Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. This Thursday, President Biden will hold his first news conference since taking office. He will no doubt be touting the COVID relief bill and his version of progressive economics. He will likely get questions about the situation at the southern border, about anti-Asian hate crimes after the murderous rampage that took eight lives including those of six Asian American women in Atlanta last week, and other hate crimes that came before. Maybe Biden will be asked about low Asian American representation in his cabinet or about the filibuster and more.

We'll be doing a one-hour special on his first news conference Thursday night at 8:00, so make a note of that. With us now, Democratic Queens Congresswoman Grace Meng. She's on the powerful House Appropriations Committee, which passes funding for every federal agency and program. She's also on the House Ethics Committee. She is first vice-chair of the Congressional Asian and Pacific American Caucus and has just reintroduced in the House, along with Mazie Hirono in the Senate, the COVID-19 Hate Crimes Act. Congresswoman Meng represents New York's 6th congressional district, which includes Flushing, Forest Hills, Fresh Meadows, also some neighborhoods that don't begin with F, and other parts of north, central, and eastern Queens.

Congresswoman Meng, always great to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Thanks for having me, Brian. I never thought about the neighborhoods' beginning letters. I like that. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: Could you explain to the listeners what's new in your COVID-19 hate crimes bill? There are some federal hate crimes laws already on the books, right?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Yes, of course. First, thank you for covering this topic. Again, we continue to send condolences to the families of the victims who were killed in Atlanta. Look, as you know, these incidents have been happening, especially during this past year, at an increasingly alarming rate. 3,800 minimum have been reported and probably so many more that haven't. What I've heard from people most on the ground, these are everyday community folks who say that "People always tell us to report these incidents, but sometimes we have to rush to work. Sometimes we don't want to go to a police precinct. Sometimes there are language obstacles." They are pretty much asking for easier ways to report these incidents.

One of these bills that I'm pushing is to have more dedicated personnel and resources at the Department of Justice, similar to what our New York State Attorney General Tish James has been doing at her New York office, so that people will have more resources on the ground that they'll be able to more easily report these type of incidents.

Brian Lehrer: When you introduced an anti-hate crimes resolution in September, I see you only got 14 Republican votes. The party said it was just another excuse to criticize Donald Trump when he was president. House minority leader Kevin McCarthy, for example, said, "At the heart of this resolution is the absurd notion that referring to the virus as a Wuhan virus or the China virus is the same as contributing to violence against Asian Americans." Is it your sense that your Republican colleagues still think that language like that has no consequences?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: I do want to acknowledge the 14 Republicans and others who are supportive and understand that when leaders with a wide platform use harmful rhetoric, that it does indeed lead to hatred and increased violence. I will say that after the former president's language, the language of Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy has probably been the most offensive. Saying things that are in direct contradiction to, at the time, the Republican Party's own Health Secretary, Azar and the World Health Organization, who clearly said that, "In general, we do not utilize the practice of associating countries of origins or people or animals with diseases because it could lead to this stigma."

Kevin McCarthy also said on the floor that day that no one in America at their kitchen tables is worried about this. I would say to Kevin that things have changed and have increasingly gotten worse and really need him to understand how damaging the rhetoric has been.

Brian Lehrer: There was the disgusting comment by Republican Congressman Chip Roy of Texas that seemed to glorify lynching last week, saying, "There's an old saying in Texas about finding all the rope in Texas and a tall oak tree and rounding up the bad guys." His context was somehow that he's not against Asian Americans, but he should have the right to criticize the Chinese government without being accused of contributing to racism here. He refused to apologize for the rope and tree remark. What would you like to say to Congressman Roy at this point?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: First of all, I don't need his apologies. He showed his true colors and they were not pretty. Look, those comments-- We are adults, we are members of Congress elected by our constituents to have mature discussions. At the hearing where this happened, we had speakers from both sides of the aisle. We had Republican members, Democratic members. We wanted to talk about this real issue which the Republican Party largely seems to be in denial of. To talk about the issue, to find legislative solutions, and he just decides to go off in a very offensive way talking about lynching.

