gone back and forth now, is the right path forward, especially when what I think the House really needs to focus on is funding Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan. Making sure that we have humanitarian relief for Gaza and that we can fund our government. Funding runs out in less than eight days. These are the things that I think the House needs to focus on. I think Al raised a great point, and I do think this language is unacceptable.

Brian Lehrer: I know we're at the end of our scheduled time, but if you can extend by a minute or a minute and a half, I will follow up on your reference to funding by asking you a real quick two-part question. One, I know you're very interested in the fact that the federal government is now giving more funding for the Gateway Tunnel between New York and New Jersey, and for Amtrak in the Northeast Corridor. Also with the new speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, I'm curious how you see the prospects for a continuing resolution to avoid a government shutdown by the November 17th deadline.

Congresswoman Sherrill: Sure. The continuing resolution is, as many of your listeners will recall, sort of the final straw that led to vacating the chair and getting rid of Speaker McCarthy. It'll be interesting to see-- Speaker Johnson has suggested that he is interested in a continuing resolution. I'm hopeful that we can pass that as we've not been able to pass our appropriations bills. In fact, I fought against the transportation bill that was not brought to the floor. I had been working against that bill because it cut Northeast Rail by 95%. Cut some of the key funding sources for the Gateway Tunnel project, which otherwise is moving along quite well.

It's really a targeted hit on the Northeast. I was very opposed to it. They did not have the vote so they did not put that on the floor. I think we will see-- Speaker Johnson, because he comes out of the Freedom Caucus in the far right, has a little bit of a grace period possibly from the extremists to allow him to move forward with the continuing resolution. I think there is also a sense in the Republican Conference they have been through just a brutal battle for speaker. They have really been unable to govern or pass much in the way of legislation. We basically, as we're trying to figure out how to keep the government open, spent several weeks trying to elect a new speaker.

I think that they also don't want to see us move forward. Before the last CR, there was a lot of discussion from the far right that they didn't care if they funded the government or not. I'm not hearing that as much, so I'm very hopeful that we can move forward in a bipartisan way, like the Senate has been doing, to pass the CR and fund the government.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill, we always appreciate when you come on. Thank you very much.

Congresswoman Sherrill: Thanks again for having me, and have a great one.

 

 

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