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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. You've been hearing the news that New York City Congressman Hakeem Jeffries seems to be in line to succeed Nancy Pelosi as Democratic leader in the House of Representatives, right? It would be one historic first as leader giving way to another. Well, once upon a time, back in the old days of 2009 when the big challenge in the United States was the financial crisis, remember that, with the mortgage meltdowns and all those foreclosures and people losing their jobs and losing their homes like crazy.

Way back in those bad old days, a young assemblyman from Brooklyn who we were just getting to know had a creative plan, take lots of those high-end condominiums that were being built in the city during the Bloomberg years, luxury condo boom and that, suddenly, the developers had no buyers for because the housing market had crashed, take a lot of those vacant luxury condos and convert them to affordable housing. Here's 20 seconds of what that young assemblyman told me the first time he was on this show.

Assemblyman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, we conducted a survey in the communities that I represent, Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Prospect Heights, parts of Stuyvesant, and Crown Heights, and there were 66 luxury condominium-type buildings or luxury rental buildings that were either under construction, completed but unoccupied, or completed and only partially occupied. That's just in one assembly district and there's 66 in the city of New York.

Brian Lehrer: Yes, you figured it out by now. Local kid makes good. Hakeem Jeffries, who was in the little old New York State Assembly trying to solve that era's housing crisis, seems poised to succeed Nancy Pelosi leading the Democrats in the House. If things go a certain way in 2024, he'll probably be speaker in the House. After that clip from his first appearance on the show, he joins us now for appearance 51. Congressman Jeffries, thanks as always. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Good morning, Brian. Great to be with you as always.

Brian Lehrer: Do you remember coming on that time in 2009 and resonating with people your proposal that vacant luxury condos should be converted to affordable housing? Maybe there was a little schadenfreude on the part of some of the listeners there but also an opportunity for housing.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: I do recall it. It was an honor then and, certainly, it's an honor now. We still have significant work that needs to be done in terms of the affordable housing crisis. No longer just in New York City, of course, but all across the country. It certainly is one of the things I hope to be able to continue to work on at the national level. It was an important part of our Build Back Better legislation, $150 billion for the creation and preservation of affordable housing. We're going to continue to work to get that through the Senate as we move forward into the next Congress.

Brian Lehrer: Sadly, though ironically, before we talk about you being poised to be minority leader in the House, the housing market for the rich boomed again after that. Due to COVID, the office building market began to crash as we all know because of so much working from home. Now, people are also losing their homes again. There are proposals out there to convert unused office space to affordable housing. Do you hear echoes of 2009?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: There are certainly echoes of 2009. I think one of the positive developments in the midst of the crisis is that with Democrats in charge, President Biden in office, Speaker Pelosi, Leader Schumer, and Democrats in the House and the Senate stepping in with, really, a historic intervention to make sure that people did not lose their homes through the American Rescue Plan, as well as to make sure that people were not foreclosed upon given the extraordinary level of relief, billions of dollars set aside for tenants and homeowners instead of bailing out simply Wall Street and the big banks.

We were there for mainstream America. That's tremendous work and a tremendous credit to the leaders who were in office. We're still committed to doing that work moving forward. In terms of the potential conversion of vacant office space and commercial real estate, that is a conversation that is beginning to bubble up. It is certainly something that is worthy of great consideration. Back in the midst of the Great Recession, we were able to pass legislation based on that concept of trying to convert unused vacant luxury condominiums into affordable housing. Hopefully, that's a legislative effort that can be built upon and scaled up dramatically in the moment that we're in right now.

Brian Lehrer: All right. You are running so far unopposed, looks like it'll stay that way, for a minority leader. I see the election among the House Democrats for this is next Wednesday. Can you explain to the listeners and to me for that matter? How does that work? Do the Democrats in the outgoing Congress, which is what you're in now, actually choose the leader for the next two years rather than wait till January and the new members are in?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: No. Great question, Brian. It's the Democrats who will be part of the 118th Congress, which is the new Congress. That's why the elections and what we call the organizational meetings are traditionally held when it overlaps with freshman, new member orientation. New members were in town last week and the new members will be in town next week for their second week of orientation.

