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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Are we entering a new era of non-violent civil disobedience in this country in support of abortion rights? In a minute, we'll talk to a member of Congress from New Jersey, who is among those arrested in front of the Supreme Court in one such demonstration. It comes as voters in Kansas next week will have abortion rights on the ballot and the first voter referendum on the issue since the Supreme Court reversed Roe v. Wade last month.

The state legislature in Indiana is nearing a vote on banning almost all abortions there. There are reports of more US women going to Mexico to obtain legal abortions. Did you know that the Supreme Court in that country recently declared abortion a national right? It's not just people from there coming here for an opportunity to have a better life anymore, which is the usual narrative about crossing the US-Mexico border. We'll talk now to New Jersey Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman. As I said, she was one of a number of members of Congress arrested in a non-violent protest at the Supreme Court for abortion rights last week.

She is also a member of the Homeland Security Committee. We'll talk about that with what we've been learning from the January 6th committee about how pre-planned some of the violence was on that day by white supremacist and militia groups, other white supremacist domestic terror threats, which the FBI, even under Trump, labeled the number one domestic terror threat, plus the attack last week on Republican New York gubernatorial candidate Lee Zeldin, the arrest of a person recently for plotting to assassinate Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, and more.

Can our country keep this from escalating further? You may remember, the congresswoman got COVID after hiding out on January 6th in a room with many congressional colleagues. She later blamed the Republicans in the room who refused to wear masks even in that situation. Democrat Bonnie Watson Coleman represents New Jersey's 12th congressional district, covering roughly from the Plainfield and New Brunswick areas in the north down through Princeton and the Trenton area in the south. Congresswoman, we always appreciate when you come on with us. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman: Thank you. I'm delighted to be here with you. Thank you for asking me.

Brian Lehrer: Let's begin with your arrest last Tuesday at the abortion rights demonstration. You and 16 other members of Congress is the number that I have. Would you describe in your own words what that protest was and why you were all arrested?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Well, we're very concerned obviously. We're very disappointed in the decision that the Supreme Court made that is limiting access to safe and affordable abortions or health care for women. We're very concerned about things that we've heard coming out of one of the Supreme Court jurors' mouth, and particularly Clarence Thomas that even suggests that for the same reasons that they overturn this abortion decision, they can move in and overturn other precedents that have been established and decisions that have been made that impact our privacy and our rights even more.

While we are trying to manage this legislatively because the House has twice now voted on a bill to preserve and protect women's access to abortion and health care to that extent, we must continue to keep the concern and the urgency of the situation at the forefront of everyone's mind. One way of doing that obviously is to demonstrate, to walk along with people who share that same core value that a woman should have autonomy over her body and that abortion is health care.

On so many different levels, we're seeing how it's affecting the safety and security of women and even little girls. It is absurd that in 2022, we're having to revisit this issue. What we did was joined the organizers in marching to stand up for a woman's right and to call out that we have this work to do, and that this government of "by and for the people" can change things if the people collectively act.

Brian Lehrer: Was the sit-in, you sat down, and blocked traffic, was that the reason technically for the arrests?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Well, we blocked traffic. All of us didn't sit down obviously, but we stood in place. We were given our warnings and we were told that if we didn't move, we'd be arrested. There were several of the protestors who started out in front of the Capitol who maintained their positions and were arrested.

Brian Lehrer: Would you call your action non-violent civil disobedience in the style of Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: And the great John Lewis? Absolutely. It was civil. There was no violence, even a hint of violence or tension on that level. It was simply exercising our right to speak out and to demonstrate and to show that the will of the people is very strong as it relates to this issue, so definitely.

Brian Lehrer: What was your experience under arrest like? How were you and your colleagues treated?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Oh, let me just say that it was nothing like the very brave people who were arrested in the '60s during the civil rights movement. The officers were all very, very polite. We were held in an area on the grounds of the Capitol and then we were processed. It took us quite a while to be processed. It wasn't convenient because it interfered with other things that we needed to do.

