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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC, good morning everyone. Brooklyn and Queens congressman, Hakeem Jeffries, the House Democratic Caucus Chair will join me in just a minute on this Thursday when the House is hoping to finally take its vote by the end of the week on the $1.9 trillion COVID relief bill. If you're one of the millions of Americans holding your breath, not knowing if your extended unemployment or your eviction moratorium, or other crucial benefits will expire next month, you know this too well.

As they discussed on Morning Edition today, the endgame debate around the bill is focusing largely on more permanent progressive economics that the Democrats have in there too. For Republicans like Mitch McConnell, it's an accusation.

Mitch McConnell: It was last March, remember, when a senior House Democrat called this disaster, quote, a tremendous opportunity to restructure things to fit our vision.

Brian Lehrer: For Democrats like House Appropriations Committee Chair Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut, it's an opportunity.

Rosa DeLauro: We are not going back to normal, but where do we go for the future? Where do we try to make enduring change?

Brian Lehrer: Maybe you heard both of those clips and Kelsey Snell's NPR piece this morning, DeLauro was talking about a $300 a month child allowance that will go to most American families for the second half of this year, something the piece said DeLauro has wanted Congress to pass for 18 years and hopes will become permanent. Let's talk about that and more with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries representing the 8th congressional district in New York, which is much of Brooklyn and a little bit of Queens. He is a party leader as Chair of the House Democratic Caucus. Congressman, always great to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Good morning, Brian. Great to be on.

Brian Lehrer: Can we start on this notion of how much Democrats are using the COVID relief bill to enact permanent economic reforms? As the NPR piece framed it, Republicans are using that as a criticism but Democrats like Rosa DeLauro don't really deny it. What would you say about that?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, it's a hollow criticism because the Republicans understand that the American Rescue Plan is broadly supported by the American people, including a pretty robust majority of Republicans, according to recent public opinion surveys. That's because the American people understand that the COVID-19 pandemic is a once-in-a-century crisis and so it requires a once-in-a-century comprehensive, continuing, and compassionate congressional response. It's also a public health crisis and an economic crisis.

Now, on the public health side, that means we've got to make sure that we continue to stand up robust testing, tracing, treatment, and most importantly, vaccinations that can be delivered in a safe and effective fashion for every single American. We include resources in the American Rescue Plan to do it, but at the same period of time, we also have to address the economic side of the crisis. There's been so much economic pain and suffering, unemployment, food insecurity, housing concerns that leave many on the brink of homelessness, poverty issues have been exacerbated, and so I think it would be irresponsible for us not to address the economic aspects of the crisis.

Last point I'll make on this, Brian, and I think this is what Chairwoman Rosa DeLauro was getting at. Joe Biden ran on one broad theme, build back better. He didn't misrepresent his perspective to the American people. He articulated it in three clear words, that we're going to deal with this pandemic, and build back better. That doesn't mean a return to normalcy because the pandemic exposed, underlying disparity issues that exist broadly across American society, not just in urban America, but in rural America, small-town America, and Appalachia as well and so I think everything that's being done is consistent with that perspective.

Brian Lehrer: The pandemic, I think brought it to light for more Americans who were doing okay but weren't thinking about these ongoing disparities. Like the Dow hit another record high yesterday, around 32,000. While this morning, we see that another 700,000 I think the number was, Americans have filed for unemployment. These are more than just pandemic bubbles, right?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: That's correct and we can't just allow for a situation in American society where the investor class is thriving and the working class is suffering. I don't think the American people gave Democrats a majority in the House and Senate and sent Joe Biden and Kamala Harris to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue to return to normal when the reality is that normal men, half the American people reported that they couldn't afford a sudden unexpected $400 expense. This was prior to the COVID-19 pandemic. We're not interested in going back to that situation because that's not America. That's a broken American dream.

Brian Lehrer: 730,000 is the number, I just confirmed it, released this morning, new unemployment claims filed in the country last week and that's an improvement over the week before, so that's some of where we are. I saw your op-ed, well, let me invite callers in here before we get into that. Listeners, your questions for Congressman Hakeem Jeffries welcome here on what's temporary, and what's permanent, and what should be in the COVID relief bill or anything else relevant to him at 646-435-7280. Your calls for Congressman Hakeem Jeffries at 646-435-7280 or tweet a question @BrianLehrer.