We'll all be there to be able to participate in organizing for the 118th Congress. The first vote that will take place, I'll preside over as current chair of the House Democratic Caucus to elect the new chair. Then I will hand over the gavel to that new chair, who will then preside over every other leadership election for the new Congress beginning with the election for House Democratic leader.

Brian Lehrer: I see. Even though they're not officially seated yet as members of Congress, this vote counts. What's the job of minority leader? How do you see your role if you get this?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, I think moving forward in terms of the caucus generally, our job is going to be to continue to work closely with President Biden and his administration to download the opportunities that flow from the tremendous legislative accomplishments from this current Congress. The Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act will create millions of good-paying jobs, fix our crumbling bridges, roads, tunnels, airports, sewer, and water system, provide groundbreaking support for high-speed internet access in every community, as well as mass transit assistance, which we need here in New York City.

You've got the CHIPS and Science Act, which is going to help bring domestic manufacturing jobs back home to the United States of America. We're seeing companies announce all over the country new plants that are going to be stood up that will create thousands of jobs, including 50,000 in Central New York in the Syracuse area. Then there are a lot of opportunities--

Brian Lehrer: Let me jump in because I know you're making the case. You did it in your earlier answers too for what the Democrats have already done.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, what I'm saying, Brian, is that-- and just one last point. You've got the Inflation Reduction Act. Now, most of the opportunities that flow from these bills haven't been brought to life. In the next Congress, they have to be implemented. There's a real opportunity for us to work with the Biden administration to make sure that the promises that flow from those bills are actually implemented so that it makes a difference in the lives of the people that we represent. That's a big part of the agenda for us moving forward and then, of course, just pushing back aggressively against any overreach from the extreme MAGA Republicans.

Brian Lehrer: What's the legacy of Nancy Pelosi as you see it and what are some things you learned from her about leading the Democratic conference?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, Speaker Pelosi is a leader for the ages. She delivered a speech for the ages last week. She has made such an incredible difference in a wide variety of areas, but most particularly in fighting for children and families. The passage of the Affordable Healthcare Act, which has been transformational, is an incredible part of her legacy. President Obama has said, it wouldn't have happened without Speaker Pelosi. Then, of course, her efforts with respect to combating the climate crisis from the very beginning of her tenure culminating with the Inflation Reduction Act.

In terms of leadership lessons, it's been a great honor to be able to sit at the leadership table with Speaker Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, Jim Clyburn, all iconic and legendary leaders. What Speaker Pelosi has regularly said to us as a caucus is that our diversity is our strength, but our unity is our power. What I found is that we are an incredibly diverse caucus across almost every spectrum possible. We may have different views as to the right approach on a given issue, but always work to try to find the highest common denominator at the end of the day to get things over the finish line and advance the ball to fight the next fight.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take some phone calls for Brooklyn and Queens Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, now headed to be House minority leader, it appears. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or you can tweet a question @BrianLehrer. On what you were just saying about the highest common denominator for common ground, we had Molly Ball, the Time magazine national political reporter, on the show recently. She wrote a biography of Nancy Pelosi as you may know.

One of the stories in there is about during the deliberations over Obamacare. Pelosi wrapped President Obama's knuckles for what she saw as his obsession with bipartisanship. That was always doomed to fail because the Republicans were determined never to play ball with him. Biden talks a good game about bipartisanship too, but we've seen the difficulty in getting Republicans to go along with anything that they even might have supported in the past just because Biden is the president. How much opportunity for common ground do you think there really is?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Yes, it's very interesting. It's an important observation in terms of what happened with the Affordable Care Act because that was an idea that had been put into the public domain, this notion of a market-based exchange in the context of health care by The Heritage Foundation and, of course, first implemented by then-Republican governor of Massachusetts, Mitt Romney.

Brian Lehrer: That's right.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Then when President Obama endeavored to elevate it at the national level, they were against something that they clearly had been for. It was an effort to try to find common ground, but Republicans politically tried to weaponize and did weaponize it against President Obama. The administration's history now says it was the absolute right thing to do and has made a tremendous difference.