I for one needed to debate an issue on the floor. We couldn't do it because we couldn't get processed in time. It wasn't frightening. It actually helped us to even bond more with those other non-elected individuals who were standing up for a woman's autonomy over her body and demanding that government get out of our bedrooms and get out of our bodies.

Brian Lehrer: Do you expect this to be the beginning of a wave of such actions?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: I think that we have to do whatever it is that is necessary, Brian, right now to continue to show the urgency and to show the collective will of the citizens of this country, the people of this country. Overwhelmingly, they support access to a safe and affordable abortion. Overwhelmingly, they support beyond that. Just the notion of a woman's autonomy over her body. I do believe that this issue is also the beginning of the Supreme Court's foray into other areas that are similarly situated. The Supreme Court needs to see the will of the people.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners--

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: I'm sorry. I was going to say--

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead. Finish your thought.

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: I am certain that there will be continuous demonstrations of one form or another, civil, non-violent, and legal.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we can take any questions or comments for Democratic Congressmember Bonnie Watson Coleman of New Jersey on the action of 17 members of Congress last week to get arrested in front of the Supreme Court in support of abortion rights. Are you in your own life engaging in any such civil disobedience or planning any different than maybe the kind of political involvement that you've been willing to get involved with in the past? Is this that kind of an issue for you or anything else you want to say or ask? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or tweet @BrianLehrer.

We'll also be getting into implications of what we've learned in the January 6th committee hearings for Representative Watson Coleman as a member of Congress at all and as a member of the Homeland Security Committee in particular. 212-433-WNYC on that if you want to ask or say something. 212-433-9692 or tweet @BrianLehrer. Staying on the abortion rights issue for the moment. In the divided Congress with a 50/50 Senate and 60 votes needed there to pass most things by their filibuster rule, is there anything Congress can do to protect abortion rights nationally?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Well, we've certainly tried in the House of Representatives. The president certainly has addressed certain guidances as it relates to the health and well-being and safety of women in this situation and their access to health care in emergency situations, but this is where the people in this country can be very instrumental in helping us move the legislation through the Senate.

The Senate across the nation, from the red states to the blue states to the purple states to whatever it is they represent, need to hear that we as people in this country believe that a woman has the right to make these decisions in her life and that we need Roe v. Wade and those protections, which were under that decision, to be codified. That's already been done in the House of Representatives. We need the Senate to do it.

I think the Senate sometimes is very insular. It doesn't realize that even those members have a responsibility to the constituents in their states and across this country. If we flood them with information, if we blow up their telephone lines, so to speak, with calls and they hear persistently across the country that we need Roe v. Wade codified and that this rest now with them to do, then I ask God, believe that the will of the people ultimately will prevail.

Now, having said that, the next thing that I think that is essential in making this happen if this doesn't move them is to elect different senators, is to elect pro-choice senators in the upcoming election, and ensuring that they were electing senators, ask them, "How do you feel about the filibuster standing in the way of these very important decisions that impact past decisions which have already been made, conditions under which we'd lived for 50 years? How do you feel about the filibuster? Are you willing to set it aside under those conditions?" If we have a majority in the Senate that is willing to do that, then we're able to move not only this kind of legislation, but we'll be able to protect same-sex marriage.

We'll be able to protect access to contraception. We'll be able to ensure that there's protection on a number of areas, including voting rights that we thought these issues had been settled. We thought that this country had matured enough to be beyond this and that we were continuing to preserve and protect the autonomy and the freedom and the rights of individuals. We're very concerned right now that this very extreme Supreme Court that I've not seen in my lifetime is willing to undo these things that there's, unfortunately, a right-wing political agenda at foot in the Supreme Court. That's very sad for this country.