Like I said, we can have mature and nuanced conversations about countries, about viruses, about various issues, without endangering the lives of our constituents.

Brian Lehrer: President Biden still has a major nomination to fill, as you know, Office of Management and Budget, the director of that. A leading contender is believed to be Shalanda Young, who's African American and a staffer on your House Appropriations Committee. I saw on the Washington Post this morning that some people are now pressing Biden to nominate an Asian American, maybe Thea Lee from the Economic Policy Institute, who was just on the show the other week, because Asian Americans are underrepresented in his cabinet so far, and now there's more awareness of that.

Is that an issue for you in general with Biden? Should he pick an Asian American for OMB for that reason? I assume you already think well of Shalanda Young who your committee works with.

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Thank you for this question. I have made very clear of my disappointment with the Biden Administration when it had nominated all of the secretary positions in the cabinet and that there were no Asian Americans. I was really proud of the two nominees that came forward, OMB and the Office of the Trade Representative, who are both Asian American. However, Neera Tanden withdrew her name. We are left with only Katherine Tai at the trade office. I want to say that I could not give higher praise toward Shalanda Young.

I have worked directly with her. She is intelligent, compassionate, and a class act. This is not personal towards her, but I believe that it is so important, especially during a time like this, where we need to make sure we have more complete representation of the cabinet, and no, we don't have cabinet secretaries. I think that this would be a good opportunity for President Biden to nominate an Asian American.

Brian Lehrer: I'm sure you don't like two historically underrepresented groups having to compete for representation in the cabinet. Is there a collective way to resolve that?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: We're still having internal discussions. [chuckles]

Brian Lehrer: All right. My guest is Congresswoman Grace Meng from Queens. We can take your phone calls on anything that's going on that's relevant to her as a member of Congress, things we've been talking about so far. We can talk about COVID vaccination, COVID spread, COVID reopenings in New York, which, of course, all includes her district. We're going to talk about the situation at the southern border next. There are other things that you can raise if you like. Call your congresswoman if you are in that district or anyone else may call at 646-435-7280.

You've been involved in the past with immigration issues. You've been on this program to talk about those. Let me ask you about the situation at the southern border. Here's Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas on NBC's Meet the Press yesterday.

Alejandro Mayorkas: The border is closed. We are expelling families. We are expelling single adults, and we've made a decision that we will not expel young, vulnerable children.

Brian Lehrer: Do you support that decision Congresswoman?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Look, I think this issue of immigration is a very complicated one. It is really hard to just relegate it to headlines and sensationalism, as some of my colleagues have attempted in the last few weeks. This is a trend that started nine months ago with the influx of people at the border, nine months ago, when the former President Trump was still in office. I have been to the border myself, I have seen the impact that our kids and moms had when they were separated as early as the age of infancy and toddlers, and find themselves in a cage for days, weeks, months on end. Some of those families have still not been reunited. You got to think, how would you feel if you couldn't find your toddler for months, and years?

We have to understand that this is not just a movie that they're trying to make, these are real lives, real people. We have to address, which the former president did not, we have to address the issues, the underlying issues of the home countries where they are fleeing, where they are willing to take their children traveling for thousands of miles. No parent would make that choice if they didn't fear for their lives. We are happy that we are working on legislation with our colleagues to make sure that we are helping to fund programs at the community level in their home countries to restore some stability in their home countries.

Also, we can ask ourselves what are we doing to support the organizations who are actually helping people on the ground? Whether it's legal services, whether it's providing them food, and diapers. Also the safety, mental and physical safety and well-being of these kids, is of utmost importance. They don't belong in ICE. They belong temporarily under the care of HHS, for example.