What has been interesting, Brian, about the last few years under the leadership of President Biden, who has also leaned into trying to find common ground, is that at least in three specific areas in the Senate, less so in the House, the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, gun safety legislation for the first time in 30 years, as well as the CHIPS and Science Act, those were bipartisan bills in the Senate that also achieved some smaller measure of bipartisan support in the House.

To President Biden's credit, at least in some of the areas of the agenda items that his leadership has gotten over the finish line, we've actually been able to find common ground with the other side to make a difference for everyday Americans. Some Republicans like Rick Scott and others are upset about that because they believe that that facilitated the Democratic overperformance in the most recent midterm elections, but President Biden's efforts have actually borne fruit.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. I think this first call is going to show that there's a search for common ground that's always needed, not only between parties but within the parties. Kevin McCarthy, if he's the speaker, will have his factions to deal with you if you're the minority leader, will have yours. Here is Mimi in Brooklyn. You're on WNYC with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries. Hello, Mimi. Do we have Mimi? Maybe not. How about Bill in Brooklyn? Bill, you're on WNYC, I think. Do we have you?

Bill: Yes, can you hear me?

Brian Lehrer: I can hear you. You're on the air with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries.

Bill: Hi, Brian. Hi, Congressman. Congressman, thank you for your service. In September, Senator Manchin tried to attach language to a budget reconciliation bill that would allow fossil fuel companies to build interstate pipelines while bypassing environmental and local oversight. Congressional Democrats, including those who aren't opposed to this, but you remain silent, which was a bit disappointing and a bit worrying. That time, Senator Manchin withdrew, but now he's back trying to attach the same language to the National Defense Authorization Act. What are you going to do this time? Going forward, can you commit to being the progressive leader on climate that our children need you to be? Thank you very much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you, Bill.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Thank you very much for that question. I was pleased to be part of the effort to help usher the Inflation Reduction Act over the finish line, which, of course, was the most significant climate change legislation ever to be passed by any legislative body in the history of the world that will set our planet on a sustainable path forward, change the trajectory, of course, lower energy costs, and stand up to clean energy economy.

There's work to be done to build upon that with respect to anything that may be going on in the Senate relative to Senator Manchin. It's not an issue that I've been focused on at the moment until it comes over to the House of Representatives. I think in the House, we've been pretty clear, forward-thinking, and visionary as it relates to continuing to confront the climate crisis. I look forward to being part of that effort along with my colleagues in the House moving forward.

Brian Lehrer: All right. If you become minority leader, it'll be you in the House and Chuck Schumer in the Senate. Is it good for the country or is it good for the party? Is it a good look if the Democratic leaders of both Houses of Congress will be from Brooklyn, New York?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, Brooklyn is an incredibly diverse place, Brian, as you know. I happen to represent one of the most diverse districts in the country. People from all over America and all over the world actually come to Brooklyn to help bring to life the American dream. Through that experience, I look forward to being able in whatever position I'm in to continuing to try to bring people together to lean in, to making life better for all Americans.

That includes the heartland of America, rural America, suburban America, urban America, exurban America, small-town America, and Appalachia. We all have challenges that in some cases are unique but in some cases are very common, particularly when you're talking about the big issues around health care and housing and dealing with inflation and making sure that every single American has access to a good-paying job that can provide a comfortable living for themselves and for their families. Those are common values that I hope to be able to elevate as I move forward with my service in the House of Representatives.

Brian Lehrer: As I'm sure you know, the Republicans are already talking about using their majority power to investigate Joe Biden's links to any ill-gotten gains that Hunter Biden may have made. Will you resist that in any way or will you say as minority leader, "Hey, fair question. Go ahead and see what's there," or something in between?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, it's extraordinary to me that having historically underperformed their expectations based on the predictions of either a red wave or red tsunami, Kevin McCarthy had certainly been measuring the drapes along with Elise Stefanik for the last year or so that the reaction to this election is to want to double and triple down on the investigations that Marjorie Taylor Greene and others would like to see instead of trying to figure out how we can work together to lower costs, fight for better-paying jobs, promote safer communities, the things that actually bring the American people around a table of unity as opposed to division.

