Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. The US Senate worked over the weekend. They didn't usually work weekends any time of year, neverminded in August. They were happy to record a bipartisan vote in favor of moving forward on the bipartisan infrastructure bill. It got close to 70 votes in the 50/50 chamber. Therefore more than the 60 votes needed to avoid a filibuster. There is still negotiating to be done on details of the bill in the Senate.

It could still break down over details of what's in and what's out, but it's expected that they'll work enough of that through and pass the bill in the next day or so. The bill may actually face a tougher time, even though it comes from the White House and from Democrats in general, tougher time in the house where many Republicans will probably vote no, and some progressive Democrats might too. Here's what New York City Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez said on July 12th.

Alexandria Ocasio Cortez: I believe that the progressive caucus is rather United in the fact that we will not support bipartisan legislation without a reconciliation bill. One that takes bold and large action on climate drawing down carbon emissions, but also job creation and increasing equity and resilience for impacted communities, particularly frontline communities. We've made that very clear and that a bipartisan agreement will not pass unless we have a reconciliation bill that also passes.

That is where we've drawn a strong line and I believe that speaker Pelosi, the White House, and majority leader, Chuck Schumer have taken that threat quite seriously. They know that we fully intend on acting out on that if a reconciliation bill does not come to the floor of the house.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Ocasio Cortez on July 12th, the reconciliation bill as she referred to it three times as expensive as the physical infrastructure bill refers to president Biden's human infrastructure bill. Childcare, home health aids for elder care and decent wages for those aids free community college, and more. Progressive Democrats worry that without the leverage of the popular physical infrastructure bill, the less controversial bill, the human infrastructure one will be easier to ignore or to kill, and also the one bi-partisan bill might leave Americans with a false impression that the Senate is a functional place and doesn't need to have a filibuster abolition vote.

With us now is a leading proponent in the house of voting yes on the physical infrastructure bill, Congressman Josh Gottheimer from Northern New Jersey, a co-chair of the bipartisan problem solvers caucus in the house. Hi, congressman, always good to have you welcome back to WNYC.

Josh Gottheimer: Thanks, Brian. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Brian Lehrer: Is there a lot to like, first of all, in the physical infrastructure bill for listeners who don't know the details very well, sometimes you say roads and bridges and it seems kind of boring.

Josh Gottheimer: Well, we're on the verge of a, as you pointed out a major win for New Jersey and for the tri-state area and for the country. There's a reason why the White House is so firmly behind this as well as Democrats and Republicans in the house and the Senate because this is a once-in-a-century investment in physical infrastructure. The tunnels like the gateway tunnel between New York and New Jersey, which is our key train tunnel. That's 113 years old. There's resources in there for that.

For roads, for bridges, for rail, for public transit, for broadband for those who are unconnected. On the climate side, it is significant investment for the electric grid upgrades and EV chargers, and resiliency. Up and down, this is something that is not just great for our communities, but in terms of the investment in the crumbling infrastructure, where in Jersey, a third of our bridges are considered unsafe. We've got the third-worst roads in the country.

The worst on-time public transit system in the country, all in desperate need of investment. Then you add to that, the jobs that it'll create, 2 million jobs a year over the next decade. These are great hard for hardworking men and women of labor great jobs for our community in our country. This is a tremendous win and something that's essential we get done and the fact that it's bipartisan, as you pointed out. You've got Democrats and Republicans in the house and the Senate showing that we can cover that we can work together and come together. I think adds an additional huge benefit as part of this legislation.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for a New Jersey democratic Congressman Josh Gottheimer, especially on the infrastructure bill, if you want him and other members of your delegation to vote yes or anything else relevant to Congress that you want to ask. (646) 435-7280. Democrats do you support the physical infrastructure bill without the human infrastructure one coming first or at the same time or anything else you want to say or ask about this Democrats, Republicans, anyone (646) 435-7280 or tweet @BrianLehrer. What do you say to the Progressive's and we played the clip of AOC who worry, first of all, about giving away leverage for the human infrastructure bill by passing this along?

Josh Gottheimer: Well, frankly, I think, and what I've been calling for is once the Senate votes on this, which I'm hoping as you pointed out that it will be tomorrow at some that we bring it immediately to the house and vote on it and we get it passed. It's rare that you get a bipartisan win that you're able to get across the finish line especially when you're looking at the filibuster and as you know you need to get 60 senators in the Senate.

We have a 50 seat majority to get a piece of legislation passed like this. The fact that we would do anything to hold up investing in our country as quickly as possible and getting those jobs moving and starting to get our roads and our bridges and our rail and tunnels built to me makes no sense whatsoever. It doesn't mean at all that we also shouldn't immediately start considering a reconciliation package. There is plenty that the president has proposed that I agree with, but as you know we haven't seen any specifics yet, no details of what the bill would look like.

It's a little hard to say, whether you support or don't support something you haven't seen, but the ideas behind it, some of the programs behind it, in investing in early childhood education is key, and doing more on climate is essential. I'm a big proponent of reinstating the state-level tax deduction or SALT, which is critical to making life more affordable for people in Northern New Jersey, where our taxes are high, and we're trying to fight to get them down and make life more affordable when you've got medium property taxes in Bergen county, which are represented over $15,000.