I saw your op-ed in the daily news about the housing safety net in this respect, like that most families who qualify for Section 8 Housing vouchers don't actually get them because of lack of funding. Can you describe how that works?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Yes, so I was proud to have co-authored that op-ed with Rachel Fee, who's one of the city's leading thinkers, as relates to affordable housing issues, and one of those people who the nation often looks to in terms of addressing these challenges. We understand that the federal government has been out of the affordable housing business largely since the Reagan administration and there are programs that exist including the Section 8 rental assistance program that is designed to provide assistance to those Americans who don't have the economic means to sustain themselves in safe and decent housing, but the eligibility for the program greatly exceeds the availability.

One of the things that we think should happen, in addition to just fully funding it on a year to year basis, which would be a meaningful step, is to perhaps consider moving it to the mandatory side of the federal government, which is where programs like Social Security and Medicare reside. If in fact, that is to happen it's a recognition that housing is a right, that we believe should be fully brought to life here in the United States of America.

One could argue that safe and decent, affordable housing is foundational to being able to provide for yourself and for your families. That's one of the ideas that we think would be important for us to take a look at beyond the COVID-19 bill, as we further explore this concept of building back better.

Brian Lehrer: Because this is not in the COVID-19 relief bill, this full funding for people who are eligible based on their income for Section 8 Housing vouchers, so are you in effect lobbying the president to do something about this?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, I look forward to having those conversations with the Biden administration and Secretary of HUD, Marcia Fudge, of course, was a former colleague of ours in the House of Representatives. I had the chance to speak briefly with her a few days ago and we're excited about the prospect of working with her, the Biden administration, and of course, the President and the Vice President and so I think these are discussions that are going to take place over the next few months.

Once we crush the virus and provide this Direct Relief to everyday Americans who are struggling through the pandemic and get to a better place, which I believe we will get to sooner rather than later with the leadership of the President, one of the things that he's talked about is moving from relief, that's the mode that we're in right now, to revitalization. We'll have to go through revitalization at some point, this summer or in the fall and so I thought it was important to begin to put ideas into the public domain related to housing because you know, Brian, the affordable housing crisis remains perhaps the most pressing challenge that our communities confront in New York City, dealing with the intense gentrification and displacement.

Brian Lehrer: Jordan in the Bronx, you're on WNYC with Brooklyn and Queens congressman, Hakeem Jeffries. Hi, Jordan.

Jordan: Hi, guys. Good morning, Congressman. How are you today?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Good. How are you?

Jordan: Good. I just wanted to let you know, Congressman, I've been on unemployment benefits since April of last year when the pandemic started. To be quite honest with you, the $400 is okay, but it's not good enough. It should be back to $600 in retroactive from last September when the Congress was, had complete inaction on this issue. Also, I would like to see $2,000 stimulus checks being monthly and retroactive from last year. No one asked for this pandemic and no one asked for people's jobs being lost. Also, I have contacted my congressman, Jamal Ballman, about this, to at least entertain that, but I feel like no one else in the Senate is listening from Schumer and Joe Biden's office.

Brian Lehrer: Jordan, thank you very much. Just for our listeners' point of reference, when he talks about the $400 extended unemployment benefit, that's what's in this new bill, but what it replaces is the expired $600 additional unemployment benefit weekly that was in the original COVID relief bill that's no longer there. This benefit returns but less, so Congressman, what would you say to Jordan on any of his points?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, Jordan certainly raised an issue that has been on the minds of us as House Democrats since the original expiration of that $600 benefit took place in August. Now, it was restored in part in the December legislation, Brian, but the enhanced benefit was only $300 that expires on March 14th. We're going to raise it from $300 per week to $400.

My personal preference, of course, would have been to increase it back to $600 per week as an enhanced benefit to the existing unemployment, but we were operating within the framework of the $1.9 trillion plan submitted by the administration. That's the range by which we had to fit everything in, in order to comply with some of the reconciliation requirements, which is necessary to be able to get the bill through the Senate with 50 votes plus the vice president, as opposed to 60 votes, which would have required 10 Senate Republicans who by and large have expressed continued obstruction as it relates to the Biden administration on a whole range of issues that we find unacceptable as part of their demands be supportive of any relief package.

We're going to continue to work as hard as we can to sustain the relief that we've provided across the board. We are adding an additional $25 billion in housing assistance, largely for renters who have been struggling. We of course are providing 15% enhancement to the food benefit through the EBT program and continuing that through those as well because we recognize that there that there's still a lot that needs to happen, but we are operating under the constraints of reconciliation.