If there is Republican overreach, I'm pretty confident that all of my colleagues in the House of Representatives are clear. We will push back, push back aggressively, defend the President, defend his administration, defend the work that has been done. I would just hope that my Republican colleagues would break their obsession with the former president, break their obsession with relitigating the 2020 election, and figure out how to actually get things done, work with Democrats to advance progress for everyday Americans.

Brian Lehrer: Is that a challenge for the Democratic Party too? Because as you know, Democrats in New York lost so many House seats. Arguably, it's the main reason the Republicans won a House majority, these four or five losses in New York. Did the Democrats lose touch with too many working-class New Yorkers as Mayor Adams says? The party even lost seats in districts after the redistricting that Biden won easily two years ago.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: There will be 17 or so seats, it looks like, that President Biden won in 2020. That will be held by Republicans in the next Congress. That certainly is a pathway immediately back into the majority in 2024. To your point, Brian, as it relates to what happened here in New York and in other parts of the country where there may have been some underperformance in the congressional races, we need an after-action analysis undertaken by the state Democratic Party to determine what was done well, what was done wrong.

How can we improve the situation moving forward so that we are engaging with every single community, engaging with communities of color, engaging with working-class communities all across the state, including in many parts of Upstate New York that feel as though they've been left behind, engaging with suburban communities who are concerned with public safety issues that the Republican candidate for governor was able to successfully weaponize in certain places? That should be an after-action report that is thorough, is comprehensive, is done expeditiously, is transparent, and that provides a roadmap for how we can all come together and do better as a party in advance of the next election.

Brian Lehrer: Crime is presumably a local issue for local government, state government, not so much a congressional issue, or is it?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, I'm proud of the fact that we as Democrats were able to come together and help advance gun safety legislation for the first time in 30 years that will save lives. It's a strong step in the right direction, but clearly not the only step that needs to be taken. President Biden has said, and I support him in this effort, that we need to find a way to strengthen the relationship between local law enforcement and the community.

Make sure that the community and the police are partners and allies in trying to solve problems, and also making sure that we use other tools that are available to us such as violence interruption programs. Make sure that we have community-based activities for young people so that the destructive temptations of the streets are not overwhelming for them, and they can be channeled into constructive activities so that their natural talent, ability, and brilliance can come to life.

It's going to take a comprehensive approach building upon some of the work that has already been done and an all-hands-on-deck approach in terms of the city, the state, and the federal government. I certainly as a member of Congress representing several communities, parts of Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brownsville, East New York, parts of Canarsie, and the west end of Coney Island that are still struggling with gun violence. I really look forward to leaning in and trying to be a part of making sure we can turn this situation around.

Brian Lehrer: John in the Bronx, you're on WNYC with Hakeem Jeffries, soon to be the next minority leader of the United States House of Representatives, so it seems. Hi, John.

John: Hi, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to speak on your program. What I want to tell my dear Hakeem Jeffries, the incoming minority leader, is simply this. Kevin McCarthy is an election denier. Honorable Hakeem Jeffries promised me that the minority Democrats are going to stop him from becoming the next person to be a speaker of our great nation. He need not to be rewarded for being on the side of election deniers.

The best thing you can do for some of us who stopped working and are killed and voted for the Democrats was that we wanted to defend Democratic principles of this nation. I did not go to vote because of any other things, but I went there to vote for one thing. To defend democracy. If Kevin McCarthy is against democracy, he should not be given the gavel to control the greatest Congress of this world. Please, deny him that opportunity, anything that you can do.

Brian Lehrer: John, thank you for that call. Please call us again. Congressman, is there anything that any Democrat can do to stop the election of Kevin McCarthy as speaker even if you wanted to?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, ultimately, that decision will be in the hands of the House Republican Conference. We'll see if Kevin McCarthy is able to get to the 218 votes necessary. There will not be a single Democrat who will provide him with a single vote in his pursuit of the speakership. I think it's also important, John, and thank you for your passionate for your question, to point out that election deniers across the country, by and large, have gone down in flames in election after election after election.