So you're talking about a firefighter and a teacher together their taxes have gone up because of the SALT cap in 2017, which the red states did to us. Getting things to be more affordable while making these critical investments are key. It's just the question of the specifics and the levels. That's what many of us believe is let's get this win done. This is a huge win for the country once in a century. Why would you hold that up? You shouldn't hold any other piece of legislation hostage for another, and then let's consider it as we should on the merits, all of the pieces of it, which I strongly support.

Brian Lehrer: Martin in West Windsor you're on WNYC with Congressman Gottheimer. Hi, Martin.

Martin: Well, Brian Long time listener, and I've never gone through before.

Brian Lehrer: Glad you're on, Martin.

Martin: I would say, I agree with representative Gottheimer Brian, everything, I consider myself a progressive but I think the progressive would be shooting them then the Democrats would be shooting themselves in the foot to not let this pass in the house. I think it gives us a lot that we need. I go for the other one afterwards, but I would definitely get this through because if it doesn't pass, the Republicans are going to save the president Biden didn't do anything.

Brian Lehrer: Martin. Thank you very much and call us again. Well, what's the reason for not putting them through at the same time? Is it that you think the Republicans would walk away from the bipartisan infrastructure bill?

Josh Gottheimer: Well, what folks should realize is the actual reconciliation package is not written yet. It probably will take till at least October or November to get to finish up drafting it. Whatever it looks like. That's why I said that there is no reconciliation bill to vote on right now because there isn't a bill. There are ideas that-

Brian Lehrer: That's a choice, right? That's a choice to take it in this order.

Josh Gottheimer: Well, it's a choice to say, so some are arguing as you just pointed out that some folks are saying, let's wait, let's hold the infrastructure package. Let's not despite the 2 million jobs a year, despite this critical investment and the fact that was third-worst roads in the country of Jersey. Let's not start fixing that. Let's wait and hope that in November we finished and are able to pass something else and then we'll consider this package that the president has said is critical to the country and that he's fully behind and that he himself said, let's go vote on and not hold up.

He went out to the Rose Garden and made that point a month or so ago and why would you not take a once-in-a-century huge win for the country and get that done? Why would you link these pieces of legislation and say that we're going to hold it hostage until this other one is complete? We should do what we do always, we should consider each piece of legislation as it comes up and take the huge win now as quickly as possible, you never know what could happen months from now.

In Washington, things change every day, let's take this victory for the country, and for our economy, and this in critical investment and get it done. China last year, spent $3.5 trillion on infrastructure outside of China, in other countries. We're still having trouble for decades now doing anything to invest in our crumbling roads, bridges, rails, and tunnels, including that 113-year-old tunnel between New York and New Jersey, the gateway tunnel project that we have to get going. Why would we mess with it and not just get this done?

Again, then we, of course, should have a very good discussion and debate and consideration of the reconciliation package, much of which is in there of areas that I think are critically important but it's a question of well, what are we investing, how much and how will it affect Jersey? What's it going to do to taxes for people in New Jersey? What's it going to do for SALT and is it going to be reinstated or not? There's some real questions that we have to address in that process.

Brian Lehrer: Thanks. Sam in Manhattan wants to follow up on what you just ended that answer with Sam you're on WNYC, hello.

Sam: Yes, thanks, Brian. I'm a longtime listener, a first-time caller, representing Gottheimer, you and the problem solvers caucus, wrote a letter to Nancy Pelosi, really trying to pump the brakes on a lot of the momentum on the reconciliation bill, writing a letter pointing to scare tactics like rising inflation, national debt and the expense of the debt. When a reconciliation bill comes up for a vote, will you stand in the way of it as this letter portends to do, or will you support the real huge steps that we need to take to combat climate change, which are not in the infrastructure bill that the bipartisan infrastructure bill that's being considered?

Josh Gottheimer: Well, I appreciate that question, just two small corrections there. One, the letter says anything but what you say is it's not pumping any brakes, it's actually accelerating it. Saying that when on average Jersey drivers paying $713 a year to fix the vehicle, because of the potholes, we can't wait. Actually, we need to vote on the bipartisan structure package as soon as the Senate votes on it, because holding it up for months, would make no sense at all.

Secondly, I'm not for holding that up at all, what I've said is, then we should just make sure we get as many details as possible on reconciliation and the budget resolution, which is the first part of that to understand. This was important for me as somebody who represents northern New Jersey, how's it going to benefit Jersey, how's it going to affect Jersey, which is my job to fight for the people I represent in northern New Jersey. The other piece that you just pointed out about climate and I point you to the bill, and it's on my website now, and I'm sure others have the bipartisan Instructure package.

It actually includes huge investments for addressing climate, including resiliency, EV chargers, the electric grid, and every aspect of building physical infrastructure has to take into account impact on climate and doing it in a way that is actually beneficial to addressing the climate. It's something that many of us, who were huge proponents of addressing climate fought very hard for. I just want to make sure that people understand.