Brian Lehrer: Republicans and conservative media are now criticizing Biden for having started this wave, by announcing he was reversing some of Trump's border enforcement policies. Secretary Mayorkas acknowledges that this is the biggest wave in two decades. I saw a conservative media emphasizing that some of the minors are being allowed into the country now with no court date scheduled, and that the government is spending tax dollars on hotels for people who crossed illegally. They're building resentment with that kind of language, obviously, but did Biden touch this off by appearing to be too soft a touch?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: No, I don't think so. I think right now, we are in the beginning days of the Biden administration. Unfortunately, he's had to spend a lot of time undoing some really damaging and inhumane policies set forth by the former administration. Even trying to reestablish programs that would allow refugees to apply for asylum in their home country. Let's be clear, this trend started nine months ago under the former president who was obsessed and didn't have enough information, or didn't care to have enough information, as to the situation on the border and was just obsessed for four years about the few miles of wall that he boasts about.

Brian Lehrer: Here is CNN's World Affairs host and Washington Post columnist Fareed Zakaria, who I interviewed last week, saying the system of political asylum is being used too broadly, not just for human rights emergencies, and that's contributing to people expecting that they can come or send their children. I asked, "Isn't it an emergency in their countries, if so many parents are sending their children away from them unaccompanied? Who would do that not an emergency?" Here's his response.

Fareed Zakaria: What they are fleeing is essentially poverty and violence, often gang violence. That's what everybody flees when they come to America. The asylum system was set up after World War II really in light of what happened to Jews in Germany in the 1930s. That is the systematic singular persecution of groups of people because of their ethnicity, religion, or political views. It has been used very sparingly, throughout.

Brian Lehrer: What's your response to that? What's your take on that, the way the asylum laws are being used compared to the past?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Well, let's be clear that seeking asylum is legal. It is a part of the United States legal system, people are allowed to seek asylum and to seek refuge in this country. That is really the moral basis upon which this country is founded, and which every single person, unless you are a Native American, has come to this country, because they saw a better life and better opportunities for their families. Whether you're talking about the families at the border or if you are a third-generation American, your families first came because you wanted a better life for your children. I think that we lose sight of that sometimes, that seeking asylum is legal.

Brian Lehrer: What's going to stop the surge from continuing? When you talk about the need to address the underlying conditions in the home countries, that's a long-term project. Whether republicans see it as a "too many people coming into this country who we don't want here" problem, or whether other people see it as a humanitarian crisis, because the conditions for these children are not okay. How do you stop it in the short term?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Well, this is a complicated issue. It's not going to change overnight, and that's why the Biden administration and his team are working so actively to undo some of the ineffective policies that the former president had put forward. It is a humanitarian crisis. The previous clip that you aired talked about people a long time ago trying to escape the Holocaust. This is just part of a history in our country. People seek refuge in the United States. This is what our Statue of Liberty in our harbor stands for.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call for you, and again my guest is Queens Congresswoman Grace Meng. Victor in Chinatown, you're on WNYC. Victor, is that the lower Manhattan Chinatown?

Victor: Yes, it is.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks for calling in, you're on with Congresswoman Meng.

Victor: Hi, Congress Meng. I've been watching you represent. Thank you very much for your representation and calling out that racist senator. The question that I have is that a couple of weeks ago a Chinese man was stabbed in the back. No questions asked other than the perp didn't like the way he looked. The police wanted to charge a hate crime, but a DA decided that it's not a hate crime. Even though there was a press conference in front of his office with community leaders decrying that, why is such an obvious hate crime not recorded as the hate crime, and how can we change the laws to allow such targeted hate to be called hate crime? Like what happened down in Atlanta.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Thank you, Victor for that question. I believe that incident you mentioned also happened in lower Manhattan and Chinatown. Look, hate crimes are difficult to prove. We need to analyze the intent, which is not always easily apparent. I do remember, actually, even though the current Manhattan DA didn't charge it as a hate crime, I do remember a former, I think, high-ranking official in the NYPD saying that it should have been charged as a hate crime. Part of the reason why I'm putting forth my legislation, the Hate Crimes Act, in Congress right now is because there is not always sufficient and consistent guidance from and between the federal level and local law enforcement.