Brian Lehrer: Mitch McConnell has said, if the Republicans control Congress next year, it's possible that they would enact a national abortion ban, not just the state-by-state system that the Supreme Court ruling established. Are you concerned they would actually go that far?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Yes, the one thing that I have seen coming from Republicans in these last two years and even the last three years is that they're willing to embrace a very, very right-wing restrictive agenda because that's what the donors that support them that have been working on bringing us to this point for decades want. It's not about what your core beliefs are. It's not about what the rule of law is. It's not about what the will of the people is, the collective in the United States of America.

It is playing to these very extreme, controlling right-wing extremists, and that is very concerning. That is very concerning from a privacy perspective. That is very concerning from my rights perspective. It's antithetical to what a democracy is supposed to be. I always had assurance that even when it wasn't always working in the way I wanted it to that this was the fairest form of government, and that we had mechanisms to change things that were lawful and that were non-violent and that responded to the will of the people.

Brian Lehrer: Aaliyah-

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: We don't have that right now.

Brian Lehrer: -in Astoria, you're on WYNC with Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman of New Jersey. Hello, Aaliyah.

Aaliyah: Hi, it's a pleasure to be on the show. Now, I've been a clinic escort for the past seven years. I'm 27 years old. I've been a clinic escort in New York City. I also am a New York abortion case fund manager. I've been in this fight for a couple of years now. I know that we've been screaming that this post-Roe world could happen.

Now that it's here, I'm afraid for my fellow activists who are still fighting. What kind of protections do we have? Because I'm helping women from Texas fly to New York to get care. I know that it's a really real, real circumstance that 50 states were going to have abortion banned. I want to know, where can we protect the people who are still fighting, who are still taking women across state lines to get support?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: First of all, thank you for the work that you do. God bless you. This is important work and I believe that it is the right thing that you are doing. We're very concerned about those who are navigators or escorts, whatever you want to call them. We even passed the law saying that in the House of Representatives to protect those who are engaged in helping women to navigate where they can go.

We're examining those areas right now, Aaliyah. As a matter of fact, the Caucus on Black Women and Girls is proposing to have a public meeting on how we can go about creating safe networks for women to access abortions in other states. This is very real. There are states that are encouraging people to get into the business of other people, to make assumptions about other people, to turn people in.

This was like a vigilante form of activity that we have to combat, but we need a Senate to work with us. We need the people who are impacted, women in particular, but also just families in general to be speaking up and letting the Senate know that we must engage in the protection of a woman's rights and those who provide the health care and those who provide the transportation and those who provide the direction, the counseling, and everything.

This is not going to be a quick fix. This is something that we're going to have to keep tackling and we're committed to doing that. Democrats are committed to doing that. The House of Representatives has done it. Now, we have to get the Senate to do it and we need to get Republicans because even in their states and in their districts, a woman's access to a safe abortion is a right that is supported by the majority of people in this country.

Brian Lehrer: Linda in Manhattan, you're on WNYC with Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman. Hi, Linda.

Linda: Good morning. First of all, thank you, Brian Lehrer. You are wonderful and I want to thank the Congress person for getting out there and taking a stand. For those of us who were a little past marching age, I want to say the following. I'm a recently-retired physician who will never, ever forget doing an out elective in North Carolina and seeing a 14-year-old girl come in with fever of 104, shaking, chills, and basically sepsis, life-threatening sepsis from a true coat-hanger-type abortion. She had to have a hysterectomy in the middle of the night to save her life. Indefinitely in my brain.

Abortion is part of the spectrum of health care and nobody but the doctor and the woman has a right to deal with it. For those of us who are a little too old to be marching, I say support NARAL. Support Physicians for Reproductive Health. Report Hey Jane, which is a group that'll help with getting funding or abortion pills. Get out there and do what we need. Those of us in New York, our representatives already agree with us. We don't have much to do with the ballot, except continue to support it, but get out there and help in any way you can. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Linda, thank you, Congresswoman, what would you say to that? Of course, that just chilling story that she told about the 14-year-old having an emergency hysterectomy because of symptoms from what she called a coat-hanger-style abortion. We already see the case of the 10-year-old from Ohio who was raped. The officials there started out by denying it and calling it a hoax. They had to acknowledge eventually that it was real and they arrested the alleged perpetrator. She had to cross state lines into Indiana to get her abortion, this 10-year-old. What was the response of the authorities in Indiana? It was to investigate the doctor. Wow.

