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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. On the day that subway choker, Daniel Penny, is being formally charged, he has turned himself in. We will get legal analysis from a former assistant Manhattan DA and take your calls on the evidence as it's known so far. I saw a legal analyst on TV today suggest that the defense will try to put Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg himself on trial for allowing the subways to become a place where incidents like that are more likely. Of course, that's putting him on trial rhetorically as part of Daniel Penny's defense.

No coincidence that Penny has hired, as his defense lawyer, the Republican who ran against Alvin Bragg for the job. This is also the day after the federal government's COVID emergency officially expired. We'll get a few takes on that today from financial journalist, Felix Salmon, on how COVID has weirded the economy, but in some ways for the better, not just the worse. How doing things in person less than before is affecting teen mental health, for better or for worse.

Joining me now on this Friday, Congresswoman Yvette Clarke of South and Central Brooklyn. Among other things, I'll ask about how people will pay for COVID tests and treatments now that they're not free anymore. Free tests and treatments were among the federal emergency rules that expired, even though according to the New York Times COVID Tracker, another 1,109 Americans died of COVID in the week ending May 3rd.

Congresswoman Clarke is also in the news for a new bill that would require disclosure if political ads use content generated by artificial intelligence. We'll get her take on the Daniel Perry subway-- Daniel Penny, I should say, subway choking indictment and maybe even the George Santos indictment. So plenty to talk about. Congresswoman Clarke, always good to have you on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Good morning, Brian. It's great to be back with you.

Brian Lehrer: Can I start with Daniel Penny, the breaking news today now facing second-degree manslaughter charges, we are told, for the subway choking death of Jordan Neely after Neely was acting erratically and people felt threatened. Do you support this prosecution?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: I absolutely do. We cannot have a system of justice where someone is killed and there is no accountability. The courts will ultimately determine whether Mr. Neely was in his right given the circumstances on the subway on that day, but a life was taken, and we need to make sure that there's accountability.

Brian Lehrer: Are you hearing from constituents in and around Flatbush, your home neighborhood or anywhere in the district, one way or another on this case, lots of people there would've felt unsafe with an apparently mentally ill person looking volatile to them on an enclosed subway car, but also fearing the police or vigilantes for themselves or loved ones, especially if they're Black, I think it's fair to say when a psychotic episode occurs. How divided do you think your constituents are, if you have any sense?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: I don't have a full sense of it, but I think that we all need to be able to put ourselves in the shoes of Jordan Neely and his family. I think we'd all want to see justice. At the end of the day, a life was taken. We don't know all of the circumstances but clearly, something went wrong when one New Yorker takes the life of another and there is no investigation, no accountability around that loss of life.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we'll go into detail on the charges against Daniel Penny and the case for the prosecution and the defense with our second guest today, former assistant Manhattan DA Catherine Christian, that's coming up after Congresswoman Clarke. Congresswoman, tell us about your bill that's about artificial intelligence and political advertising.

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Absolutely. It's the Real Political Ads Act, and I'm really concerned about the upcoming 2024 election cycle, where, for the first time, in US history, we will have AI-generated content that'll be used in political ads by campaigns, by parties, by super PACs. Right now, our current laws have not kept pace with the rapid development of artificial intelligence technologies.

My bill would basically expand current laws to include disclaimers for online ads since current ads only account for TV and radio, and that the bill also adds a disclaimer requirements for AI-generated media and/or video in all political ads. When we saw the RNC's ad that ran, though it had a disclaimer, it really indicated to me that this was a space that we needed to legislate in because there will be other individuals that will be inspired by this but won't put disclaimers.

Brian Lehrer: What's that RNC ad, Republican National Committee ad that used AI that you're referring to?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: There was an ad that was basically a negative ad against President Biden that showed him presiding over mayhem and madness in the United States of America. It depicted it in video and it wasn't true, was a fictitious depiction of a dystopian America. I thought that those who were inclined to create such videos, AI-generated will not necessarily feel a need to put a disclaimer. That can be very dangerous, dangerous to our elections, dangerous to our national security.