They've lost governorships, including in places like Pennsylvania and Arizona. They have lost every single competitive swing-state Secretary of State race, which is critically important. Legislative bodies were flipped in places like Michigan and Pennsylvania. Super majorities maintained in places like New York and California. Of course, the Senate remains in Democratic control, will continue to be led by Chuck Schumer, who's done an extraordinary job.

The House of Representatives will be one of the closest minorities in terms of the Democratic caucus in recent history and we've defied expectations. We will continue to hold the extreme MAGA Republicans accountable for their behavior, whether that's the extremism with respect to reproductive freedom. We support a woman's freedom to make her own reproductive healthcare decisions.

We'll continue to elevate that value and push back against their efforts to criminalize abortion care. We will support Social Security and Medicare, push back against Republican extremism. They want to detonate Social Security and Medicare in five years. We certainly will continue to robustly support democracy when we know many of our colleagues on the other side of the aisle apparently don't believe in it anymore.

Brian Lehrer: They said they want to re-evaluate in five years, but Kevin McCarthy, probably the next speaker of the House, says he would remove three Democrats from key committees as you know. Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell from intelligence, they were central to the Trump investigations, and Ilhan Omar from foreign relations because of what McCarthy called her antisemitism and anti-Americanism. Maybe all this is in response to the Democrats not allowing partisan Republicans on the January 6th committee. Did the Democrats set a bad precedent that might come back to bite?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: It's not clear to me what Kevin McCarthy is doing other than following the lead of Marjorie Taylor Greene and some of the more extreme members of the House Freedom Caucus who are clearly demanding a scalp, clearly demanding that Kevin McCarthy follows their lead in terms of some of the extreme things that they'd like to accomplish in exchange for their support for him as speaker. That's quite unfortunate.

I'm going to defend every single member of the House Democratic Caucus in the face of any unwarranted attacks that may be launched by Kevin McCarthy, particularly when we understand that some of the rhetoric that we're seeing from the other side of the aisle and some of the things that are being promised in terms of what House Republicans may do are a result clearly of promises that he is making to some of the extreme parts of the House Republican Conference.

Brian Lehrer: For Omar, he's referring to a number of things that she said. I guess the one that caused the biggest firestorm was in 2019 when she said, "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country." That was taken as a slur against Jews interested in the interests of Israel. That's going to come up again, I guess, as he moves to remove her from the foreign relations committee. Do you defend Congresswoman Omar after saying things like that?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, with respect to the policy, I look forward to continuing to support the special relationship between the United States and Israel. It's a special relationship that is clearly anchored in shared democratic values and shared strategic interests. I have been pro-Israel. I look forward to continuing to be pro-Israel while working to find common ground in the Middle East and certainly push for a two-state solution that allows for the democratic aspirations of the Palestinian people and self-governance to be realized.

In terms of the specific comment, that may be at issue, although it's unclear what Kevin McCarthy is talking about. In the immediate aftermath for that comment, every single member of the House Democratic leadership, Speaker Pelosi, Leader Hoyer, Whip Clyburn, myself as caucus chair, then-Vice Chair Katherine Clark, and the then-Assistant Democratic Speaker Ben Ray Luján, strongly and unequivocally condemned the comments and made it clear that antisemitic tropes have no place in our dialogue at all.

I will continue to make that clear whenever and wherever the issue may come up and certainly have been troubled by the rise and hatred that we've seen, both directed toward the Jewish community. Most recently, the LGBTQ community. Certainly, a rise in racial incidents and hate crimes directed at African Americans and Latinos and immigrants across the South. I think, hopefully, this is a moment where we can move toward tolerance and away from dissent. That will be a space that I will proudly occupy.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go. Thank you very much for taking time out of your very busy schedule in your new role and as you work to build support to be elected to that likely new role to keep coming on with us and talking primarily to the people of your district and the people of New York through this show. As you know, we're also heard nationally on our podcast, but we're a New York show. We look forward to continuing to have you on many, many more times as you presumably assume this new role. Major congratulations, Congressman. Good luck and, of course, we'll keep talking.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, thank you, Brian. It's always a pleasure to be with you and your listeners. Happy Thanksgiving to all.

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