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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. I want to end the show today by opening the phones to your appreciations for Archbishop Desmond Tutu. The man known as South Africa's moral conscience died on Sunday yesterday at the age of 90. In 1984, he won the Nobel Peace Prize for his stance against the racist system of government in South Africa known as apartheid.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu: Raise our hands and we say we will be free, all of us.
Brian Lehrer: At the end of that brutal racist system, Tutu became chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate the crimes of apartheid and begin the healing process. In 2014, Desmond Tutu and his daughter, Reverend Mpho Tutu, wrote a book together about forgiveness and the younger Reverend Tutu was on the show to discuss it. It was called The Book of Forgiving: The Fourfold Path for Healing Ourselves and Our World. I'm going to play about a minute and a half clip of the younger Reverend Tutu on this program, but I want to open the phones for your remembrances of Bishop Desmond Tutu.
Anybody listening, ever meet him, anybody listening originally from South Africa who wants to pay tribute to Desmond Tutu Archbishop on the occasion of his passing. 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692. Having come from the nation of the struggle against apartheid but also from the truth and reconciliation process that followed, Mpho Tutu put their philosophy in both personal and world affairs terms.
Reverend Mpho Tutu: We're getting at forgiveness writ small, forgiveness in the small interpersonal interactions that makes life in community, life in a family, life as a couple possible. It's impossible to have a healthy family if there is no forgiveness. We're constantly able to find ways of hurting each other deliberately or unintentionally, but also forgiveness writ large. When we look at the world stage, we can see where people have chosen the path of forgiveness and where people have instead chosen the path of revenge or retribution.
The examples of revenge and retribution are not examples of happy places or places that one would want to be living. Syria, Egypt at the moment come immediately to mind. Bosnia, Northern Ireland during the troubles come to mind as well, where generation after generation, the cycle of revenge is repeated on and on ad infinitum. We in South Africa chose a different path. Rwanda after the genocide has also chosen a different path and that's to the benefit of our societies.
Brian Lehrer: Mpho Tutu, daughter of Archbishop Desmond Tutu on this show in 2014 discussing the book about forgiveness that they wrote together. We'll take your remembrances of Archbishop Desmond Tutu right after this.
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Brian Lehrer on WNYC and remembering Archbishop Desmond Tutu who passed yesterday at the age of 90. Luthando in Long Island City, you're on WNYC. Thank you so much for calling in.
Luthando: Good morning, Brian. My name is Luthando. I am South African. Speaking of Mr. Desmond Tutu, long story short, I'm an exile kid. I was born in exile. The story of truth and reconciliation and the amount of work that he did for our nation, it is incredible, but as a South African and many South Africans will talk about how he talked about forgiveness and how that helped shape our nation.
It was very important work but I think that in so many ways, we tend to forget how flawed the TRC was in various ways. Overall, we're very thankful for the life and all the things that Desmond Tutu and other activists have done for our nation when it comes to forgiveness. Obviously, we wouldn't be where we are as a nation without that work.
Brian Lehrer: Luthando, thank you so much for your wonderful call. William in Manhattan, you're on WNYC. Hi, William.
William: Hi, my memories are of the lighterman. I was in awe of his and Dalai Lama's relationship. When they were together, they always cracked each other up. They were like six-year-olds trying to trip each other in a line. I thought how could they do that with all of what they've seen, and then in 2000, I got to work with him. I spent about an hour. Most of the time, he was this frail old man. At the time, I would've guessed he was 80 like my great-grandfather or something.
We had to take him up to the stage. He was the keynote speaker. He held onto my arm for this whole trip. Frail old man gets to the curtain, they announce him, we pull back the curtain, he steps up, and he grows a foot, [chuckles] and he has all this energy that you could feel it in the back of the room. I thought, "Man, that's how he can laugh," and he and the Dalai Lama can laugh because they're tapped into something. [chuckles]
Brian Lehrer: Something higher?
William: Something higher, yes.
Brian Lehrer: William, thank you so much for that story. Rick in Queens, you're on WNYC. Hi, Rick.
Rick Ulfik: Oh, this is Rick in Queens, Rick Ulfik from We, The World. I wanted to just express my appreciation for Desmond Tutu. He was a long-time supporter of my organization, We, The World. In fact, he actually came out of retirement last year to be on a summit, a panel for 11 days of global unity, and the panel was called The Summit on The Future of Humanity. He was on with Vandana Shiva and some other speakers. I wanted to read you a quote that he said during that panel. By the way, people can see this whole panel by going to we.net.
He talked about George Floyd, the protests, and he talked about the pandemic and other things, and especially about the fact that authorities and others were discrediting the message or trying to discredit the message of the Black Lives Matter protestors. He said, ''This is to be expected when those holding power and privilege don't want to let go of their advantage, so I ask, when will empathy become valued in our leaders and institutions? The people and communities are crying out for change. When will those with privilege and power allow themselves to imagine what it is like to walk in the shoes of the oppressed?"
Brian Lehrer: Rick, thank you so much for that. I'm glad you mentioned some of his more recent work because everybody talks about and we've been hearing for the last day so much about his work in South Africa obviously, but later in his life, he did speak in support of fossil fuel divestment, and gay rights, and Palestinian rights, and political prisoners around the world, including the United States. He did all of those things. Steve in Cincinnati, you're on WNYC. Hi, Steve.
Steve: Good morning, Brian, or actually almost afternoon. How are you?
Brian Lehrer: I'm doing okay, thanks.
Steve: Good.
Brian Lehrer: The show's almost over, so we've got about 30 seconds for you. You're going to get the last word.
Steve: I know. I will speak quickly. I am calling to mourn a friend. Archbishop Tutu first came to my church in Cincinnati. My father had a very close friend who was the archbishop in Cincinnati. I grew up Episcopalian, went through a divorce. He called the archbishop in South Africa, and two weeks later, I was on a plane and I stayed with him for about 10 days in his home. It was a completely unique experience.
One of the things that I wanted to talk about was the truth commission because I believe that we need to change something in this country that looks somewhat like it because if we don't, we're headed down a path of confrontation as it appears right now. I don't know the answers to redlining and all the things that are being done in communities of color, but something's got to--
Brian Lehrer: He had a model. Thank you very much. We'll go out with Bishop Desmond Tutu in his own words for just a few seconds. In 1996, he was asked how he'd like to be remembered.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu: He laughed, he cried, he was forgiven, he forgave.
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