Brian Lehrer: I see. If political ad makers were using fake footage and developing it through old-fashioned photoshopping or video editing, they already have to disclose. Now you're just making sure they have to disclose that if they use AI to generate the images?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: They don't have to disclose it all online. That's an issue because our laws have not kept up with our usage of media, all forms of media. Those that are generated online don't have any guardrails. My legislation would erect those guardrails and make it possible for the American people to recognize when something has been manufactured, has been fictitiously created from something that is real, real news.

Brian Lehrer: Do you have a position on regulation of AI even more broadly? So many people are worried about how it could take their jobs, for example. You know it's an issue in the ongoing TV writer strike, and some experts are warning we've created something that is smarter than us and it needs to be carefully regulated. I'm not sure how, so it remains clear who's controlling whom.

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Absolutely. It's a major concern. My concern goes back to just some of the older technologies like deep fake technologies where that has already caused harm and hardship for people. There's a lot of work that we need to do here in Congress to keep pace with the innovation that is all technology-based. We've been a bit derelict in duty. I know that there are many who are concerned, not only in the technology industry, but here as members of Congress, about the rapid pace of development in AI and how it will impact, not only our economy, but can impact the emotional and psychological well-being of the American people.

Many are calling for a pause in deployment. It's not that the technology doesn't exist and that it can't be helpful in many regards, but we know that there will be displacement particularly in employment as a result of the deployment of AI.

Brian Lehrer: What's Congress's role? Is there one?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: I think that, first of all, there's a learning curve. Many of my colleagues need to come up to speed with what the capabilities of AI actually are and how it's currently being utilized and what the future holds with respect to AI. From there, we can work with industry to put some real regulation in place that makes it possible for us to govern as opposed to AI.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take a few phone calls for Brooklyn Congresswoman Yvette Clarke on anything relevant to Congress right now. Hold your Daniel Penny indictment questions for our next guest, former Manhattan Assistant District Attorney Catherine Clarke. We'll have plenty of time for that. For right now, and for the congresswoman, we can take a few phone calls on artificial intelligence in political advertising, the asylum seekers after Title 42, the debt ceiling, COVID test and treatment after the emergency officially has expired at the federal level, things like those, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692.

Congresswoman, the COVID emergency is over, and as I said in the intro, with it go the COVID tests and treatments that were free for all as of yesterday. Are you concerned about people in your district and elsewhere in America who might not be well insured, but still might get COVID or want to get tested?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Yes. I am concerned, we are still seeing thousands of Americans being infected with and dying from COVID every week in the United States. It's not as alarming as it was at the onset of the pandemic, but nevertheless, for our families, it's still a traumatic experience. I think that federal and state governments have a responsibility to supply healthcare workers, in particular, with the resources they need to see this crisis through to the end.

That the American people need to have a means of accessing testing as well as continued vaccination so that we can, again, have a soft landing with respect to what has been a horrific experience for people worldwide. Certainly, for us in the United States who have lost over a million people, we need to be vigilant. There's still mutations, there's still work to be done to address the Long COVID phenomena that we're living with. I believe it's our government's responsibility to see this through and to provide the resources for the American people to navigate their way through this.

Brian Lehrer: Larry in Easton, Pennsylvania has a question about your Artificial Intelligence in political advertising bill. Larry, you're on WNYC with Brooklyn Congresswoman Yvette Clarke. Hello.

Larry: Yes, I just wanted to know, can you go into a little more detail about exactly how this ad was created using AI? I mean, it's not one computer talking to the other and saying, "Let's do an ad." Isn't it directed by human beings? How does it differ from what you mentioned before, Brian, an ad that's created using Photoshop and other kinds of strategies like that?

Brian Lehrer: Good question. Congresswoman.

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: It is a good question. What AI enables is a rapid deployment of false information. It makes it possible for that type of deceptive or fictitious video to rapidly saturate the online population. That's why it's important that there's a disclaimer because, in the blink of an eye, you can incite people one way or another to react to something that they believe is real but ultimately has been fabricated.

