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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. New study commissioned by the New Jersey Attorney General Matthew Platkin's office of 6 million traffic stops by state police from 2009 to 2021 found "Strong empirical evidence that NJSP, the New Jersey State Police, is engaged in enforcement practices that result in adverse treatment towards minority motorists". With us to talk about the study findings and how the attorney general plans to address them and the checkered history of the state police department on issues of race because this is not new, we're joined by Arya Sundaram, WNYC and Gothamist reporter covering Race and Justice, and the Reverend Dr. Charles Boyer, pastor of Greater Mount Zion AME Church in Trenton, and founder of the Faith-Rooted Organization, Salvation and Social Justice, and he is a member of the Public Safety Innovation Working Group put together by New Jersey Attorney General Platin. Hi, Arya. Welcome back to the show. Reverend Boyer, welcome.

Arya Sundaram: Thanks, Brian.

Rev. Dr. Charles Boyer: Thank you, Brian

Brian Lehrer: Arya, take us a little further into this. What kinds of discrepancies did the research find in the traffic stop data comparing by race?

Arya Sundaram: Sure. According to the study, which was an analysis of over 6 million New Jersey State police traffic stops between 2009 and 2021, state troopers were found to be more likely to stop but also search, arrest, and use force against Black and Latino drivers. To give you a little taste of what this looked like, they found that when the sun was out, and so skin color was more visible, that Black drivers were 9% more likely and Latino drivers were 16% more likely to be stopped compared to white drivers. The share of Black-Latino drivers has increased over the years to nearly half of all drivers stopped in 2021.

Brian Lehrer: Reverend Boyer, listening to that answer, this data goes back to 2009, and issues with the state police, I don't have to tell you, go back much further. A judge ruled back in 1996, and I know the station covered it at that time, that the New Jersey State Police practiced selective enforcement of the laws and targeted Black and Latino drivers. Starting in 1999, an outside monitor oversaw the agency because of racial profiling charges. Oh my goodness, this is still happening. Is this a surprise to you?

Rev. Dr. Charles Boyer: No, no, absolutely not. It's not a surprise to me nor anyone in the Black community. I grew up in New Jersey. During those years when the first scandal broke out, I absolutely myself as a young Black man growing up in New Jersey found myself pulled over many a times on Route 78 by state troopers. This is in no way new. My predecessor and mentor the then Reverend Reggie Jackson, now Bishop Jackson, was a clergy person dealing with this issue then, and here we are all over again continuing to deal with this issue and under this scrutiny from law enforcement.

Brian Lehrer: Arya, I see that the data set starts in 2009, which is when the outside monitoring of the department ended. I guess that was in place for a decade from 1999 to 2009. Is that why this data set starts there, like what happened in the New Jersey State Police once they weren't under a federal monitoring system anymore?

Arya Sundaram: I haven't gotten a hard answer about this back from the New Jersey State Police or the Attorney General's Office, or the researcher involved actually, but after this federal monitor ended, it was the Attorney General's job to continue to monitor whether or not the police were actually continuing to stop and treat drivers who are Black differently than members of other races. You can really look at it as the Attorney General's job now to monitor this and with the federal monitor at least currently no longer being in place.

Brian Lehrer: Do you want to comment on that, Reverend Boyer? Do you think something had gotten better from 1999 to 2009 and then got worse again when there wasn't explicit federal oversight?

Rev. Dr. Charles Boyer: Yes, well, I can't speak specifically if it ever got better. I don't know that that data exists at all. The one thing that I do think has gotten better is the fact that the AG's office has taken this on, has released it, and at the same time of releasing it, has had some proposals into ways to not only continue to monitor it, but to deal with things like discretion. I do want to give some nod to progress in that space because I do think that's critically important to point out. What I'm hopeful takes place here is that not only are things like discretion and things like that dealt with, but I also hope that there would be a deeper dive into policing at the municipal level because I thoroughly am convinced and willing to bet my life on it that if we were to do this type of scrutiny at the municipal level, we would find even more troubling statistics.

