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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We haven't really talked yet on this show about the new speaker of the House, Mike Johnson of Louisiana. One thing that jumped out at me from his acceptance speech on Wednesday, and I don't know if this has got a lot of attention, was that he leaned into being what you might call a creationist and the idea that the country was founded to be kind of a religious state. He emphasized the point when giving his take on the most famous line in the Declaration of Independence, which he described as our creed.

Mike Johnson: What is our creed? We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. Not born equal, created equal.

Brian Lehrer: He was making the point that God created people. We weren't just born equal, we were created equal. He didn't lean into the equal part of that. He leaned into the created part of that as he was making a point in some other lines that God called him to be speaker and God decided that everyone else in Congress was destined to be there too and the country was founded on mixing church and state. It's no surprise that he holds very conservative Christian political positions as well like he voted for a federal cap on when abortions could be performed rather than leave it to the states.

The big thing about Mike Johnson that you probably have heard is that he was an architect of the election denial movement in Congress. The New York Times article on him yesterday said he was a key architect of his party's objections to certifying President Biden's victory, and that he didn't just mouth support for the big lie. He went so far as to collect signatures for a legal brief that tried to throw out the results in four battleground states that Biden won. What happens if something like that comes up again? He is speaker of the House, not just some obscure member from Louisiana.

We'll talk about that in a minute with New York Congressman Dan Goldman. One of the surprising things to some people in the New York area is that the Republicans in the crucial swing districts that were covering around here, who all voted against Jim Jordan for speaker, all voted for Mike Johnson, who is arguably just as right-wing. That's Mike Lawler, Anthony D'Esposito, Andrew Garbarino, and Nick LaLota, all no votes on Jim Jordan, all yes votes on Mike Johnson.

LaLota, by the way, introduced a measure yesterday to kick his fellow Long Island Republican, George Santos out of Congress. We'll talk about that too as we get Democratic reaction from Congressman Dan Goldman. Is the Congressman ready? Congressman Dan Goldman from the 10th Congressional District covering Lower Manhattan and parts of Northwest Brooklyn. Congressman, it's always good to have you. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congressman Dan Goldman: Thanks so much, Brian. Great to be with you.

Brian Lehrer: I want to start with your basic reaction to the election of Mike Johnson as speaker. Do you think he'll be any better or worse than Kevin McCarthy, who basically followed Trump's lead on everything and everything?

Congressman Dan Goldman: No. Kevin McCarthy was ultimately held hostage by the extreme right. Mike Johnson is squarely a part of the extreme MAGA right. As Donald Trump called him, he is MAGA Mike. His policy views are as extreme as they could possibly be, and he's as strident about them as one could possibly be. You mentioned him being the chief architect of the legal strategy to try to overturn the election. He, of course, voted to overturn the election after the insurrection, but he has also been a leading sponsor of a national abortion ban.

He has throughout his career attacked LGBTQ rights, including marriage equality. He has voiced that the number one priority for Republicans must be to cut Social Security and Medicare all up and down the line. He is as extreme as they come. I like to say he's Jim Jordan with a sport coat and a southern drawl because there's very little daylight between his policy views and Jim Jordan's.

Brian Lehrer: But is there? I want to talk about that a little bit, maybe not on policy, but you called him strident. In fairness to Johnson in his acceptance speech on Wednesday, he did not sound like the perpetually antagonistic wing of the party like a Trump, or a Jim Jordan, or a Matt Gaetz. Right at the start, for example, he gave these words of praise, we're going to play a clip, these words of praise to Democratic leader and your colleague from Brooklyn, Hakeem Jeffries.

Mike Johnson: I want to thank Leader Jeffries. I do look forward to working with you on behalf of the American people. I know we see things from very different points of view, but I know that in your heart, you love and care about this country and you want to do what's right. We're going to find common ground there. All right.

Brian Lehrer: Your reaction to that? I don't know if Trump, or Jim Jordan, or maybe Kevin McCarthy, I'm not sure would ever have said out loud that Hakeem Jeffries loves this country and we're going to find common ground with him.

Congressman Dan Goldman: There is a ray of hope because he is unknown. I hope that what he says is true. The problem here is that his consistent views and his consistent voting pattern has been even weighed further to the right than Kevin McCarthy. He voted against the continuing resolution, he voted against Ukraine aid. He has voted for all of the culture war, the poison pill amendments that the Republican Party has included in every single bill that's come to the floor. His lip service, somewhat like the New York Republicans who you mentioned, it sounds very good. In his history, just like with the New York Republicans' actual track record, it's incredibly extreme. That is the concern.