When I think about, for instance, someone who may want to be disruptive, it could be a nation-state, it could be an adversary that wants to disrupt our election. They disseminate information that looks so real, but says that election day has been moved to Thursday versus Tuesday. What that impact can be to everyday people who are just going about their business, just working each and every day but don't have time to fact check. We need a disclaimer that says that that was fabricated.

Brian Lehrer: Here's another one on the bill, David on Shelter Island. You're on WNYC with Congresswoman Clarke. Hi, David.

David: Hi, Brian. Hi, Congresswoman. I'm a bioethics professor at Columbia, and what I'm concerned about is who will be responsible morally and legally when [unintelligible 00:14:40] AI is creating new content that was not the initial thought of the person who initiated the process, but somebody needs to be responsible for minding what the AI algorithms are doing. Congressman, will your bill address that responsibility question?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Not this bill in particular, but I have another piece of legislation. My algorithmic bias legislation, accountability. It's the Algorithmic Accountability Act which makes it necessary at the algorithm level for us to get the type of accountability from our tech companies about exactly what our algorithms are-- what the impact is. We know that whomever establishes the algorithm that, at the end of the day, there's a fingerprint, if you will, and that is based on that individual's lived experiences.

It could be discriminatory, it could be harmful, it could be helpful. We have a bill that deals with the molecules that go into what ultimately becomes AI, which is the algorithm as you've rightly stated that calls for the accountability.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for your call, David. Appreciate it. Now, also, with the expiration of the COVID emergency, there went Title 42 of the Immigration Law, the immigration restrictions, as we've been all been discussing. They're anticipating something like 10,000 asylum seekers crossing per day. Mayor Adams says 4,000 have come just to New York City in the last week. You come from an immigrant family. Your mother I know is a pioneering Caribbean American member of New York City Council, and maybe the immigration law should be very liberal, but is this all too much in this way? It doesn't seem like the US has control of its borderers and determines how many people can enter at one time.

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: I would flip it the other way, Brian. What is driving so many people in our hemisphere to migrate at this time? There are multiple layers to what we are experiencing at our southern border. One of the challenges we face, quite frankly, is an antiquated and broken, obsolete immigration system. That has to be dealt with. The remaining Mexico policies, it has just created a pressure cooker. At the end of the day people when they're in harm's way, they're going to migrate. We, knowing this, have got to create a system by which we can, one, make sure that we know who's entering our borders.

We can quickly adjudicate their circumstances and their cases, and make the right decisions about who ultimately is granted the ability to migrate, to become Americans, and who, quite frankly, is not eligible. I think that that is what the Biden administration is grappling with, but not having the tools. Whether it's the finance that has been-- the resources and financial resources that have been withheld by this Congress from the administration, and/or whether it is the fact that we as a Congress have not acted in over 30 years to modernize and create a 21st-century immigration system.

Brian Lehrer: Mayor Adams keeps pleading with Washington, as I'm sure you know, to finance more of the resettlement because it's really a federal issue, and to approve work permits more quickly so the asylum seekers can get jobs while their asylum applications are processed. Good, because they'll want to work, and good because the city and other levels of government won't have to support them as much. Can you help with that?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Absolutely. Our delegation has been really pressing the Biden administration to make the resources, to make New York City and other jurisdictions across this nation whole. We have footed the bill for what has been a federal mandate in terms of allowing for the, I guess, transporting of migrants across this nation. It's not like we had a whole lot of power to stop what Texas Governors, Florida Governors are doing. However, we do have the power to provide the resources that are required to give some relief to our cities across this nation that are bearing the brunt of this migration.

I believe that the Biden administration recognizes what the challenge is. Then just most recently, the entire congressional delegation, it has called upon the Biden administration to expedite these work permits because, under the current construct, it takes up to six months before the migrant is even eligible to seek a work permit. We need it to happen immediately, and we've made that known to the Biden administration.