Brian Lehrer: Right. The many local police departments in New Jersey as opposed to the state police. Listeners, we can take some calls for our guests. This can definitely include your stories. If you have experience on either end of this, maybe you're a New Jersey State trooper, or maybe you're a driver in New Jersey who has experienced a traffic stop that you thought was racially discriminatory, call us and help us report this story at 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692, or text if you can't get through on the phone. Reverend Boyer, let me stay with you and ask you more about that working group that you're a part of put together by the State Attorney General to deal with some of these issues. You just said you want to give him some credit for coming up with some specific proposals regarding discretion and some other things. What do you see that is being done, and what do you think should be done?

Rev. Dr. Charles Boyer: Yes, I think there's multiple things going on out of the AG's office that ought to be commended, particularly this working group, for instance, came into existence in order to deal with a directive in light of the killing of Najee Seabrooks, who was a peace worker, a peace worker in the city of Patterson who was shot and killed by Patterson Police when he was having a mental health crisis. His team was seeking to actually help him. They were sought out by him and they weren't allowed to help him. The Attorney General's office put this task force together, this group to together to begin to talk about ways of working together between community-based peacekeeping groups, gun violence interventionists, and law enforcement. There's some really good things going on in that group and ways we're thinking about how community-led efforts around public safety are to interact and the rules of the road with law enforcement. We're seeing some very positive things come out of that. I'm hopeful that that grows beyond just the directive in which we were brought together. I think that there's a lot of interest among everybody, advocates and law enforcement alike, to see this live beyond that. I will also give credit in that there's been a decent amount of investment from this office around community-led solutions, particularly around things like gun violence and what needs to be done across the board, as I speak to things about the municipal level.

Things need to be expanded in regards to community-led response, non-law enforcement response to issues in communities. It is often these nonviolent quality-of-life health-related issues that take place in communities where officers have a tremendous amount of discretion and are coming in fully armed to deal with all kind of issues. That's where we see use of force incidents and racially-skewed and bias incidents take place. That's what I think needs to move forward, but I am hopeful given seeing up close some of the things that are coming out of the Attorney General's office.

Brian Lehrer: As we talk about this new report that found the New Jersey State Police are engaged in enforcement practices that result in adverse treatment toward minority motorists. With Charles Boyer, the Reverend Dr. Charles Boyer, pastor of Greater Mount Zion AME Church in Trenton. He is on the Public Safety Innovation working Group put together by the New Jersey Attorney General Matthew Platkin. The study was commissioned by Attorney General Platkin's office. Also with us, our Arya Sundaram, WNYC Gothamist reporter covering Race and Justice. Before we go to some phone calls, Arya, about the study results, I was curious that they found, for example, and tell me if I'm even reading this right, that Black and Latino motorists were stopped less frequently for speeding than white drivers, which seems curious, but stopped more for other things. Is that even an accurate read?

Arya Sundaram: Absolutely. The context behind all this is that speeding is actually statistically tied to traffic safety. It's part of a class of offenses called moving violations, so like reckless driving, for example, that are some of the leading causes for traffic crashes and deaths, which have been on the rise in recent years. They hit a 20-year high in 2022 actually across the country. Researchers generally and criminal justice reformers really want police to focus more on these more serious violations that are actually related to traffic safety as opposed to what are widely considered more minor violations like equipment issues. For example, overly tinted windows or maybe broken lights, for example, that have been found to be pretty negligible actually when it comes to roadway crashes and deaths. These kinds of more minor offenses have especially come under fire because of high-profile killings of drivers at the hands of police during traffic stops for minor offenses like this. In 2020, you might remember Daunte Wright, who was fatally shot by a police officer in Minnesota, after being pulled over just for registration tags, and he was unarmed.

Brian Lehrer: The statistical discrimination wasn't just in the number of stops, but in what ensued, kind of to the point you were just making about what can happen when a motorist of color is stopped for something small, searches, being required to leave the vehicle, and on from there. Right?

Arya Sundaram: Exactly. Not just who was stopped, but also there were disparities in who was searched, who was arrested, who was used forced against. To give you an example of that, Black motorists and Hispanic motorists were much more likely to be searched once they were stopped, Black motorists were 90% more likely to be searched once they were stopped, and Hispanic motorists were nearly 46% more likely to be stopped than white motorists. Actually, when they were searched, they were less likely to possess evidence than white motorists, interestingly enough. Black motorists were 10%, Hispanic motorists were nearly a quarter or less likely to have evidence. They're more likely to be asked to exit their vehicle to, more likely to be arrested, and also, the statistic that I found most staggering was they were more likely to experience use of force by law enforcement. Black motors were 130% more likely to experience force when stopped by New Jersey State Police.