Brian Lehrer: Let's talk about those New York area swing district Republicans, and of course, they'll be central to holding the Republican majority next year or losing it to Democrats because those seats are very much in play, at least those four seats from the Congress members I mentioned. For example, Republican Mike Lawler of Westchester and Rockland, the district on both sides of the Tappan Zee Bridge voted against Jim Jordan.

Lawler is in the bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus. As the Hudson Valley newspaper The Journal news reported, Lawler made waves when he spoke openly about working with Democrats to avoid the government shutdown, but he voted for Mike Johnson. Here's Lawler on Fox News yesterday, explaining a little of why.

Mike Lawler: You don't have to agree on everything, certainly, Mike and I don't. As Ed Koch famously said, "If you agree with a politician on 12 out of 12 things, go see a psychiatrist." We're not going to agree on everything, but we need to be able to work together. I think Mike is somebody who can bring people from all sides together. He has the personality and the temperament to do that.

Brian Lehrer: Personality and the temperament to do that. Lawler and the other local swing district Republicans who would not vote for Jim Jordan all did vote for Mike Johnson. Does Lawler have a point? Jim Jordan did not have the temperament to be a successful speaker. I think most Democrats and most Republicans agree on that, but Mike Johnson just might, even if you disagree with him on many issues, at least that's what Lawler was saying.

Congressman Dan Goldman: Look, part of the problem with Mike Johnson is he's only in his fourth term. He's never been a part of leadership, he's never been a committee chairman. He's entirely unknown. He had never even met Mitch McConnell until yesterday. You can point to his temperament, you can point to all of these things to try to justify what ultimately was a vote for a MAGA extremists.

When you look at the civil war that was going on within the Republican Party over the last four weeks in this speaker battle, ultimately they went from someone who was held hostage by the right through someone who is part of the extreme MAGA right. Lawler, and Molinaro, and LaLota, D'Esposito, Brandon Williams up in '22, which is very much in play, they will all have everything that Mike Johnson does. Everything from here on out will be on their backs because they were ultimately the block of voters that got Mike Johnson into the speaker's office.

Brian Lehrer: Even on the election denial, you probably agree that Donald Trump is a want-to-be authoritarian. Democracy itself, our democratic system is at stake if he becomes president again. We went over at the beginning of the segment how extreme Mike Johnson was in that respect in 2020. Listen to this clip of Johnson from near the end of his speech on Wednesday.

Mike Johnson: I'm going to make this commitment to you, to my colleagues here and on the other side of the aisle as well, my office is going to be known for trust, and transparency, and accountability, for good stewardship of the people's treasure, for the honesty, integrity that is incumbent upon us, all of us, here in the People's House. Our system of government is not a perfect system. It's got a lot of challenges, but it is still the best one in the world, and we have an opportunity to preserve it.

Brian Lehrer: Maybe he's a wolf in sheep's clothing there, but he didn't say anything about the 2020 election being rigged like Trump always talks about still. He talked about believing in our system as we heard at the end of the clip. How do you think Americans should hear that part of the speech?

Congressman Dan Goldman: I think you can tell everything you need from Donald Trump's behavior over the last several days. Tom Emmer, the majority whip who has been in leadership, he's run the NRCC, the fundraising arm for the Republican Congressional Caucus, he is far more experienced and battle-tested than Mike Johnson, had the support of the vast majority of the Republican party. Tom Emmer voted to certify the election. Tom Emmer voted for the continuing resolution. Tom Emmer is a far more reasonable, practical Republican than Mike Johnson. Donald Trump came out against him and immediately submarined his speakership candidacy.

When Donald Trump came out for Mike Johnson, he was immediately elevated. This party is controlled by Donald Trump. We all know that Donald Trump will do everything possible to install himself in the presidency in 2024. He now has someone as the speaker of the House who has a track record of trying to unlawfully overturn the election through frivolous legal arguments and manipulation. Mike Johnson's a smart guy. He's a smart lawyer. What he did as part of the 2020 election, is he did Donald Trump's bidding. Now Donald Trump has someone aligned with him and associated with him, who is going to be the speaker of the House when Donald Trump's election occurs.