Brian Lehrer: To his point about an ongoing monthly stimulus or relief check, not just the one time, here's another clip of Congresswoman DeLauro from Morning Edition in which she talks about the percentages of children in poverty who she says would be lifted out of it if this childcare allowance that she's got temporarily in the COVID relief bill were to become permanent.

Rosa DeLauro: You look at the statistics, looking at black children, over 50% would be lifted out of poverty. Hispanic children, 40%, Native American children, 61.5%, Asian American Pacific Islander children, about 38%, white children up to 40%.

Brian Lehrer: You make similar claims for if the housing vouchers were fully funded for people who are eligible for them. My question is, do you see the $300 a month child allowance just a six-month program in this bill, or any of these other provisions as a step towards something like a more permanent universal basic income provided by the federal government?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, I think with respect to the application of the childcare allowance or the child tax credit, perhaps more appropriately said, because it is facilitated through the tax code. What we want to do is instead of being able to claim it when you file your taxes once a year, it will be allocated on a monthly basis so that it actually can provide sustained assistance.

I think the first step that we'll need to take, after hopefully implementing it in the American Rescue Plan, is making it permanent when we enact the fiscal year spending agreement later on in the fall. That will be a fight. It will require 10 Republicans to do it in joining the 50 Democrats in the Senate because that cannot be done on a permanent basis through reconciliation, as I understand it, but it is part of a recognition of two things. One, this is the wealthiest country in the history of the world. We should not allow a single child to be living in poverty in the United States of America. Two, we've got to do things differently in the post-pandemic environment.

I don't know that the support exists for a universal basic income model, but I can certainly say that the direct payment survival checks have been broadly accepted by the American people as the type of necessary expenditures of their taxpayer dollars to even the playing field. It's a discussion that we can pursue, but the better thing I think at this moment beyond providing the comprehensive relief is supercharging the economy in a way that every American who's eligible to work can work on a living wage, make a comfortable living, provide for themselves and their families. That's the American dream that we have to bring to life.

Brian Lehrer: Amanda. on theUpper East Side, you're on WNYC with Congressman Hakeem Jeffries. Hi, Amanda.

Amanda: Hi, good morning. Thank you so much for taking my call. I just want to preface my statement by saying that I believe personally that if there's ever a time to increase the national debt, it is to help the people who are struggling greatly in this time and who have been struggling for a period of time. As you said, we're a rich country and there's really no excuse for people to be struggling as much as they are.

That said, and putting aside the fact that the Republicans didn't really care about the national debt while Trump was in office, I do recognize, and I want you to address the fact that our debt is astronomical and it is growing astronomically. I do think that even though I don't typically agree with Republican talking points, that there is a valid concern to increasing the debt. How do you respond in particular to that?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Thank you for raising that point. I do think that there will be a time and place to have that conversation about the national debt issues and the deficit issues. I will point out that it's generally been the case going back to John F. Kennedy's tenure, that the economy has thrived under Democratic presidents, that and deficits have been brought under control under Democratic presidencies.

In fact, the debt or the deficit was brought into surplus by President Bill Clinton toward the end of his tenure. Barack Obama never gets credit for the fact that he reduced the deficit during his presidency by a trillion dollars, yet that's never talked about. We've seen the Republicans, as you correctly pointed out, expand and explode the debt by $2 trillion when they passed the GOP tax scam in 2017, where 83% of the benefits went to the wealthiest 1% as part of an effort to subsidize the lifestyles of the rich and shameless. That to me is extraordinary.

As you also pointed out correctly, now is the time for us to go big because the scope of the problem and the devastation is huge. That's just not the Democratic perspective, that is a broadly held perspective. The Chamber of Commerce, which is a right-leaning organization, supports the American Rescue Plan. The Business Roundtable, which is made up of some of the nation's leading, corporate figures supports the American Rescue Plan. Moody's and Goldman Sachs, and other institutions, more than 150 CEOs I believe just recently wrote to Congress supporting the Rescue Plan, including Steve Schwarzman, who's one of the largest wealthiest men in the world and one of the largest Republican donors and was a big donor to Donald Trump. They all support the American Rescue Plan because they realize that it is decisively needed at this moment.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a point past which it becomes a danger to the future? Is there a number or percent? I think in fairness when you say Obama reduced the deficit by a trillion dollars, that was just the rate of growth of the national debt, and true that the Trump administration borrowed a drunken real estate mogul, at a much greater rate than the Obama administration, but nevertheless, it didn't go down during Obama, but is there a number past which it becomes a concern?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Right. The debt didn't go down during President Obama's administration, but he took a $1.5 trillion deficit and lowered it to 500 billion. That's a significant accomplishment. If we continue to do that on a going-forward basis, we'll be in a much better situation, but to your point, Brian, I think that what we need to do is if we can revive and supercharge the economy and explode economic growth, the figure that most economists have indicated we should be most concerned about is the rate of economic growth and productivity as it compares to the debt.