Brian Lehrer: Let's take a phone call. Here's Lorna. Now I think Lorna's in Brooklyn, but wants to talk about driving on I-78-

Lorna: I am.

Brian Lehrer: -in Jersey. Hi, Lorna.

Lorna: Good afternoon. Good morning, sorry. Funny enough, I was on 78 on Friday and I saw some people pulled over and I thought about this because I see that all the time. There's thousands and thousands of motorists traveling both sides every day, and every time you look there is almost always a person of color that's pulled over. It doesn't only start in New Jersey, it starts from Pennsylvania. I remember they're talking about this 20 years ago, and nothing has changed. There was also an incident I remember where they were trying to say they were not being discriminatory where they actually went door to door to talk to the people and they had changed the race of the people to say white instead of Black so it wouldn't show that there was systematic profiling and racism, and as a woman of color, I've been profiled. I was driving a car that they were profiling, and the windows weren't tinted. I think it was a Dodge Charger or something like that, and I had rented it and it has Washington DC plates. From I left the rental agency in a local area, I was being followed by the police at a gas station. Then, I got on the highway, got on 78, I had the cruise control on, I was not speeding, but he sped up behind me, pushed me over to the other side. I stopped wanting to know, speeding. I said, "Officer, my cruise was on, it was at 65. I was not speeding." "Well, can I search the car?" I said, "No. If you want to search the car, please bring a search warrant."

We sat there forever. I guess he couldn't get one because as I said, I had gone to an auction and the only thing that was in the car was lots of vintage clothing and bags and hats, et cetera. It does happen a lot in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, 78 East and West Corridor. Thank you so much for highlighting this issue.

Brian Lehrer: Thank you for telling us about your experience just the other day. Rev. Boyer, let me turn to you on that. I'm guessing though, I can't see you wherever you are, that your head was nodding as you were listening to Lorna's call. I want to tie that back into some of the stats that Arya was just giving that the study from the Attorney General found, not only were drivers of color more likely to be arrested once stopped, they were 87% if they were Black motorists and 57%, if they were Latino motorists more likely to be arrested once stopped by New Jersey State Police than white motorists, so there are some of the numbers on that that are really large. Also, Black motorists were 130% and Hispanic motorists 28% more likely to experience force once stopped by New Jersey State Police relative to the controlled statistics. I don't want to get into the stats and have everybody's eyes glaze over. That speaks to real-world consequences of being stopped for small things more than other people, right?

Rev. Dr. Charles Boyer: Yes, absolutely. This data is consistent across law enforcement in New Jersey. Several years ago, the use of force data around all police departments in the state of New Jersey was examined. Similarly, same type of statistics, Black folks more likely to have force used against us, even though we were less likely to use force on police officers than white folks. The data here too, white folks when pulled over were more likely to have contraband or more likely to possess a weapon, more likely to possess illegal drugs than Black people, and so whether it's implicit or explicit bias, there's a culture within policing which is detrimental to the health and wellbeing of Black and brown people, and that is consistent.

Brian Lehrer: To Lorna's story specifically of the police wanting to search the car but all she had with her was vintage clothing from an auction she had been at, the Attorney General's findings include that when searched, Black and Latino motorists are less likely to possess evidence. Black motorists 10% less likely, Hispanic motorists 27% less likely to have evidence found when searched after a stop than white motorists, which I guess just means that they are more likely to be subjected to a search. Being viewed more with suspicion that would lead police officers to conclude that a search is warranted. You just mentioned explicit or explicit bias, Reverend. Which do you think it is? What's the mix? Presumably, if we can give them this much benefit of the doubt, state troopers are not cruising up and down the turnpike or wherever and thinking, "I'm going to stop some Black people unjustly." Is it largely a case of still rampant implicit bias that people somehow need to be trained out of?

Rev. Dr. Charles Boyer: Well, I think it's a mix of both. I don't know exactly what that mix is, but one being the eternal optimist, I really don't think every or maybe even the majority of police officers, state troopers that come in into work saying, "I'm going to pull over Black people." At the same time, I think given-- Also, a report recently released in how white nationalist groups seek to infiltrate law enforcement in a really coercive way is something to be understood within this context. I think it's both and neither can be there, and I think this is much deeper than just training. This really has to be a dismantling of the traditional ways that we think about public safety through policing when it comes to areas with massive amounts of discretion. To the points earlier made, we don't need a person with a gun pulling over people for very minor things. Unless there is some immediate threat to someone's life, we don't need a guy with a gun who has the ability to take someone's life having the ability, the power, the discretion, or the opportunity to do so.