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: I think that this speaks to the dangerous times that we are currently finding ourselves. I agree with what the caller said about supporting all the organizations. I also think that on top of that, we need to-- and she means support them with financial resources so that they can expand their opportunities to protect women. I think New Jersey and New York and places like that need to be able to provide the kind of services that are going to be required because we're states where you have access to safe abortion upon request as long as your doctor and you agree.

I think that, also, we are cognizant of the fact that there are situations of ectopic pregnancies, bad abortions, et cetera, that are life-threatening to women. That's why the president signed his executive order saying that emergency healthcare must not be disrupted, must not be interrupted, and the healthcare providers must not be, pardon me, dealt with as if they're violating a law. However, we have to enforce what we say. We've got to make sure that the resources are going into those states to protect those situations.

In the meantime, we got to make sure that there are safe corridors for women and young girls. This 10-year-old, I can't imagine. I cannot imagine even with ultimately having the pregnancy terminated, the trauma that this young girl is facing at 10 years old. I have a nine-year-old granddaughter. It is incomprehensible to me. I hope that not only did we take care of that aspect, but we provide the kind of mental health counseling that she's going to need.

Brian Lehrer: Oh, here's someone calling in--

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Let me just say this.

Brian Lehrer: Go ahead, Congresswoman. Go ahead.

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Let me just say this. I have someone that I have worked with for a number of years now, who said to me that at 62 years old, she was still having her female monthly period. She was sexually active and she was already a grandmother. She said, "Now, what happens if someone of my age in my situation gets pregnant at 62 with children and grandchildren already? I would not have been able," she said, "to have taken on that responsibility." It's not just a young woman's problem. It is a woman's issue.

Brian Lehrer: Karen in Hell's Kitchen is calling in. I think she was at the same protest in DC where you got arrested last week. Karen, you're on WNYC with Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman. Hello.

Karen: Hey, how are you doing?

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Congresswoman Watson Coleman: I'm good though.

Karen: I got arrested with you. It was kind of an accident. I didn't realize there were so many Congress people involved. [chuckles] I was following the march and yelling and then everybody just ended up sitting down. I went with it and I wasn't sure what it was going to turn into. I've had quite a bit of experience with the DC police. I just wanted to thank you today for saying that that's not necessarily how people are treated.

It was one of the weirdest protests I've been involved in. [chuckles] There was a brass band and you guys were there very much on purpose for the press. At first, I felt a little icky about it because I wasn't hearing messaging that this is not necessarily the experience of people who do justified civil disobedience protests, but then I heard from people's moms who, all of a sudden, were moved to recognize what dire straits we're in.

I now understand the big picture of this. I just wanted to say thank you for the things that you're saying and ultimately that I think what we need to realize at this point is that it's all the same fight, that it's not just reproductive rights. It's not just trans rights. It's not just Black Lives Matter. This is all the same thing right now. It's getting our democracy to a point where it actually does represent everyone.

Brian Lehrer: Karen, thank you very much. Congresswoman?

Karen: Yes, I wanted to thank her also because I try to allude to the fact that this is more than just this one issue and that by being active and engaged in letting our voices be heard, that is a signal, that we are concerned about those other things like who you have the right to marry, like at your access to contraception, like voting rights, for instance, things of that nature.

All of which are playing into right now, a very right-wing extremist agenda that is being effectuated and threatened by a Supreme Court that has been unprecedented in my lifetime, which is why I support expanding the Supreme Court because I think we need more balance there. Supreme Court was never considered to be this political instrument of any group. It's very embarrassing that it is our Supreme Court now.