Brian Lehrer: Well, you're hanging it in that answer on climate but I'm looking at this letter that you and another moderate Democrat in the house, Jared Golden from Maine, I believe, spearheaded and it says in part separately, this is a letter to Speaker Pelosi. As we begin the reconciliation process, we have concerns about the specific components of that potential package. These specifics are crucial, particularly given the combined threat of rising inflation, national debt, and the trillions recently and appropriately allocated to the COVID-19 emergency.

It sounds like your central concern actually is not whether that bill will be environmental enough, it's whether the bill will be too expensive for the national debt, which is generally a more republican concern right now, especially considering that they didn't care about the national debt when Trump was cutting taxes on wealthier individuals.

Josh Gottheimer: Well, Lehrer, the letter is the specific parts, which are critical to me when I say the specifics, I mean, all of the pieces of all the legislation. In addition, of course, I'm concerned about impact on the debt and impact on inflation, which, if you're a consumer, especially are harder press families, the fact that consumer goods prices are up on the shelf, are they talking about cereal or toilet paper, that is a real pocketbook issue for families.

I'm very concerned about how that's going to affect our families across New Jersey and in my district, and of course in the country. I think to not take those things into account and not take inflationary impact into account is irresponsible. I'm not somebody who thinks we shouldn't pay any attention to the debt if interest rates go up, and the Fed has to actually counter inflation with increasing interest rates, that will have a huge impact on families, both on out of pocket and on their day to day expenditures.

To not understand the importance of how those pieces are all connected, I think, leaves out a really critical aspect of how this could affect hardworking families and lower-income families in my district and across the country.

Brian Lehrer: There are, of course, a lot of Democrats who consider it an investment that's going to help the economy and help growth that would outrun inflation in the long run, if there's good childcare.

Josh Gottheimer: Good point is the infrastructure, yes.

Brian Lehrer: Well, that the human infrastructure to they would say that if there's good childcare, if older people are being taken care of by age who get paid decently, if there's free community college, that those are all investments in a functional country that will come back in economic gain in terms of those workers, for example, being able to buy things. There's an economy debate, also around that spending, right?

Josh Gottheimer: Sure, I think it's commonly accepted at this point, though, by economists across the board that you have to be very careful about inflation overall and that where is physical infrastructure, the ROI is clear in the short term, overall, we just need to be mindful of what we're facing right now as a country, in terms of inflation and the impact on hardworking families.

As I said, Brian, early on, if you ask me, do I support a lot of these policies that we're talking about 100%. I believe in making college more affordable, I believe in investing in early childhood education. It's critically important, it's something I've been on the record about, I think that we should look at expanding Medicare for dental and vision and hearing something that I've supported legislation, and I'm on legislation right now and of course, on climate.

All I'm saying is, we need to make sure we understand all the specifics with the investment, the impact is proposed specifically on my district, and of course, what revenue you're talking about as well, which also matters a lot for hardworking families in my district. If you're a teacher, as I said before and the firefighter living in Jersey is expensive and my goal is also to make sure you can stay in Jersey and retire in Jersey and make sure you can be there be live near your family.

All those things have to come into account and that's why this specific sound will be very clear. I think we all as a country need to see these specifics before we jam anything think through. That's what our letter was, let's very careful about the specifics.

Brian Lehrer: Before we run out of time, we're going to squeeze one more caller in here, Travis in Glen Cove, who I think has a question about the Senate compromise physical infrastructure bill, Travis, we have about 30 seconds for you. Hi, there.

Travis: Hey, thanks for having me. Quick question. The original proposition was about 2.6 billion, the new ones about 550 billion, one of the areas that I absolutely noticed was that for pollution cleanup, it went from 16 billion to 21 billion. That's the only area we actually increase in the compromise. Now that pollution cleanup, while it sounds good on paper, should be the responsibility of the corporations that did the pollution in the first place, not the taxpayer. Why is this the only area where we saw an increase?

Brian Lehrer: Travis, thank you. Do you know the specific answer to that question, Congressman?

Josh Gottheimer: No and frankly I'm not sure that's true in terms of there's different areas that during, obviously, all the negotiations, different things went up or down in part of the back and forth is, as always happens when you're trying to get to a good bipartisan agreement, which by the way, the president in his inaugural address, talked quite a bit about the importance of civility and us working together as Democrats or Republicans in this country, which I think after what we've been through the last four years we desperately need.

I think more investment in Superfund cleanups and pollution and by the way, this includes lead in the drinking water which there's a significant historic investment in cleaning up our pipes which in New Jersey is a very big issue with the lead in the water and affects so many children and so many families at school and at home.

Brian Lehrer: 10 seconds.

Josh Gottheimer: That's why this thing is such a big deal and why we need to get this done. Then we can, of course, consider other legislation, but I'm eager to get this done.

Brian Lehrer: Democratic congressman Josh Gottheimer, from Northern New Jersey, a co-chair of the bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus. Thanks so much. We always appreciate it.

Josh Gottheimer: Thanks, Brian. Take care.

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