Brian Lehrer: Arya, are there proposals on the table from the Attorney General to place more rules? If you can't train people so easily out of their implicit bias, then maybe they can put more rules around what the police are allowed to do to try to reduce the number of adverse effects of the implicit bias.

Arya Sundaram: Well, interestingly enough, actually, there was a report from the state Comptroller not that long ago that showed that the police were also actually skipping out on some of those racial discrimination and racial bias trainings that they were supposed to be doing interestingly enough, but the AG does have a plan to respond to some of these findings. The main one being that there's going to be this pilot program headed by the researcher that did this report and a whole other group of independent researchers to test out strategies to reduce racial disparities in traffic stops akin to what we're talking about right now. There'll probably be limits on how police enforce these kind of more minor offenses that we're talking about, so tickets that are disproportionately handed out to people of color, and also ones that don't affect street safety. The researchers are going to crunch data to figure out the specifics about all this, but what's interesting is that it's unlikely, at least according to the head researcher that I spoke to, that they'll outright ban police from stopping people from certain offenses, as some other local governments have done

like in LA and Philly, but what's more likely is that they're just going to issue stricter guidance and monitoring about what kinds of offenses troopers can and should focus on.

Brian Lehrer: Joni in Newark, one more call you're on WNYC. Hi, Joni.

Joni: Hi. I just wanted to point out that Newark, New Jersey, was issued a consent decree in 2014, at which time they changed a lot of practices and training and became exemplary to other police departments in New Jersey. We're not saying that everything is hunky-dory, but I am surprised and disturbed to hear about the state troopers, so maybe they need something similar.

Brian Lehrer: Joni, thank you. Reverend Boyer, are you aware of the consent decree regarding the Newark Police, and has it changed much?

Rev. Dr. Charles Boyer: Yes, absolutely. I'm glad the caller brought that up. She's 100,000% spot on. That decree was there. In fact, that decree, in many ways, is still in effect. Through that decree, a lot of things shifted in Newark to the point it's still not perfect, but there has been a major shift and also tremendous amount of work from Ras Baraka and his leadership and administration. To the points that I've earlier made, a major part of that mix has also been the onboarding of the Newark Community Street team, which does a tremendous amount of work within community and is a community-led response to a lot of what's going on there. They have actually lifted up a whole portion of their public safety apparatus alternative responses. To this point about trying to reduce the police footprint where it is not necessary, that is the most critical piece to all of this.

Brian Lehrer: Arya, I'm going to give you the last word in our last 30 seconds here and then we're out of time. This talk from both of you about the state considering ways that police wouldn't stop motorists for relatively minor things anymore, why have a person with a gun if you have some minor infraction because we see how it can escalate at the hands of the police, it is still a matter of public safety if somebody has not had their car inspected or maybe if a taillight is out or they're driving without a valid license plate, so what are the state police supposed to do in these alternative models in those cases?

Arya Sundaram: Sure, and I think that's part of the reason why the head researcher that I spoke to said that it's important that officers have some level of discretion in being able to decide whether or not offense is worthy of pulling someone over. Also, I think this is why I think the New Jersey Attorney General's office is taking a more data-driven approach as well, relying on researchers to actually figure out by testing out these different pilot policies, which of these offenses, if we stop for them, actually affect traffic safety and which don't. Also relying on a wealth of data and studies and research that has existed beforehand, but overall, like I said before, a lot of the data points to the fact that these equipment violations actually have a negligible impact on traffic safety compared to violations like speeding.

Brian Lehrer: Arya Sundaram covers Race and Justice for WNYC. The Reverend Dr. Charles Boyer is pastor of the Greater Mount Zion AME Church in Trenton, and he is a member of the Public Safety Innovation Working Group now put together by New Jersey Attorney General Matthew Platkin with regard to the study that found still so much disparity in how New Jersey state troopers stop people by race. Thank you both for joining us.

Arya Sundaram: Thank you, Brian.

Rev. Dr. Charles Boyer: Thank you.

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