We have to not just make it easier to report, but we have to give our local organizations and law enforcement more tools in how to investigate these sorts of incidents and hate crimes. It's especially needed for these cases that we've seen recently affecting Asian-Americans, because sometimes people use a racial slur which out of context does not sound like anything hateful or discriminatory, but certainly was the intent of the person who says it. If someone says something like, "Chinese virus," or they say, "Go back," or they call you an egg roll, those words by themselves may not constitute a hate crime. Clearly in that context they are meant in a hateful way, discriminatory way, and in my opinion should be charged with a hate crime.

We also have to understand that even if we were to say that every single perpetrator should be charged with a hate crime, that doesn't necessarily solve the problem in the long-term. In my opinion, educating people, making sure that we are strengthening the coalitions and communities working together with better understanding is a better and sure-fire way than just locking someone up. We have to look at it. It's a complicated problem that needs a wrap around solution

Brian Lehrer: Sachin in Los Angeles, you're on WNYC with Queens Congresswoman Grace Meng. Hi Sachin.

Sachin: Hi, Brian, good morning. I had a quick question. When I heard the congresswoman talking about it's the law, is she talking about to open borders? The situation is that everybody wants to come to America and there's [unintelligible 00:21:33] have a lot of sympathy for. Should we just open up the borders and everybody should come in and you have another continent by itself merged into America, is that the desire? Then the second question I have is that, why is always legal immigration stuffed with illegal immigration? There's never talk about legal immigration and you always have legal immigration almost, taking hostage with illegal immigration. I'd love your perspective of that.

Brian Lehrer: Sachin, thank you very much. I know his volume was low. I don't know if you were able to hear the questions. The second one was about why so little focus on legal immigration as opposed to illegal immigration, which seems to get all the attention in the media and the political sector and his first question was, what should we do, open the borders to everybody? What would you say to Sachin from Los Angeles?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Thank you, and the recap definitely helped. Thank you for your question. I'll start backwards. For your second part, I absolutely agree with you. Oftentimes we talk about certain issues, but we don't talk about immigration in a complete way. While we're talking about some of the more sensational issues we haven't been able to address under the previous administration a lot of, for example, backlogs that exist within our current immigration for people who have come here and who have applied legally. I do have legislation that I'm working on, the New Americans Act, which would provide more resources for new Americans in this country from workforce development to job training, English skills, and to just make it easier and more affordable to become a citizen, for example.

I agree with you, we are working on that. To your first question, I am not saying that I support open borders. I have not said that in the past, and I did not say that today. I was just saying that the former president didn't properly and sufficiently educate himself. We need smart enforcement. He's obsessed with his Lego wall at the border. Meanwhile, there is more of a need at supports, for example. What are we doing to help improve the situation for some of these communities around the world so they may not fear for their lives and feel like they have to send their toddler unaccompanied to a strange country?

We need to have some compassion as we're dealing with these families, but also these families are entitled to make their case. That's why we have our asylum laws on the book. No matter what, and I've been with these families in the past, it is not okay for children and parents to be separated in the manner that happened in the last four years.

Brian Lehrer: Joseph in Flushing, you’re on WNYC with Congresswoman Grace Meng. Hi, Joseph.

Joseph: Hi. I would like to get some information on the status or if the federal government is considering issuing any kind of documentation proving vaccine inoculations for travel like the Israelis, and I think some countries in the EU are thinking about doing.

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Thank you, Joseph, for that question. I have to look into that, maybe something with the CDC and the department of state. I don't know if they are currently working on something already, but I can double check and if there is anything to report, we'll make sure to send it out as widely as we can. Thank you for that question.