Brian Lehrer: We'll expand this conversation after a short break to bring in the implications of the January 6th hearings. It applies, it affects, it intersects with all these issues that New Jersey Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman is speaking about. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Good morning again, everyone. We are here with Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman from the 12th district in New Jersey. For those of you in the area, that's from around the Plainfield and New Brunswick areas in the north down through Princeton and the Trenton area in the south. She was among 17 members of Congress arrested last week at that abortion rights demonstration in front of the Supreme Court. We've been talking about that. She's also a member of the Homeland Security Committee.

Relevant to that, let's turn to the January 6th committee revelations, including last week's minute-by-minute breakdown of what President Trump did, pouring gasoline on the fire with his tweets even after knowing what was happening and refusing to make a statement to call it off even after the urgent pleas of his children, Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham and others. Congresswoman, since you were in hiding during that time in the room in which you got COVID, I'm curious if you were watching the hearing Thursday night thinking about where you were at various ones of those moments.

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Hey, Brian, I would watch every one of these hearings. Every time they show you a video clip of what was happening inside and the violence and what was happening outside and the number of people that were outside, it retraumatizes me. Because when we were inside, we weren't always in a space where we could see what was happening. Where I was held up first before being moved to the collective room, I could hear them in the corridors.

I could hear the stomping and the loud chants and things of that nature, but I still didn't recognize the degree to which we had been breached and how scary it was. I've watched every one of the hearings. They've been perfectly set up so that we are seeing a picture from the action moving back to the actual causes as to why that occurred in that manner on January the 6th. This last hearing was very illuminating about how we got to that point, what was happening in the White House. People refer to President Trump in action.

I think that President Trump had done everything he needed to create that scenario that took place on the Hill. He was watching it being executed. That isn't as if he were paralyzed and couldn't do anything. That was an intentionality on his part to let it play out even to the point of putting his then vice president in peril. He didn't care about this government. He didn't care about the safety and security of the members of Congress or the members of the Senate.

Even those who had been loyal to him, they were running for their life on that day because they were scared. He doesn't care. He just is absent, any sense of morality. All he wanted to do was to hold on to power. To me, that is antithetical to what this country is and has been. Even during the Watergate hearings, what Nixon did and his cohorts seems like a walk in the park to what Donald Trump was fermenting and planning and collaborating and expecting. It was anything he could get done. Steal election, steal votes, lie, and then incite. That's what he did.

Brian Lehrer: For you as a Homeland Security Committee member, where does January 6th fit into a larger picture of domestic terrorism?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Well, you mentioned it earlier in your opening about the FBI saying our greatest threat is domestic terrorism. I don't think that we had been giving that sufficient attention. We need to understand very carefully all that that implies, all the groups, all the sort of ideologies and methodologies that that implies because that is our greatest threat. Our greatest threat is from inside of our country.

Not only do we need to get a handle on it from Homeland Security's perspective working with the DHS and Secret Service and every other entity that has a piece in this, but then the containment, the intelligence gathering is one thing, but we need to be investing in trying to change the emotional dynamic of our country right now. We're not, "Love your brother, love your sister. Be your sister or your brothers' keepers." We're not that anymore. Right now, we are like a tinderbox. We don't trust one another. We don't like one another.

We accentuate the negative and the differences as opposed to the collective things that we share. We have to get back to healing. We really do. That is why the January 6th committee is so vitally important because in a nonpolitical, calm, very succinct way, they have used the information shared with them from the people who were closest to him, people who worked for him, the new staffers, the old staffers, the legal staffers, all of them to show us the threat that existed under his leadership to our democracy.

We'll be looking for the recommendations that the January 6th committee will ultimately make in terms of legislative initiatives to ensure that things of this ilk don't happen again. Then we'll be looking for how we move through other departments, whether Health and Human Services or whatever, to ensure that we are addressing the sickness that is so pervasive in this country right now.

Brian Lehrer: Vincent in Warren, New Jersey, you're on WNYC with Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman. Hi, Vincent.

Vincent: Hey, good morning. How are you?

Brian Lehrer: Okay, what you got?