Brian Lehrer: A few more minutes with Congresswoman Yvette Clarke of Brooklyn, then we'll talk to former Assistant Manhattan District Attorney, Catherine Christian, about Daniel Penny turning himself in, the subway choker now officially charged with manslaughter in the second degree, we are told. Coming up in just a few minutes. Do you have any debt ceiling news, congresswoman? Any week now the US will stop being able to pay its bills, as most of our listeners know, which could be Social Security payments or not cash in treasury bonds people want to sell, and lots of other things. Unless the two parties can agree to borrow the money to pay for all these things that Congress already approved. Can we avoid falling off this fiscal cliff?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: We could certainly avoid it, Brian. Will we avoid it, is another question. We know that what we call the four corners here in Washington, DC, that's the leadership in both the Senate and the House, met with President Biden to hammer out the differences between the House in particular, House leadership, Speaker McCarthy, and everyone else around raising the debt limit. My understanding is that staffs are deeply in conversation right now. It is critical that we raise the debt limit and it's just so ironic that this is happening during the Biden administration when we raised the debt limit during the Trump administration three times with no fanfare.

Quite frankly, we've already made commitments to pay our debts. That's something that every American is acquainted with. You use a service, you purchase a good, you pay for it, and our credit card is due. We have to be sober, and mature, and adult in taking care of our responsibilities. The issues around budget cuts and things of that nature should not be late to debts that are owed and must be paid. That's another conversation for another time. We are waiting a budget from Speaker McCarthy. We have not seen one yet, and so the demand is more of a hostage-taking than it is one that is practical, given where we sit right now with respect to three weeks before the Treasury is in a conundrum.

Brian Lehrer: Before you go, we talked about the Daniel Penny indictment a little bit, and that's the topic of our next segment. We also have the indictment of your New York Congressional colleague, though you probably don't like thinking of him as that, George Santos, on fraud, money laundering, theft of public services, and making false statements, all those things, as well as even collecting unemployment when he was actually employed, charges of the federal government. Here he is this week apparently taking a page from a certain fellow Republican who was found to be a liar by a jury this week. Here is Santos.

George Santos: The reality is it's a witch hunt, because it makes no sense that in four months, five months, I'm indicted.

Brian Lehrer: Which hunt, Congresswoman Clarke?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: It's unfortunate this is a distraction from the work that we have to do in Washington, DC. It's an affront to the people who voted to put Mr. Santos in Congress. At the end of the day, this was to be expected. What we've known about George Santos, what the reporting has indicated about his background, it was not a matter of will this happen, it was when it would happen, and the day has come where he's being held accountable.

Brian Lehrer: What in your opinion should happen in Congress with Santos while he presumably stands trial, or doesn't it really matter because he's just one vote?

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: That's up to the Republican leadership. Leader McCarthy has already stated that he's innocent until proven guilty. It's unfortunate because with such a slim majority on the Republican side of the House, this is all about the maintenance of Speaker McCarthy's speakership. It has nothing to do with what's moral, what's right, what's ethical, and/or the reputation of the House of Representatives.

It's truly unfortunate that this is what we've come to in Washington, DC, because it's, to me, a deterioration of democratic values, of US values. When we go around the world proclaiming democracy as the means for governance and freedom for people, they can point to the fact that we talk the talk, but we aren't walking the walk.

Brian Lehrer: I guess we'll see if Santos stays in the race even if he gets primaried by another Republican for that Queens and Long Island District next year, or if a Democrat emerges who can take it back from him. Of course, that was Tom Suozzi's seat for a number of years before Santos flipped it on a lot of false pretenses.

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Absolutely, and Speaker McCarthy did say that he would not support George Santos for re-election, so I suppose there's a glimmer of hope in that, but this is really a situation where we have an individual who doesn't have a moral compass. I can tell you that if the shoe were on the other foot of a Democratic member, there's no doubt in my mind that they would have resigned already.

Brian Lehrer: Let's hope. Congresswoman of Yvette Clarke -- [crosstalk]

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Yes, let's hope.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you very much.

Congresswoman Yvette Clarke: Take good care. Good to speak with you, Brian.

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