Brian Lehrer: If Trump is even the candidate once we get to next November's election, et cetera, play that out for us a little bit. What do you fear could be different if Johnson is speaker of the House, if the same thing happens next year, Biden beats Trump, Trump makes all these baseless claims of rigged election but Mike Johnson, with his record and inclinations on this, is speaker when we get to that next equivalent of January 6th, I think it's January 3rd in 2025.

Congressman Dan Goldman: Yes, it is. It'll be very much dovetailing when the Congress turns over. If Mike Johnson remains the speaker, he signed on to a completely bogus frivolous argument. He voted to overturn the election based on absolute lies. If Mike Johnson's the speaker of the House and the Republicans have the majority, the only reason it didn't work this last time was, one, Mike Pence, but also because the Democrats had the majority. The Democrats were able to beat back all of these efforts to overturn the election. If the Republicans were the majority and you have someone who wants to overturn the election like Mike Johnson, they have a lot better chance of succeeding.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Now, the other potentially big congressional news from the New York area and in a swing district is that Nassau and Queens Congressman George Santos, who of course lied about his whole life and has multiple criminal charges against him, is now also facing an expulsion resolution introduced by one of those local swing district Republicans Nick LaLota, also from Long Island. My understanding is that this kind of expulsion resolution has to be acted on within two business days, so right away, and that it takes a two-thirds majority to actually kick him out. That means the Republicans introducing it will need Democratic votes. Will you vote to expel George Santos from Congress?

Congressman Dan Goldman: Yes, of course. I voted to expel him in May when we introduced an expulsion motion. All the same, Republicans voted essentially not to expel him, and nothing has changed. He was under indictment, he's now under indictment. If he gets due process, which was the argument they used back in the spring, why does he not get due process now? This is clearly just a political ploy to save their hide because they realize that George Santos is bad for them politically, but they don't actually care about integrity in the House.

If they did care about integrity, they would've booted George Santos long ago because he's admitted to defrauding his own voters in order to become a member of Congress. You don't have to wait for a criminal due process when you have the individual who has acknowledged that he lied about significant parts of his past to deceive voters. It also turns out that he lied on his campaign finance disclosures, that he defrauded others, that he is an inveterate fraudster of a criminal nature according to the indictment.

We don't need that to determine that he doesn't belong in the House of Representatives. This is a cynical political ploy by these Republicans to jump on this bandwagon long after they should have. Of course, if this comes to the floor, we Democrats have said from day one that George Santos does not belong in the House, and we will of course vote to expel him.

Brian Lehrer: It sounds like just--

Congressman Dan Goldman: The question really Brian is--

Brian Lehrer: Go on.

Congressman Dan Goldman: The question is whether you need two-thirds, it's not just a half. You're going to need more than the New York Republicans on the Republican side in order to expel him.

Brian Lehrer: You'd need about a third of the Republicans if all the Democrats vote to expel him. Do you think you have that?

Congressman Dan Goldman: I don't know. Even Mike Johnson said on TV last night that there's such a slim majority, which of course, they would prioritize their majority in their power over the integrity of Congress, but that is clearly the reason why they have kept him here to this point because they care far more about their power than they do about making sure that Congress is operating with an upstanding group of people to the extent that it can.

Brian Lehrer: Has Johnson as the new speaker taken a position on expelling George Santos, do you know?

Congressman Dan Goldman: Not to my knowledge. All he said was what I just said, which is that he acknowledged how slim their majority is.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, if it happens, there would be a special election to fill the rest of his term. The last member to hold that third district seat was Thomas Suozzi, a Democrat. This is a genuine swing district and Suozzi is among many people who have expressed an interest in it. Are you at this point for Thomas Suozzi or any other candidate if the seat becomes vacant?

Congressman Dan Goldman: Right now I'm very focused on making sure there is a special election and getting George Santos out of Congress where he does not belong. The governor will then be able to determine when the special election is within 30 to 90 days after the expulsion or resignation. The county chairs from Nassau County and Queens County will make the decision as to who the candidate is. I have every faith that Greg Meeks and J. Jacobs will choose the very best candidate, and I will certainly support whoever that is.

Brian Lehrer: Dan Goldman, Democratic candidate from Lower Manhattan and parts of Northwest Brooklyn, did I say candidate? Congressman [laughs]. I assume you'll be a candidate again next year or you want to announce right now you're running for reelection?

Congressman Dan Goldman: [laughs] Yes, Brian, I'm running for reelection.

Brian Lehrer: Congressman Dan Goldman, thank you very much.

Congressman Dan Goldman: Thank you.

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