If we expand our economic growth and productivity by supercharging the economy in some of the ways that I think the Biden administration will lean into over the next few months, expanding the presence of good-paying American jobs, which increases consumer demand that then gets poured back into the economy and leads to explosive growth, then our economic outlook for the future will be in a much better position. Yes, it's a reasonable conversation to have, but I think it has to be viewed through the lens of how do you explode the economy in a way that brings the debt ratio back into a more tenable place.

Brian Lehrer: So interesting because the Republican approach is usually to cut taxes and say that's going to expand the economy faster than what the government is giving up in revenue, and Democrats like yourself say no it's to invest, even if that means borrowing for the moment, into workers rather than the investor class and owner class, and that's going to expand the economy faster than what the government is borrowing. We will see since some version of this bill is going to pass if that comes to pass. We've got a number of very interesting, additional callers waiting for Congressman Jeffries, and we'll get to them and more of him right after this.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC with Brooklyn and Queens congressman and Chair of the House Democratic Caucus, Hakeem Jeffries. Nacio in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC. Hi, Nacio.

Nacio: Hello. My question is about voter suppression and the tax on the integrity of the election. Now that Republicans are concerned about the integrity and people of color have been concerned about suppression for quite a while, are there any plans to define in law what constitutes suppression of the vote and attacks against the integrity, and can the Congress finally define or institute, a procedure for punishing people provided by the 14th Amendment, which is a loss of registration in the House for people who do violate those rights and attack the integrity of the vote?

Brian Lehrer: Great question. Congressman Jeffries?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Well, thank you so much for that question. We have seen voter suppression efforts have intensified since the election of Barack Obama. Perhaps some will think that's a coincidence, but it's a direct timeframe from when we started to see voter suppression bills being introduced, and then subsequent to the Tea Party election of 2010, implemented into law.

The Supreme Court accelerated that dynamic in 2013 when they struck a blow against the Section 5 preclearance provision of the Voting Rights Act, which required that many states that have a history of voter suppression, and counties in other parts of the country including Brooklyn, the Bronx, and Manhattan, had to seek pre-clearance before making any changes to voting laws. When that provision was struck down by the Supreme Court in a 5-4 decision, it opened up the flood gates as it relates to the voter suppression efforts that we're now seeing across the country.

The most meaningful thing that Congress can do is to revive the portions of the Voting Rights Act that were struck down and we have a legislative bill to do just that. It's the John Robert Lewis Voting Rights Act. We will pass it in the House of Representatives, and then send it over to the Senate where hopefully, we can get it done but we need to have a series of hearings to explore these voter suppression efforts in the way that you described, which is part of what the Supreme Court has indicated is necessary in order for any bill that we pass to withstand constitutional muster.

Now we know we've got a 6-3 conservative court majority, and so we want to be as careful as we can in putting forth the best possible bill to deal with the dramatic explosion of voter suppression efforts that may only intensify in the aftermath of Joe Biden's election and the surprise wins in Georgia giving Democrats the majority.

Brian Lehrer: Nacio, thanks for that question. Call us again. Jowanza in Brooklyn, you're on WNYC with Congressman Jeffries. Hi Jowanza.

Jowanza: Hi, good morning, Brian, and good morning, Congressman. I just had a quick question going back to your comments about Section 8, just focus specifically on New York State for a moment. There was an equivalent bill on the Housing Access Voucher Program carried by State Senator Brian Kavanagh, that would basically create a section-like voucher for the State of New York for people experiencing homelessness and housing insecurity.

It has a sticker cost of about $500 million a year estimated but there's the Invest In Our New York Act that can generate $50 billion through progressive increases in taxes against millionaires and billionaires, namely. I'm wondering if you know about the Housing Access Voucher Program and do you think that taxing the rich in New York State so that we can fund these kinds of critical needs for New Yorkers if that's the priority for the budget this year? Thank you very much.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you. Do you know about that bill, you used to be in the state legislature?