Vincent: I apologize because I know you guys are on another subject. I just have a comment regarding the codification. I'm just wondering why it took 50 years for Roe to be codified? Why do we have to put out a fire when it should have been done right off the bat? When all these decisions come down from the Supreme Court, the Congress really should codify them immediately. I don't understand why it wasn't-- not even just Roe, but everything else that is now on the table. It's like we're just putting out fires. That's ridiculous.

Brian Lehrer: Vincent, thank you. I've heard versions of this question. I think this is what he's getting at that Democrats had control of Congress for so long. Why didn't a national right to abortion get codified into law when you knew that Roe was under attack for all these decades and could wind up being reversed in the Supreme Court?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: That's a very good question. It obviously has to do with the fact that there was not a perception that those votes necessary to do that existed. Unfortunately, it has taken until this time. It has taken this threat to these very fundamental rights for Congress to move. However, the House of Representatives has some time to pass legislation to codify whether or not it's the Roe v. Wade or the Voting Rights Act, things of that nature.

We have a Senate and we have to deal with the Senate as well. To Vincent's point, I can only speak to the last eight years since I've been there. We have been moving on those issues, voting rights, women's rights, same-sex marriage. We passed legislation dealing with every one of those issues. We have to get them through the Senate.

Brian Lehrer: To the Homeland Security question and the tinderbox you were referring to before, what would you say about the risk of escalation on various sides? There's no question according to the FBI that right-wing and white supremacist domestic terror is the number one threat, but we do have these incidents now like the person who allegedly was planning to assassinate Justice Kavanaugh and the person arrested in Upstate New York just the other day after running up on stage with some kind of knife ring on his hand to attack Republican gubernatorial candidate Lee Zeldin. How do we stop all this?

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: That's what I was talking about, about the tensions that exist here and the sickness that exist and the hatefulness that exist that was fermented, I believe, by Donald Trump and his minions. It is not easy to just fix. Obviously, we need to deal with access to weapons, access to guns, access to ammunition. That is very important. We've done some of it. We've just scratched the surface of it.

If you want people to be safe from, let's say, guns, then you got to remove the guns from the people who shouldn't have them. You got to remove certain kinds of guns from everyone because there's no reason to have these semi-automatic weapons that rapidly kill 20 children, 19 children, and 2 adults in a matter of 45 minutes or what. There's just a lot of work that has to be done. We need a greater focus on these issues. We need people to report when they know that there's someone among them that is speaking about doing things of this nature.

Just like there was in Uvalde and just like there was in, I believe, Parkland or one of the other. You kind of know. Do not be fearful in calling the authorities and saying, "Hey, you need to check this person out." We passed a law recently in the House of Representatives. I think it's passed in the Senate. If not, it's close to being passed. It looks at even these emergency decisions that can be made through the courts to take a gun away from someone who's been acting in such a way or speaking in such a way that you can think that that person is either going to be harmful to themselves or harmful to each other.

Brian Lehrer: Those weren't even political. Last thought. This is hypothetical and maybe you don't want to go there, but did you see that Zeldin said they would be looking for help for the person who attacked him? I couldn't help but wonder if the guy wasn't white if there would've been such a compassionate reaction about him being troubled and needing help as opposed to him being a terrorist. Plain and simple.

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Yes, so we know that that sort of disparity and double standard exists, but let us not conflate possible mental health issues with people trying to shoot people, massive killing because every country you know has people who have mental health problems, every country. They don't all have the kind of shootings and threats that we have because we have such access.

We have more weapons in the hands of people than we have people in this country. The United States of America needs to be that beacon on the hill that it's supposed to be. If you are white and you find yourself the perpetrator of these individual crimes or these mass murders, there seems to be a greater consideration of holding you accountable, putting you in custody alive, not dead. That's what I think of the racism.

Brian Lehrer: Congresswoman Bonnie Watson Coleman from New Jersey, thank you so much for being with us. Stay safe. Thank you.

Congresswoman Watson Coleman: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

 

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