Brian Lehrer: Joseph, thank you. How do you see COVID in your district right now, Congresswoman? Are you okay with the additional reopenings by the state now taking place? We know that Mayor de Blasio, for example, has said the governor's reopening things too quickly to make people feel good while he's under a cloud of scandal.

Grace Meng: Sure. It depends. For me, it's a case-by-case basis. We haven't seen, for example, too many increase of cases or surges in our schools. I think as we trend towards reopening the schools, that's a good idea. With restaurants, they obviously are open, the businesses are happy. They need help as we provided in the American Rescue Plan. There's a brand new restaurants grants, not even a loan, and additional small business help. I hope that people take advantage of that but also still the need to be careful. My fear is that as more people are getting vaccinated, know that just because you have a vaccine or you've been vaccinated, you can still potentially spread that virus.

We still have to take similar measures even if we've been vaccinated and I'll just put in a plug that we need more vaccine sites in my congressional district.

Brian Lehrer: Who's that up to?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Both the governor and the mayor, sometimes separately.

Brian Lehrer: Here in New York-- Go ahead.

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Sorry. Our office tracks the infection rates, the positivity rates in our different neighborhoods, some of whom you listed earlier in the show. Some of those neighborhoods have the highest infection rates in the city and are above the positivity rates of the entire state of New York. The average in New York state, I believe, is a little over 2 or 3% as of this weekend. I've got rates in parts of my district that are anywhere from 7 to 11%, so we need more help here in Queens.

Brian Lehrer: How do you account for the hotspots in your district and what, in addition to vaccination still needs to be done to alleviate the disparities?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: I think we have fewer vaccine sites and opportunities than many other districts. I also think that my district is a very diverse district. There are a lot of essential workers. There are a lot of people from communities of color and immigrant communities. They don't necessarily have the luxury of being quarantined at home. They still have to work. They live in multi-generational households, and so they need extra help.

Brian Lehrer: In the last few minutes before you go, a little bit of politics. I see you're among those calling on Governor Cuomo to resign. He asks, why not let the investigation take place first to determine if he did the things he's being accused of? What's your response to that argument?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: I do think that we have to take seriously the accounts that have been provided by the women, by the victims. Of course I want an investigation to proceed. It's just really hard right now in the midst of a pandemic for people not to be distracted. We need to make sure that we're doing everything we can to be able to help our state and our city recover from this virus.

Brian Lehrer: You don't think the state legislature can complete the budget, for example, for the next fiscal year, that's due at the end of this month or other things to help the state recover from the virus while the governor is still in office under this cloud?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: I'm going to leave that for my colleagues in the state legislature to decide. I waited until the leadership of both the state assembly and the state Senate spoke publicly on this issue on purpose. I believe that they have made it clear, a majority of them, of which direction they want to go.

Brian Lehrer: Final political question, have you endorsed in the mayoral primary?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: I have not yet, I'm still talking to the various candidates.

Brian Lehrer: With respect to Andrew Yang's candidacy, and some people like him for various reasons, and some people don't like him for various reasons, but I haven't seen much discussion about how history would be made by having the first Asian American mayor of New York in the way that we sometimes see it discussed with respect to other groups. Do you think that's an example of the dismissal of Asian American concerns that we started the conversation with today?

Congresswoman Grace Meng: I don't think so. Look, we have opportunities to make history here. Andrew or Maya, or Eric would be only the second person of color to ever be the mayor of New York City. We've previously had our first citywide Asian American elected, John Liu, who was elected citywide and also was a mayoral candidate. I don't think that the history is lost on people, I think the community itself is also looking at engagement with the community, especially during this time of increased violence, how the various communities are reaching out, if they're providing common-sense solutions, and what their role in the process going forward to engage our community, which has often been left behind on various issues will be.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Grace Meng, Democrat from Queens. Always great to have you on. Thank you so much for the conversation and for talking to listeners today.

Congresswoman Grace Meng: Thanks, Brian. Thanks, everyone.

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