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: I don't know about that particular piece of legislation. I do know State Senator Brian Kavanagh well. He's a tremendous advocate for affordable housing. We served together in the Assembly, In fact, came in the same class of 2006. With respect to the state budget issues, I'm not familiar enough with the details of the revenue splits and things of that nature other than to say, we have been focused in the American Rescue Plan and trying to get New York City and New York State the relief and assistance that it needs in order to be able to provide for the residents that I serve and the 18 and 19 million people throughout the state.

One of the big issues that we have been unsuccessful in achieving up until this point was meaningful state and local stabilization assistance, but in the American Rescue Plan, we've got $350 billion. $15 billion or so will be given to New York State if we can hold the formula, $12.6 billion directly related to budgetary relief. Then another $2.5 to $3 billion that we're going to be able to provide in unexpected Medicaid reimbursement, which is an important part of the state budget.

The governor has said he needs around $15 billion to be able to close the budget gap this year. In the next fiscal year, I believe we're going to be able to deliver that and billions more to New York City just for budget relief. Hopefully, that is going to be able to provide the city and the state with the means to do what's necessary in dealing with housing, food insecurity, public health, education, public transportation, and the provision of the public good.

Brian Lehrer: Sam in the Financial District. You're on WNYC with Congressman Jeffries. Hi Sam.

Sam: Hi Congressman. Thank you. As a small business owner in New York, I've had direct experience with the PPP and the stimulus. Previously, I considered myself more of a fiscal conservative. I just wanted to share my experience seeing how this stimulus has actually impacted our business. We received approximately half a million dollars in funding through the PPP. It's allowed me not only to keep my businesses open but also to actually open a new location for our business this week in Brooklyn.

I think it's just a helpful example for listeners to understand how when we talk about hundreds of billions or even trillions of dollars, how it actually makes a difference on the ground and helps us keep dozens of people employed and actually hire new people, continue to work with local vendors, and just keep helping the economy going. I hope that additional stimulus continues to pass because it's made a tremendous difference not only for me, but I can see how it's actually helping the economy continue to grow through this time. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Sam, thank you very much. What a great testimonial. You're hoping that a lot of people like him have those experiences or having those experiences around the country to help shore up support for what the Republicans are trying to make controversial.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Certainly. Thanks, Sam, for sharing that experience and we've really leaned into the notion of making sure that we support our small businesses, women and minority-owned businesses, family-owned businesses, small entrepreneurs, which are really the heart and soul of the economy but have never really gotten the credit for the vitally important role small businesses play in our economic fabric in the city, in the state, and across the country.

In this American Rescue Plan, I think we're going to include in another $50 billion in assistance for the Paycheck Protection Program, which started off a little rocky in terms of its implementation, but we were standing up a new program. Over time, I think we've been able to right-size it, target the assistance to the businesses like Sam's that actually needed the most, and allow them both to survive and hopefully thrive as we move forward.

Brian Lehrer: I know you got to go in a minute. Let me ask you one quick political question. I'm just curious if you are going to or maybe you have already and I haven't seen it, endorse in the mayoral race. Yours is one of those endorsements that might actually mean something.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Brian, I appreciate you saying that. It may mean something to my mom and dad. I'm not sure how much it means beyond that. I certainly have been in conversation with several of the mayoral candidates and also talked to my colleagues in the House, Grace Meng, Greg Meeks, Nydia Velázquez, Yvette Clarke, often about the city that we love and represent and how we can make sure that whoever is going to serve in City Hall over these next four years during such a critical time for the health and survival of New York City is the right person for the job.

I haven't come to any conclusion yet because we've been focused so intensively on the American Rescue Plan, but I certainly do plan to take a look at the mayoral field once we can get this bill signed into law and see what happens. The final thing I'd say though, Brian, is never count out New York City because of the resilience of the people. Yes, mayors matter but mayors come and mayors go, but the people remain.

We've been counted out before. We were counted out during the fiscal crisis of the '1970s, we came back. We were counted out during the crack cocaine epidemic, which I lived through, we came back. Counted out during September 11th, counted out during the great recession, counted out during Superstorm Sandy. Now they want to count us out during the pandemic, but we'll come back just like we have in those previous times because of the resilience of our people.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Hakeem Jeffries. We always appreciate it. Thanks so much, Congressman.

Congressman Hakeem Jeffries: Thanks so much, Brian.

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